Hornby announce TT:120

[Jeff Smith]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Otherwise, the UK model railway scene will remain as parochial as it's always been.

 

I believe this is not necessarily because of OO.  Even if GB had adopted HO there would still be parochialism associated with British outline models.

[Dunsignalling]

6 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

I believe this is not necessarily because of OO.  Even if GB had adopted HO there would still be parochialism associated with British outline models.

True, but it didn't stop Fleischmann and Rivarossi having a dabble in OO and they produced some nice items. Unfortunately, they adopted different compromises to "our" manufacturers, so their models were out-of-proportion for 4mm scale. 

 

Had they understood the UK market better, today's scene might be quite different, but I feel the memory of their experiences may live long across Europe.

 

John 

[andythenorth]

1 hour ago, britishcolumbian said:

I'm still up for putting a fiver on it, and CAD to GBP at that.

How about a bet that this thread goes to at least page 127?

 

And that those 40 pages will add almost nothing, but just repeat the same cyclical discussion.  🔁

 

Including (of course) people saying 'please stop repeating'. 

 

'Reply All' anyone? 😛

 

At least we have a video of some actual TT:120 from Gaydon now, thanks to the OP of that one 🙂

Edited October 30, 2022 by andythenorth

[dagrizz]

I was at Gaydon today and was going to look at the new TT stuff from Hornby, but it seems that you had to sign up for something or other to get entry into the TT room.

 

Are Hornby trying to discourage people from their new model range?  Why the **** should I have to sign up to something to look it?

 

I may be an old **** but if I'm going to buy something, then I want to see it first without getting headmaster's SK permission. 

 

 

 

 

[britishcolumbian]

51 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

How about a bet that this thread goes to at least page 127?

Hahaha no bet here. I'm surprised it's not already there.

[newbryford]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

SK apparently informed someone at Gaydon that all Hornby models currently planned for TT:120 have previously appeared in their OO range.

 

If that's so, it would be sensible for others to stick to prototypes outside that list.

 

 

 

TT:120 Titfield Thunderbolt Lion anyone?

 

 

[Les1952]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I've been comparing what I've spent/am expecting to spend with others vs what I'll be spending with Hornby on my core interests this year and next. Hornby don't account for even 10% of the total. If I'm at all typical, it explains why Hornby see a need to spread their wings into something other than OO.

 

I wish Hornby lots of luck with this venture, whoever it's aimed at, but I fear that may not be enough, with serious impacts on the entire group if it does badly.  

 

John

 

 

 

The first paragraph indicates you are more typical of RMWeb than of the market Hornby is aiming TT120 at.  

 

I'm not the target market, either- being retired with a collection started in 1963 and traded up over the years.  Where I might come into Hornby's sight over this project is the nostaglia element- my first train set at age 11 was a secondhand Triang TT layout with a Windsor Castle, 3 chocolate and cream Mark 1s, a bogie well wagon and a BR standard 20 ton brake van, together with an oval of brown track and a siding.

 

I'm not really returning to my roots- I'm very heavily into N Gauge at the moment- Croft Spa has about 120 locos and 300 items of rolling stock, and Bregenbach is well stocked with Continental locos - overstocked in effect but there are enough spares to run the layout at a show even if pantographs are snagged and bent to the state of needing to go home to the workbench.  I also have an overstocked OO shunting plank (NO PLACE) plus a few showcase queens.  So why go TT?

 

Simple- my RSI and arthritis will take me out of N before many more years have passed, and I don't have the space, transport or the operators to build a roundy-roundy in OO.  TT however is a different matter.  Radius 1 would allow me a NO PLACE PLUS as a roundy-roundy on a 2 foot wide board, and a 2 foot 6 wide board would build me a Darlington-area branch- where I can remember at least one A4 shunting Gieiveson & Whitwell's coal drops running in from Darlington Works.  Both if eight feet long - or even ten feet- would go in the present car, and both would require two operators in the team rather than Croft Spa's four- I've been to the funerals of four of my operating team since starting exhibiting my layouts in 2012.

 

The numbers going into Hornby's TT120 room at Gaydon today would indicate a high level of interest- you had to become a TT120 club member to be allowed in.  Faces coming out were on the whole brightly lit up and enthusiastic- and as I said earlier mainly younger than average for the hobby.

 

OO is moving out of reach of young modellers- hikes in energy and mortgages plus inflation running 5% or 6% ahead of wage rises have helped see to that.  TT is more affordable - even the Roco BR44 I'm drooling over on the Gaugemaster site is well over £100 cheaper than the equivalent in HO.  The present high price of OO models is only sustainable while those of us with deep enough pockets are around to buy them.  The next generation have more calls on their finances.

 

Les

... who didn't really have a lot of money for modelling until paying off the mortgage and Mr Simon and his sister finishing University.

[Les1952]

23 minutes ago, dagrizz said:

I was at Gaydon today and was going to look at the new TT stuff from Hornby, but it seems that you had to sign up for something or other to get entry into the TT room.

 

Are Hornby trying to discourage people from their new model range?  Why the **** should I have to sign up to something to look it?

 

I may be an old **** but if I'm going to buy something, then I want to see it first without getting headmaster's SK permission. 

 

 

 

 

 

From Hornby's perspective sufficient thought otherwise for the room to have a queue to get in a lot of the time I was around- I was early and went in first thing when it was quiet.  It was signing up for a year's free membership of the TT120 club.  

 

Another who isn't the target market.

 

Les

[Roy L S]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

 

British N has around 10% of the UK r-t-r market and I think Hornby will want/need TT:120 to get half way to that figure within 3-5 years.

 

 

More like 15-20% is my understanding.

 

Roy

[MartinRS]

15 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The economic climate undoubtedly presents the most serious threat to Hornby's ambitions, but I hadn't even considered a possibility of the launch being delayed beyond Christmas. Would they have gone public with TT:120 had there been a real risk of that?

 

As you point out, were that to happen, it would throw a very big spanner in the works of SK's aim to get new people into the hobby and could push the window for "volume" sales back to Christmas 2023.

 

That might well put your "if it can survive for three years or so" in considerable doubt, let alone any idea of TT:120 ever dominating the hobby. For it to do that huge numbers of current modellers would have to abandon OO in its favour, not just have a dabble.

 

By no means all OO modellers have intolerable/unmanageable space issues and not all of us want "roundy-round" layouts. We all grumble that the odd extra foot would be handy but work around it creatively. Those who found that impossible, will have already switched to the likes of N or narrow gauge, or left the hobby altogether if none of the alternatives on offer appealed. All that said, any migration out of OO that has occurred among my acquaintances seems to have gone the other way, into 7mm scale. 

 

John

 

I'm not suggesting that huge numbers of current modellers would have to abandon OO for TT:120 to succeed, and potentially overtake 00 in market share. The emotional and financial attachment people have to their chosen scale is evident in many of the various threads covering TT:120, though some have said, 'If  I was younger I would be changing to TT:120'.

 

All that is needed is sufficient people, new to the hobby, to choose TT:120 and stick with it. I think anyone new to the hobby, unless they come from a rail enthusiast background is likely to be forgiving of scale inaccuracies. (I'm thinking of children playing with a train set. That's how I started out). When a small percentage of them start modelling (however you define it) and learn more about the hobby they are more likely to demand authenticity. I just don't see why informed nascent modellers would want to change to N or OO given the scale-gauge discrepancies inherent in both.

 

You make the point that not all modellers have space issues. That is obviously true though I imagine most young parents, wanting to introduce their children to railway modelling (or playing with trains) are the people whose circumstances mean that only a limited amount of space is available. I don't see  that changing. If Hornby can popularise TT:120, and maintain production of their TT:120 range until the economy improves I can't see anything but a future in which TT:120 takes more and more market share. Future generations of railway modellers might wonder why their predecessors put up with those strange scale-gauge inaccuracies.

 

You comment about not all modellers wanting "roundy-round" layouts is also accurate. I hope you would agree that my suggestion that a U shape baseboard having an accessibility advantage over a baseboard with an operating well is just as applicable to a terminus-fiddle yard set up. The additional benefit of TT:120 would be that the width of the baseboards would be such that everything would be within easy reach of the operator.

[jjb1970]

6 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

I gave up on modelling with anything Japanese when all of a sudden I couldn't get hold of Tomix track to build Bregenbach- Japan just about stopped exporting due to Covid.  I ended up with Fleischmann track- not as good, and will use Peco mainly in future.  As to Japanese trains, too many multiple units.

 

Les

 

 

Japanese trains are what they are and their passenger services transitioned to MU operation many decades ago with the exception of the blue trains which operated overnight limited services (though they also developed sleeper and overnight seating MUs many decades ago like the Series 583 (which is a bit of a cult design in Japan). In terms of operation, it remains the finest railway system I've ever used, and by quite a margin. Standards of reliability, punctuality and presentation are in a different world to most, even if they tend to avoid ostentatious luxury. For example I find the Chinese high-speed trains more luxurious and better appointed than the Japanese Shinkansen trains, but the Shinkansen remains the benchmark in my experience for excellence in operation. That said they have very intensive freight operations with some rather impressive freight locomotives.

On Tomix track, I use Kato Unitrack, I order from Japan and even in England I ordered Japanese trains from Japan. Japan online model shops offer excellent service and in my experience are completely reliable.

[jjb1970]

I have to say, limiting entry into a TT:120 room to people joining a club is not a marketing decision I'd make, but then again I won't work in marketing. I can see a logic when they're offering free club membership which does come with some good benefits but at the same time I am sick of ending up on junk mailing lists and such like. It seems to be increasingly normal to be asked to sign up to access benefits, followed by unsubscribing after getting that benefit for something and seeing no further point in remaining on their list. For me it would be much more logical to encourage people to go in the TT room and then say 'hey, why don't you join our club now, it's free!!', but that's just me.

[MartinRS]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

I have to say, limiting entry into a TT:120 room to people joining a club is not a marketing decision I'd make, but then again I won't work in marketing. I can see a logic when they're offering free club membership which does come with some good benefits but at the same time I am sick of ending up on junk mailing lists and such like. It seems to be increasingly normal to be asked to sign up to access benefits, followed by unsubscribing after getting that benefit for something and seeing no further point in remaining on their list. For me it would be much more logical to encourage people to go in the TT room and then say 'hey, why don't you join our club now, it's free!!', but that's just me.

I suspect the reason is to get the email every potential customer who walks through their magic door!

[Johan DC]

9 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I've been comparing what I've spent/am expecting to spend with others vs what I'll be spending with Hornby on my core interests this year and next. Hornby don't account for even 10% of the total. If I'm at all typical, it explains why Hornby see a need to spread their wings into something other than OO.

 

 

What is typical? I just bought some Accurascale couldron wagons, because I really wanted one of their products, I like their style and what they make looks great. If I am typical however, they'll soon be out of business, unless they start making a lot of pre war East Coast rolling stock. And seeing their succes with the Deltic (I really should have gotten one) not very likely!

Edited October 31, 2022 by Johan DC

[Hroth]

7 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

TT:120 Titfield Thunderbolt Lion anyone?

 

 

 

Deary, deary me!

 

Perhaps Rapido will produce a TT set for TT120, they've got the CADs already and it's just a matter of shrinking things, according to some folk.  An ideal project for the Xmas '23 market...

 

Quick! Before Hornby jump in, they're already planning Phase 9!

 

😉

 

[Hroth]

By the way, has anyone had a look at Hornbys other involvement in TT?   Arnold, their Continental brand, has a number of items, and the locos are little jewels, priced accordingly. The cheapest, an 0-4-0 diesel shunter is in the same price bracket as Hornbys Class 08, the steam outline locos are double the price...

 

If nothing else, Hornby have an additional outlet for UK outline locos that have a Continental application or appeal. Their involvement in TT:120 may be more synergistic than the doubting Thomases may be prepared to acknowledge.

 

https://uk.arnoldmodel.com/

 

[Trainnoob]

On 29/10/2022 at 21:44, jonnyuk said:

Saw the range today at Gaydon. I have to say I was on the fence, looked interesting and could see the appeal but part of me thought, nope.

however seeing the range in person I’m sold, the loco’s are the perfect blend between detail and robustness, I picked them up and not once felt something would drop off, but at the same time enough separately fitted detail to look good.

I’ve had n scale before and to be honest it just p*ssed me off with how difficult it was to put stuff on the rails, to hook rolling stock together etc, the slightly larger scale really appeals to me.

with everything they have for launch would suit me, new era and location to model. Highlight for me though as to be the 08, stunning little loco.

 

simon did say (and he said it many times), this is not replace OO, never will and it’s not the intention, he kept going back to size constraints of OO in the modern world, uni students, folk in flats etc.

 

He did also the sets might be after Xmas now, they spotted a mistake on the Loco which they fixed but they missed the Christmas boat by a week, they are trying to fly them over.

also the OO hst pullmans are on the boat and be here for Xmas (makes me a happy bunny).

the smoke generating loco’s will be here in may.

 

To my untrained eye the painting on those steam locomotives look terribly plasticy and toy-like. I sure hope that's not what your getting for 100+ pound.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Trainnoob

[Hroth]

2 minutes ago, Trainnoob said:

To my untrained eye that painting into those steam locomotives look terrible.

 

Do be aware that you're looking at pre-production samples and the photos are shots kindly provided by an RMweb member who visited the show they were exhibited at.  Close-ups are always unforgiving, especially in a live situation.

 

[CF MRC]

8 minutes ago, Trainnoob said:

To my untrained eye the painting on those steam locomotives look terribly plasticy and toy-like. I sure hope that's not what your getting for 100+ pound.

I had thought the painting and lining was excellent excepting, of course, the plasticky driving wheels on the  A1s - which are a known fault. 
 

Tim

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

 

Deary, deary me!

 

Perhaps Rapido will produce a TT set for TT120, they've got the CADs already and it's just a matter of shrinking things, according to some folk.  An ideal project for the Xmas '23 market...

 

Quick! Before Hornby jump in, they're already planning Phase 9!

 

😉

 

Hornby may be planning Phase 9 but there's no guarantee reality will get that far. I'll start believing in it when everything in Phases 1 to 4 has actually been released.

 

That also needs to be achieved, without Hornby being forced to back-track on their direct selling policy. Any dealer that, a year or two hence, receives an email containing something like, "we invite you to join in this great success" should treat it with extreme caution! 😇

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I have to say, limiting entry into a TT:120 room to people joining a club is not a marketing decision I'd make, but then again I won't work in marketing. I can see a logic when they're offering free club membership which does come with some good benefits but at the same time I am sick of ending up on junk mailing lists and such like. It seems to be increasingly normal to be asked to sign up to access benefits, followed by unsubscribing after getting that benefit for something and seeing no further point in remaining on their list. For me it would be much more logical to encourage people to go in the TT room and then say 'hey, why don't you join our club now, it's free!!', but that's just me.

I was at Gaydon yesterday,to find half of the Hornby stand …OO gauge….in the main area of the show and the other half containing the TT release in a roped off separate room guarded by a lone sentinel. She would admit only those prepared to commit to receiving its secrets ( ? ? )  and thus presumably becoming a devotee with an unspoken commitment to start all over again and either sell or pass on models and layouts assembled in OO over many years.

 

All I wanted was a look and a word or two with SK out of pure interest .I had after all paid my entrance fee.

I politely declined what I consider to be a dubious and cack handed attempt at marketing .

 

To be perhaps fair and balanced,Bachmann’s Collectors Club has used a similar approach…but this is an entirely different ball game.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Hroth]

52 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Hornby may be planning Phase 9 but there's no guarantee reality will get that far. I'll start believing in it when everything in Phases 1 to 4 has actually been released.

 

That also needs to be achieved, without Hornby being forced to back-track on their direct selling policy. Any dealer that, a year or two hence, receives an email containing something like, "we invite you to join in this great success" should treat it with extreme caution! 😇

 

 

 

I feel that you missed the point of my riposte to newbryfords post...

 

If you feel SO negative about the Hornby TT:120 initiative, why don't you stop haunting the thread?  After all, you have made your views explicitly clear, and if things go belly-up in a couple of years, then you'll have the satisfaction of returning to say "I told you so!".

 

At present, you just sound like a one-note tune.

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Hroth
apologies to newbryford for cutting him in two, then Capitalising the result...

[Hobby]

5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I have to say, limiting entry into a TT:120 room to people joining a club is not a marketing decision I'd make, but then again I won't work in marketing. I can see a logic when they're offering free club membership which does come with some good benefits but at the same time I am sick of ending up on junk mailing lists and such like.

 

It also limited numbers who could enter. Like Les i was in there when it opened so had a good view of the models and was able to talk to Simon about them. Later on when i walked past it was crowded and there was a queue to get in. Just imagine how bad it would have been if they'd have opened it up to everyone and there would have been crowds of people with no interest in the scale and only there to knock it, rather like this thread at times, at least the form filling got rid of most of the uninterested! I felt they did the right thing!

 

1 hour ago, Trainnoob said:

To my untrained eye the painting on those steam locomotives look terribly plasticy and toy-like. I sure hope that's not what your getting for 100+ pound.

 

Didn't to me, they looked quite good, but as pointed out they were pre-production samples.

 

[NHY 581]

As a lifelong 00 modeller and Hornby customer, the TT launch by Hornby is not one that I have greeted with open arms. 

 

The main reason for this was the decision not to supply dealers. I'm old school.. I prefer to see a new product, expecially one that, to me, is so new and left of field. 

 

I'm intrigued by this but far from sold on it and thus one that I cannot welcome. I am that doubting Thomas........er sheep, whatever. 

 

So, the best place I could actually see thus range and 'get a feel for it' is at a show.....but, hang on......

 

5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I have to say, limiting entry into a TT:120 room to people joining a club is not a marketing decision I'd make, but then again I won't work in marketing. I can see a logic when they're offering free club membership which does come with some good benefits but at the same time I am sick of ending up on junk mailing lists and such like. It seems to be increasingly normal to be asked to sign up to access benefits, followed by unsubscribing after getting that benefit for something and seeing no further point in remaining on their list. For me it would be much more logical to encourage people to go in the TT room and then say 'hey, why don't you join our club now, it's free!!', but that's just me.

 

Um.....

 

14 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

I was at Gaydon yesterday,to find half of the Hornby stand …OO gauge….in the main area of the show and the other half containing the TT release in a roped off separate room guarded by a lone sentinel. She would admit only those prepared to commit to receiving its secrets ( ? ? )  and thus presumably becoming a devotee with an unspoken commitment to start all over again and either sell or pass on models and layouts assembled in OO over many years.

 

All I wanted was a look and a word or two with SK out of pure interest .I had after all paid my entrance fee.

I politely declined what I consider to be a dubious and cack handed attempt at marketing .

 

 

Yes, exactly. That would have been my position

 

2 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

It also limited numbers who could enter. Like Les i was in there when it opened so had a good view of the models and was able to talk to Simon about them. Later on when i walked past it was crowded and there was a queue to get in. Just imagine how bad it would have been if they'd have opened it up to everyone and there would have been crowds of people with no interest in the scale and only there to knock it, rather like this thread at times, at least the form filling got rid of most of the uninterested! I felt they did the right thing!

 

 

 

Totally disagree with your words in bold. I arguably  fit into that 'category but you should not exclude the curious.......there will be a percentage who might well have been convinced of TT's worth and may dip a toe into it. However, like others quoted above, I do not want to hand over my personal information on spec before I can even view a product. 

 

 

Therefore, my lack of interest is not being helped by Hornby's denial to the general public of access to their product..............

 

It's like going into your favourite restaurant where you've gone for years and suddenly  only being allowed to eat your usual meal, from your usual menu. If you want try something new,  it's now in a  different part of the restaurant which you can only access after handing over certain information........you wouldn't bother would you........

 

Rob

[dagrizz]

So I can't see the TT range in my local model shop. And I can't see the range at the few large shows where Hornby have a stand because I have to join a club first. 

How am I supposed to see it at my own leisure? Online does not count - I buy things I can see in the flesh first. I can't help thinking that Hornby are shrinking their potential customer base with these marketing tactics.

 

Graham