Hornby announce TT:120

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, RichardT said:

Hear hear.  

This thread has in many ways been RMWeb at its best: a wide-ranging discussion ignoring self-appointed moderators. But there’s been rather too much of the dark side: the repeated assertion of individual prejudices and opinions as if they were universally-accepted truths.

 

Some people may genuinely find N “too small”, but others with seemingly no experience of N do seem to be taking SK’s assertion of that at face value, ignoring the fact that he’s got a new product to flog in a different scale - he’s not going to point out that most of the advantages he claims for TT also apply to N.

 

I think I said back in the Peco TT thread that I couldn’t see why anyone modelling the post 1968 GB railway would get anything from TT that they couldn’t get in N and more. There’s a large range of post-steam stock to completely modern standards of detail and performance available, much now sound-fitted; the scale allows full length trains in a modest space, and the fixed-formation nature of much post-steam operation means that the (horrible) Rapido coupling is less of an issue. (Or fit Microtrains/Dapol knuckle couplers).

But I also wondered if TT might be a game-changer for *steam-era* modelling in a small space.  I’m working on Alne (ECML north of York) in N, pre and post war eras.  It’s possible because of the number of right or almost right items made by Dapol, Farish and now Sonic (and less detailed locos from Union Mills).  Track is Wayne Kinney’s Finetrax, so it looks good.  BUT…even as a died-in-the-wool N gauge modeller I have to admit that steam sometimes doesn’t work as well in N  - both mechanically and in terms of presence and looks especially  with outside motion.  And then there’s shunting the goods yard…

 

TT wouldn’t help with fitting my mainline into my attic, but I can see the attraction of a decently-complex steam-era BLT in a reasonably compact space where the models have presence and are mechanically easier to work on to finer standards.  See the 3mm “Masham” that was on the circuit a few years ago…

 

 

RichardT

 

Those that are in N, with limited exceptions , don't find it too small. Those that aren't in N may well do...

 

That sound banal. But I come back to those market share statistics - 10% N gauge in Britain (2009) against 28%-18% N in other countries at various times.

 

Even in those countries N is not dominant. But in Britain it's share is particularly low , and 4mm is particularly high . Despite abundant evidence that many people really don't have the space needed for 4mm  layouts - see the micro/boxfile movement - 4mm is still overwhelmingly dominant and such shift as we;ve seen has been up , into 7mm

 

I don't believe TT-120 will ever equal or displace N . But TT-120 , delivered to the  standard of the best half  of N RTR , without the coarse scale legacy but with the extra presence of the larger size , with the extra mass and volume for better drive trains in very small prototypes, with a coupling system that permits shunting - might seal the deal for many people who are unable to do 4mm properly in the space they have , but for whom N gauge doesn't work.

 

Micros and box files shouldn't exist. Logically those people should be building a BLT or shunting plank in N. But they don't . They resort to desperate measures like boxfiles and micros to stay in 4mm

 

Detach enough of those people - and those few who have wandered into \N from sheer desperation without being really comfortable with it - and TT-120 could get itself 3-7% market share as an alternative small-scale to N ,

 

It's no great threat to N gauge because these are the people N has failed to attract over the last 20 years. Those in N  will, overwhelmingly, stay there because N wotks for them. It doesn't threaten your new product supply becausze Hornby aren't in N - the money for this tooling is diverted from Airfix , Arnold, and OO. This is an initiative to draw people into the hobby whio haven't got enough space for 4mm, and to shake loose those in 4mm who are clinging on by their fingertipd

 

I tsake your point about buiding a decent sizable BLT being an option in TT . But as someone who is not really into running trains round and round as the limit of my operating ambitions , the argument that you don't need to shunt after 1968 cos everything is block trains doesn't help.  Also , a 10 wagon block train done to Revolution standards will cost £600 with loco at current prices. (£45 per wagon + £150 loco)

 

My impression is that modern image N is considerably better than steam era N. I've seen D+ E layouts that are satisfying (eg Hedges Hill Cutting, Banbury, etc) . I can't think of a steam age one that's passed muster - and I've seen enough "trainset plus" N gauge steam not to want to attempt pre 1968 in N

Edited October 15, 2022 by Ravenser

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

Sure, it's moved forwards, everything has. But what N will never get past is its size. Some like it, for those it's great. But at the same time, I've heard more than a few N scalers comment at our displays at shows that had TT been available, they'd have chosen that over N.

 

I think there may be a limit in terms of absolute size. Possibly N gauge does better in other countries because their trains are physically bigger - so an N gauge model is also bigger

 

A 17'6" British wagon may just be too small an object in N for many people , whereas a US 40' box car  in N isn't. Double the volume of the object - and sudden;ly you're cooking with gas

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, gr.king said:

If that's the actual track system on the demo layout then it's yet another example of hideously unrealistic "anything will do" stuff for the UK market, especially for the steam era. Rail section like huge girders and short spindly sleepers crammed far too closely together...

 

Use Peco  code 55 instead . Nobody uses Hornby Setrack on a serious layout in 4mm

 

That track looks like some other country's real track to me (US maybe). Mind you, I'm not convinced commercial N gauge track is really better, even at code 55

 

 

[andythenorth]

10 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

Also , a 10 wagon block train done to Revolution standards will cost £600 with loco at current prices. (£45 per wagon + £150 loco)

I like Revolution and what they do. 🙂

 

But the Hornby TT:120 wagon pricing seems reasonable at £17.50 for a HAA.  At that price I wouldn't be expecting Revolution levels of quality 🤑

[luke_stevens]

1 hour ago, gr.king said:

If that's the actual track system on the demo layout then it's yet another example of hideously unrealistic "anything will do" stuff for the UK market, especially for the steam era. Rail section like huge girders and short spindly sleepers crammed far too closely together...

 

Yes, it looks blooming awful in person too, but I didn't say that to SK! But I did show him photos of the diorama that I've been building (on the Peco page) and talked about renumbering the A4 and why... I thought it was a good idea for him to know there is an actual modeller who is "involved" :)

 

L

[Hroth]

The set track is chunky, but it has to be robust for everyday use. If Hornby are targetting new entries then the track will suffer enthusiastic handling and has to be solid enough not to break.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

I feel that part of the problem with N in the UK is that far too many of us calculate value-for-money on the basis of cubic capacity per £ rather than recognising that many things are actually harder to do smaller.

 

John

Edited October 15, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[JohnR]

39 minutes ago, luke_stevens said:

 

Yes, it looks blooming awful in person too, but I didn't say that to SK! But I did show him photos of the diorama that I've been building (on the Peco page) and talked about renumbering the A4 and why... I thought it was a good idea for him to know there is an actual modeller who is "involved" :)

 

L

 

Is the nameplate on the A4 just a temporary pre-production effort? Because I cant recall seeing any photos of it with a blue nameplate. 

[Hroth]

As far as bringing Hornby TT:120 to the general public goes, there is a new series of "Hornby, A Model World" due to go to air on the Yesterday channel at the beginning of 2023.  Whats the betting that there'll be plenty of mentions throughout the series to advertise TT:120?

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, Hroth said:

As far as bringing Hornby TT:120 to the general public goes, there is a new series of "Hornby, A Model World" due to go to air on the Yesterday channel at the beginning of 2023.  Whats the betting that there'll be plenty of mentions throughout the series to advertise TT:120?

 

 

I doubt we'll be able to move for them. 😉

 

[britishcolumbian]

I'm not overly impressed with the track, either, and haven't considered using it. I've not yet seen it in person but for the time being I'm not sure about the Peco track yet, simply because of the limited range; I'm going to see what can be worked out as far as a representation of YPM goes with Peco track and with Tillig, and see from there; even if the Continental appearance of Tillig doesn't really fit the British setting, if it works out better in practical terms, it's a compromise I can live with, at least for the time being.

[luke_stevens]

22 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

Is the nameplate on the A4 just a temporary pre-production effort? Because I cant recall seeing any photos of it with a blue nameplate. 

 

I think it is final version. I'm not sure about the nameplate. I believe some loco based in the North East Scottish region got light blue nameplates. I've checked the Fox transfers website and the do offer the plate in light blue so I suspect it is correct. It seems the story of BR A4 nameplate colours is a murky one! Supposedly locomotives could have different colour plates on each side... I'm going to stay well away when I rename my A4.

 

L

Edited October 15, 2022 by luke_stevens

[JohnR]

10 minutes ago, luke_stevens said:

 

I think it is final version. I'm not sure about the nameplate. I believe some loco based in the North East region got light blue nameplates. I've checked the Fox transfers website and the do offer the plate in light blue so I suspect it is correct.

 

L

 

Just need someone to do them in TT:120

[luke_stevens]

4 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

Just need someone to do them in TT:120

 

I'm going to ask 247 Development, I just haven't got round to it yet :)

 

L

 

Update: have now e-mailed 247. I'll post any response.

Edited October 16, 2022 by luke_stevens

[Jeff Smith]

Well, I joined the club as an overseas member using my Humbrol US sign on......  There has been no message that I have seen about overseas shipping.  Presumably VAT free....

 

My interest might be an 08, would prefer in green though.  Perhaps a small WR terminus relegated to goods only....

[britishcolumbian]

47 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Well, I joined the club as an overseas member using my Humbrol US sign on......  There has been no message that I have seen about overseas shipping.  Presumably VAT free....

 

My interest might be an 08, would prefer in green though.  Perhaps a small WR terminus relegated to goods only....

When placing my preorder I noted that once I entered my shipping address, VAT was removed, so yes, it will be VAT free.

 

I only preordered an 08 though for the moment: I was going to include some vans as well, but for the preorder each item is treated as a separate shipment, and I'm not prepared to pay £30 S&H for a £20 van. Once product is available for immediate shipment, I'll place larger orders for multiple items.

[RichardT]

3 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Micros and box files shouldn't exist. Logically those people should be building a BLT or shunting plank in N. But they don't . They resort to desperate measures like boxfiles and micros to stay in 4mm

Or…they like building box files and micros, and enjoy the challenge of getting the maximum size models in the minimum space. People build box files and micros in N as well!

 

Sorry, drifting OT now.

 

RichardT

Edited October 15, 2022 by RichardT
Spelling

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

The set track is chunky, but it has to be robust for everyday use. If Hornby are targetting new entries then the track will suffer enthusiastic handling and has to be solid enough not to break.

 

 

Indeeed and in this it is no different from Hornby's 00 offering. Those who want greater realism will undoubtedly use Peco or Tillig (though Tillig does look rather Germanic) and those with more finescale ambittions will build their own. That's been the reality of the hobby since the 1950s. 

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, RichardT said:

Or…they like building box files and micros, and enjoy the challenge of getting the maximum size models in the minimum space. People build box files and micros in N as well!

 

Sorry, drifting OT now.

 

RichardT

That’s why I build them (and why most micro layout builders seem to) - for the challenge. It also allows you to have multiple small layouts in the space that a larger one would take up, which can then be in different scales or based on different prototypes. The fact that they can generally be stored in appropriately sized (often stackable) plastic boxes is also an advantage.

[Michanglais]

I'm a bit late to the game on this one - I live in France but model Swiss N and HO. I've been thinking about swapping my Swiss HO for French HO. The timing of UK TT couldn't come better for me.

 

I don't have the space for a permanent layout so it's Kato Unitrack on the floor (when I just want to watch trains going in circles...) and dioramas dotted around the flat.

 

Tillig produce a limited range of 'Kato-style', ballasted, snap-track in TT so I could 'play trains' whenever I wanted.

 

However, I'm not getting to my point:

 

The images on Hornby's site show certain vehicles (most importantly in my case the Mk3s) as having NEM pockets (well done) but they seem to be bogie-mounted (not well done).

 

For proper close-coupling, the coupler needs to be body-mounted with a pivot mechanism. Hornby have not been good at doing this in OO - are they going to make the same error in TT? Interestingly enough, the Mk2s look like they have the couplers body-mounted...

 

Anyone got any ideas on this one?

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

 

 

[Padishar Creel]

43 minutes ago, Michanglais said:

I'm a bit late to the game on this one - I live in France but model Swiss N and HO. I've been thinking about swapping my Swiss HO for French HO. The timing of UK TT couldn't come better for me.

 

I don't have the space for a permanent layout so it's Kato Unitrack on the floor (when I just want to watch trains going in circles...) and dioramas dotted around the flat.

 

Tillig produce a limited range of 'Kato-style', ballasted, snap-track in TT so I could 'play trains' whenever I wanted.

 

However, I'm not getting to my point:

 

The images on Hornby's site show certain vehicles (most importantly in my case the Mk3s) as having NEM pockets (well done) but they seem to be bogie-mounted (not well done).

 

For proper close-coupling, the coupler needs to be body-mounted with a pivot mechanism. Hornby have not been good at doing this in OO - are they going to make the same error in TT? Interestingly enough, the Mk2s look like they have the couplers body-mounted...

 

Anyone got any ideas on this one?

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

 

 

 

Hallo,

If the stock has buffers then you really do need a body mounted close coupling gate for ultra close coupling.

 

I have two Farish Class150s and the vehicles are not buffered with a bogie mounted coupling pocket. I use a Farish short shank and a Eichhorn short shank (which is slightly longer) and the units can also run in push mode on the return curves which are 1st radius and even over a section which is slightly tighter than 1st radius.

 

es grüßt

pc 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Padishar Creel
Grammar

[Hobby]

10 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

Is the nameplate on the A4 just a temporary pre-production effort? Because I cant recall seeing any photos of it with a blue nameplate. 

 

This from an LNER Forum, it seems the answer is yes and also gives a reason you may not have seen it!

 

"so from my humble files I can advise that the following have definite Colour-Photo evidence of blue-background plates circa 1958- 1961

60004 **
60011
60027
60031

the remaining Haymarket A4s (9/12/24) certainly had black or red backed plates in BR days but as yet no trace of blue

** I cant help but mention this one seems to have been the rarest Streak; carved on various parts of Darlington station's infrastructure was the legend "I died here waiting for Willie Whitelaw" (sic)"

 

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10456

[009 micro modeller]

Not a very good photo unfortunately due to glass reflection, but does show it.

 

 

I think given time a better appearance could be achieved with the scenery and ballasting, even with code 80 track (the same rail size as I use in 009 anyway), so I’m not worried about that aspect.

 

I asked about the minimum radius and have confirmed it’s 267mm (10 1/2 inches). This is only slightly more than the 9 inch minimum generally used in 009 and N (obviously people have been below this with stuff like trams and 4 wheel industrial stock) although interestingly a lot of stuff these days (especially if it’s larger and finer) requires 12 inch.

 

It’s interesting but I’m not sure I have the money and time to commit to it at the moment, or a clear plan for what to build.

[RAYTHEROCK]

Is it not time to stop sniping at Hornby's TT project? We all know it is not aimed at us, serious modellers mostly with stock of 00. Let's just sit on the sidelines and watch. If it takes off great, perhaps the resulting cash flow will produce something new in 00 for their old supporters. If not, onto the scrap heap to join the live steam, Steampunk etc, and hopefully will not bring Hornby down. If it does there will be an opening for some of the smaller more enterprising producers, and we can sit back smugly saying "told you so"", but without Schadenfreude.

 

Enough criticism and nit-picking for the time being.

[whart57]

9 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Indeeed and in this it is no different from Hornby's 00 offering. Those who want greater realism will undoubtedly use Peco or Tillig (though Tillig does look rather Germanic) and those with more finescale ambittions will build their own. That's been the reality of the hobby since the 1950s. 

 

The likes of British Finescale may think of moving into that area. BF already make point kits for N and has done for many years, and it has recently started supplying the 3mm Society. If Hornby do seed the market then the smaller manufacturers will follow.