Hornby announce TT:120

[Phil Parker]

42 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Hornby is a poorly run company. Why should I take a risk with my money? 

 

You are not "risking your money" any more than you do when you buy anything else online. There are provisions in place to offer protection such as the distance selling regulations and your local Trading Standards department.
If you don't want to get into TT:120, that's fine. Stick the thread on ignore and forget about it. Go and do some modelling instead.

[britishcolumbian]

26 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

If you don't want to get into TT:120, that's fine. Stick the thread on ignore and forget about it. Go and do some modelling instead

Really. Like, should I go to the 00 forums and start complaining about it? I've got better things to do.

[HExpressD]

1 hour ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Hornby is a poorly run company. Why should I take a risk with my money? 

 

I'm not sure where the risk lays really? If you buy something in stock in my experience it gets shipped within a day so unless the company folds in the few hours between placing an order and despatch (which would be unfathomably unlucky) you'd be fine, and if you're placing a pre-order no money is taken until the item arrives into stock, so again no capital risk if the went under during development. 

[PeterStiles]

5 minutes ago, HExpressD said:

where the risk lays really?

I fear he's talking about the deep emotional risk of deciding to pick TT up and then be suddenly let down by a heartless company promising to deliver something that they fail to, and all his hopes and dreams will have been shattered and the next you know you're tripping over him outside the station.

 

Or he could just be ignored and we'll get one with planning and building our next layouts whilst he whinges on.

[Hobby]

Perhaps we should have two threads, one to actually discuss Hornby TT1:120 (say this one!) and another for those who just wish to make pointless posts dissing Hornby because they don't like them (or SK!) and have no interest in TT other than wanting to see it fail... It would certainly make this thread a much nicer place...

[MarkSG]

The "risk", such as it is, in buying TT:120 now is that Hornby, and the other manufacturers who are dipping their toes into it, may subsequently decide that it isn't commercially viable in the long run and stop releasing new products for it. If you're relying on RTR for a layout, then that's obviously going to leave you with little opportunity for future expansion.

 

But it is a very small risk. There's enough, now, to put together a decent "train in a landscape" roundy-roundy, even if we don't, yet, have anywhere near the number of products available in OO. It may be a bit more limited in terms of available options, but a realistic layout is already doable. There's enough currently available for a couple of passenger trains in Big Four or several BR liveries, and the class 08 plus a few wagons would make for a working, if limited, shunting plank. You'll have to scratchbuild or kitbuild some buildings, obviously, but even in OO there isn't really enough RTP to get away without that completely.

 

If I was considering a TT:120 layout (which I'm not, at the moment, as I don't really have the space right now), I'd treat it as a standalone project along the lines of my hypothetical (but much more likely to become a reality) Era 1 layout on which I can run my Hornby Rocket and (forthcoming) Tiger models. That is, essentially a working diorama rather than a fully-fledged layout, but capable of future expansion if/when the right combination of available products and circular tuits coincides. And the advantage of TT:120 is that I could do a working diorama on a 6x4 board without it looking too train setty. An oval of track, with a scenic half and a storage half, is more achievable in a limited space in TT:120 than it is in OO. 

 

So if you're into building small, self-contained layouts, there's no risk at all - there's already enough TT:120 to make that a realistic proposition. It's only a risk if you're the sort of person who likes to keep on buying, and keep on extending, over and over again, and don't want the future supply of products to dry up. Which, to be fair, a lot of us are. But just because it doesn't fit our way of doing things doesn't mean it won't work for anyone. 

[BachelorBoy]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

You are not "risking your money" any more than you do when you buy anything else online. There are provisions in place to offer protection such as the distance selling regulations and your local Trading Standards department.
If you don't want to get into TT:120, that's fine. Stick the thread on ignore and forget about it. Go and do some modelling instead.

 

I think you misunderstand.

 

To recap: Hornby is a poorly run company, and I am sceptical that the management has the skills needed to make TT120 a success.

 

China is a mess at the moment thanks to covid. That's likely to hamper Hornby's efforts to develop new products and deliver them on time.

 

Plus, there's probably a recession on the way in the UK.

 

So, the risk is that I spend money on TT120, but it fails and Hornby abandons it. That's why I want to wait and see. 

 

I'm not whingeing. I'm not hoping that TT120 will fail.

 

(In fact, as a TT3 modeller, I'd actually like to switch to ready-made stuff even if it means starting over.) 

 

I'm just being cautious. (Remember DJM?)

 

Anyway, that's my last word on the subject in this thread. 

 

BB

 

 

 

 

 

[HExpressD]

2 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

I think you misunderstand.

 

To recap: Hornby is a poorly run company, and I am sceptical that the management has the skills needed to make TT120 a success.

(...)

I'm just being cautious. (Remember DJM?)

I think this is a bit of a stretch personally

[bradfordbuffer]

2 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

I think you misunderstand.

 

To recap: Hornby is a poorly run company, and I am sceptical that the management has the skills needed to make TT120 a success.

 

China is a mess at the moment thanks to covid. That's likely to hamper Hornby's efforts to develop new products and deliver them on time.

 

Plus, there's probably a recession on the way in the UK.

 

So, the risk is that I spend money on TT120, but it fails and Hornby abandons it. That's why I want to wait and see. 

 

I'm not whingeing. I'm not hoping that TT120 will fail.

 

(In fact, as a TT3 modeller, I'd actually like to switch to ready-made stuff even if it means starting over.) 

 

I'm just being cautious. (Remember DJM?)

 

Anyway, that's my last word on the subject in this thread. 

 

BB

 

 

 

 

 

Apparently nuke fallout shelters are on offer at amazon at moment....they come with a roll of tin foil so you can make a head cone to protect you from et!

 

As a tt3 (3mm or some one will confuse with this flash in pan TT120 ☺️) you should be used to making do and adapting

 

Don't forget this dcc sound stuff won't take off and no one will make rtr 0 gauge? 

 

As poorly managed Hornby is according to yourself a lot of time and money has gone in to TT120 so can't see it been dropped like a Lima loco!

 

Could you imagine the froth if rmweb was around when triang introduced there TT?.....and they dropped the range!

 

[Hobby]

Classic case where people see things differently, but perhaps time to move one, I just hope that bachelorboy is true to his word and it is his last word on the subject...

[Ravenser]

While this is technically and officially a "Hornby thread"  it has in practice become the main thread for discussion of TT:120 on the forum.

 

We now have a situation where discussion by those positively disposed to the new scale, and open to seeing what can be done in it,  is being regularly disrupted by aggressive persistant interventions from posters who are not intersted in working in the scale and appear to be hostile to what is going on.

 

These posters seem to fall into 2 categories : Hornby-haters who see TT:120 basically as another set of sticks with which to beat Margate , and some N gauge modellers who keep jumping into TT threads to shout that that there's no justification for modelling in TT:120 and you should do it in N instead, because there is more RTR in N...

 

The key argument being deployed against the new scale is the spectre of the abandonment of Triang TT3 three generations ago. Just as Hornby dropped Zero-One and live steam after a few years. That is the line of argument BatchelorBoy is ramming down our throats with mailed fist. "Don't get into TT:120, 'cos Hornby support will be withdrawn pretty quick and then you'll be left high and dry"

 

So let's confront that argument directly, from two directions:

 

TT is a fully commercial scale on the Continent, and has been for over 30 years . There are multiple RTR manufacturers in the scale - Tillig (the biggest) Piko, Roco, Hornby-Arnold and various niche players too. 1:120 scale TT on 12mm gauge is not going away, whether Hornby are involved or not. You can buy it online , and there are British stockists like Gaugemaster and 3SMR

 

In contrast Triang were the only people making 3mm scale RTR anywhere , the only British source of 12mm mechanisms , and nearly the only source of pointwork. In 1964 there were heavy import controls, tariffs  and Exchange Control regulations severely restricted ordinary people's ability to get access to foriegn currency. Buying things yourself from the Continent was simply not possible and there wasn't much TT in the West anyway

 

So if Hornby were to walk away from British outline TT , the existing large TT eco-system on the Continent remains intact and is there to support your modelling in the scale. 12mm track is readily available from both Peco and Tillig , and will certainly remain so. Peco TT track is staying , come what may. You will certainly still be able to get 12mm gauge mechanisms

 

Furthermore Hornby are already in Continental TT with Arnold , and according to Rekoboy , well regarded. The 66 and IFA are being released by Arnold as well - there will be a good marketfor those in eastern Europe. Likewise for Hornby's track. Those items will stay in production . Nobody expects Arnold TT to vanish 

 

As for BatchelorBoy's doomsday scenario , that Hornby will go bust in short order because they are totally incapable of doing anything right, ever - the online vultures have been circling for 6-7 years with "The End is Nigh" posters and Hornby are no nearer the edge than they were then. Hornby may be making much more money from trains than their competitors and be doing better in the market in terms of  sales - it's just they have a large debt to service. The reported profits are therefore not a direct guide to whether Hornby models do better or worse than their competitors. Remember paying interest on debt is a tax -efficient way for the majority shareholder to take money out of Hornby Hobbies.  You don't get taxed on a profit, and you don't pay tax on the dividend you get as a shareholder

 

And critically - if Hornby Hobbies went under as a company  the tooling would certainly find a new owner. I can't think of a single case where the tooling wasn't sold on . Even with Rosebud Kitmaster most of the tooling survived.

 

The second angle is to point out that TT:120 is not solely dependant on Hornby. Peco do track , buldings and now announce a wagon. Lincoln Loco have already announced a 22 and released a 33 body in TT120 . Someone (LL??) has done a resin or 3D print body and bogie parts for a Cl 42 Warship : I saw a photo on my facebook feed. ALD are doing a Class 25 in TT , possibly nRTR

 

And there is a surprisingly large list of TT:120 British stuff available on Shapeways as 3D prints Shapeways British 1:120 list

 

I would love to know who was behind Gaugemaster's Expressions of Interest in a TT Class 66 . Was that Tillig seeking to stake their claim to what they may regard as "their" scale?  If there is any kind of British market for TT, then someone in the Continental TT market might dip a toe into the water

 

Remember that both OO9 and 7mm finescale were not RTR scales until very recently . Both grew and flourished to a remarkable degree based on the availability of nothing more than track and mechanisms (in the case of 7mm, they largely did without commercial readymade mechanisms)

 

And of course everything Hornby do make - will stay made .

 

There is certainly a future for TT:120 even without Hornby long-term . It looks a better brighrer future than we were sketching when Peco had just announced track and there was one loc coming from Heljan. It's still game on, even if a much more purely constructional "game on"

 

This of course is only the "reasonable worst case scenario"   ("Bring out your dead!" "Kiev will fall by the end of the week")

 

There's another world in which Bluetooth DCC and TT:120 are the best decisions Hornby have taken since moving production to China , and they push Hornby Hobbies comfortably back into the black....

 

 

 

 

[Robin Brasher]

Assuming that Hornby will survive there does not seem to be much joined up thinking on the updated new releases on the class 66 blog. 

 

The first releases will be LNER Pacific locomotives in LNER or BR cycling lion livery but there does not seem to be any suitable rolling stock for them.

 

The first items of rolling stock are:

Goods wagons

Maroon Mk1 coaches

BR LMR coaches in maroon or crimson and cream liveries.

 

It was not unknown for BR ER cycling lion Pacific locomotives to haul goods wagons, maroon Mk1 coaches or BR LMR maroon or crimson and cream coaches but crimson and cream Mk 1 coaches seem to be the obvious pairing, The Pullmans with lights would seem to be suitable for all the LNER and BR ER cycling lion Pacific locomotives. It looks like they will now be available later.

[bradfordbuffer]

If it does....as some would like to see! That's when you start your own tt120 society aka 3mm society and h0 society etc and you can direct it in the way you want! To be fair think there is justification to start now.....3mm society done a dam fine job since triang tt.

And with present on line facilities would not be expensive...and no I'm not becoming a member!

[Porfuera]

43 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

The key argument being deployed against the new scale is the spectre of the abandonment of Triang TT3 three generations ago. Just as Hornby dropped Zero-One and live steam after a few years. That is the line of argument BatchelorBoy is ramming down our throats with mailed fist. "Don't get into TT:120, 'cos Hornby support will be withdrawn pretty quick and then you'll be left high and dry"

 

[...]

 

As for BatchelorBoy's doomsday scenario , that Hornby will go bust in short order because they are totally incapable of doing anything right, ever - the online vultures have been circling for 6-7 years with "The End is Nigh" posters and Hornby are no nearer the edge than they were then.

 

Well said.

 

And I don't know whether anyone noticed but a few posts back he actually claimed to be a TT3 modeller himself. So on the one hand he is dredging up all this stilted anti-Hornby rhetoric about how TT:120 is a huge mistake, that Hornby will be doomed (with or without TT:120) and that's why we shouldn't be spending our money on it, while on the other hand he claims he models (and presumably spends money on and enjoys) a scale that Tri-Ang started up and then abandoned years ago. To me that's just plain hypocrisy.

 

In any event I really shouldn't be talking about him - he's just an attention-seeker and it seems the only way he can get it is by trying to be controversial on this thread. He's not even dependable because he said he was leaving but then later reposted. Hopefully we've seen the last of him but sadly I'm sure more of his ilk will return.

[JohnR]

3 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Assuming that Hornby will survive there does not seem to be much joined up thinking on the updated new releases on the class 66 blog. 

 

The first releases will be LNER Pacific locomotives in LNER or BR cycling lion livery but there does not seem to be any suitable rolling stock for them.

 

The first items of rolling stock are:

Goods wagons

Maroon Mk1 coaches

BR LMR coaches in maroon or crimson and cream liveries.

 

It was not unknown for BR ER cycling lion Pacific locomotives to haul goods wagons, maroon Mk1 coaches or BR LMR maroon or crimson and cream coaches but crimson and cream Mk 1 coaches seem to be the obvious pairing, The Pullmans with lights would seem to be suitable for all the LNER and BR ER cycling lion Pacific locomotives. It looks like they will now be available later.

 

Whether there is or isn't "joined up thinking", Hornby seem to have sold out, or at least sold very well the stock that they HAVE produced. 

[Porfuera]

58 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

there does not seem to be much joined up thinking on the updated new releases on the class 66 blog. 

 

And I have to admit I've said the same but they (or SK) stated that their intended market is non-modellers who may well not care (or even realise) that many of the TT:120 releases would never run together for reasons of time or location - or even country! How realistic this will turn out to be is another matter. On the other hand, it gives smaller companies plenty of opportunity to jump in and fill gaps while we wait for Hornby to roll out their releases.

 

EDIT: And just to say, I'll be running a blue Class 08 (Era 7) with some BR vent vans and a Toad E (Era 4), some TTAs (Era 7/8) and some 21T minerals (various Eras, when these are available to order) as they turn up and until something more cohesive comes along! Although I do like the sound of these Arnold sets...

Edited January 24, 2023 by Porfuera

[Ravenser]

8 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Assuming that Hornby will survive there does not seem to be much joined up thinking on the updated new releases on the class 66 blog. 

 

The first releases will be LNER Pacific locomotives in LNER or BR cycling lion livery but there does not seem to be any suitable rolling stock for them.

 

The first items of rolling stock are:

Goods wagons

Maroon Mk1 coaches

BR LMR coaches in maroon or crimson and cream liveries.

 

It was not unknown for BR ER cycling lion Pacific locomotives to haul goods wagons, maroon Mk1 coaches or BR LMR maroon or crimson and cream coaches but crimson and cream Mk 1 coaches seem to be the obvious pairing, The Pullmans with lights would seem to be suitable for all the LNER and BR ER cycling lion Pacific locomotives. It looks like they will now be available later.

 

 

I think we are over interpreting slight variances in release dates.

 

Some scholar will be able to tell us how fast Gresley Pacifics got repainted , but I wouldn't mind betting quite a few still had the early crest in say 1958-9

 

On the other hand the ER had an obvious commercial interests in putting the best and newest Mk1s onto the top ECML trains. It had always worked like that - the newest coaches out of works went into the sets for the top East Cioast expresses, and everything was cascaded down. You can bet the Talisman , the Elizabethan and so forth went maroon pretty quick

 

Individual maroon coaches are for strengthening your Easterner set . Individual Pullmans are for strengthening your Scotsman set.

 

The Stanier coaches are ready to go but the Dutchess has slipped - so Hornby have decided to go with it and release the Stanier coaches anyway. 

 

Over the next 6 months it should broadly pan out

 

(Meanwhile Bachmann are releasing a whole block of maroon Thompson coached accompanied by diesels, a WD livery 2-8-0 and narrowgauge enginers..)

 

 

[Hobby]

27 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said:

If it does....as some would like to see! That's when you start your own tt120 society aka 3mm society and h0 society etc and you can direct it in the way you want! To be fair think there is justification to start now.....

 

I think things have moved on since the formation of many of the current societies (3mm, N, 009, etc.), now we see them set up "online" instead, mainly on Facebook, and there already are a couple of TT120 ones I'm a member of as are several others from here whom I recognise. There may well be a society set up in due course, but I'm not convinced there's currently a need. 

[britishcolumbian]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Lincoln Loco have already announced a 22 and released a 33 body in TT120

To clarify: I own a class 22 body from Lincoln Loco already. They're willing to do anything in their range in 1:120, on demand. If they have something you want, ask for it.

[Phil Parker]

4 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

I think things have moved on since the formation of many of the current societies (3mm, N, 009, etc.), now we see them set up "online" instead, mainly on Facebook, and there already are a couple of TT120 ones I'm a member of as are several others from here whom I recognise. There may well be a society set up in due course, but I'm not convinced there's currently a need. 

 

Those older societies normally provide support in the form of products to help people working in the scale. The 3mm Soc has commissioned Parkside kits, wheels etc. To do that, you need a membership paying subscriptions and a formal structure. The virtual societies on Facebook are nothing more than talking shops. You wouldn't commission products relying on Facebook members alone. You might consider the societies in your list old fashioned, but they do valuable work.

[Hobby]

I'm not denying their usefulness, Phil, just questioning their need at this stage. At this point I feel the talking shop is more important than the provision of products as long as it doesn't decend into a knocking shop of the scale or manufacturer.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Hobby

[britishcolumbian]

27 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

However it's put me right off the scale full stop.  I had started buying TT:120 European stuff, and have a big Hornby pre-order in, but a new scale needs a friendly place to build a community, share information etc.

I might suggest the North American forum? It's not just NorAm outline, anything goes as long as it's 1:120 in English...

[andrewshimmin]

I'm not *exactly* the target audience for Hornby TT:120, because I'm already predisposed to like 12mm gauge TT(ish) scale as my formative layout was my Grandpa's TT and I inherited the stock...

 

But despite that pre-existing bias, I'm more like their target audience than many I think - haven't bought anything from Hornby (or any RTR at all) because haven't got space for a OO layout. A TT:120 layout on the other hand is a viable proposition - it would slide under the sofa! (In fact it's already under construction). And I have small kids and want it to be a family hobby.

 

So for what it's worth the range being introduced by Hornby is very well designed to get me to do the maximum of purchasing - which must be the aim of Hornby!

Sure, if they had introduced a coherent range of stuff for a particular region and era then the small subset of people who like that era and region might have spent big.

But by introducing a range which covers a little bit of loads of bases - and concentrating on charismatic and desirable locos and stock - they have cleverly got the maximum amount of wow factor, and got something for everyone to make them want to start buying.

And once we've started buying, we'll keep on buying!

For example, I'm fairly wide in my tastes but if I had to pick a region and era it would be post WW1 pre-grouping NW England - LNWR, LYR, maybe a bit of Midland or even GCR stuff on the Cheshire Lines.

If Hornby had brought out a coherent set of three or four LNWR 1920s locos with suitable stock, sure I'd have been drooling and wanting to buy it all! But probably I wouldn't have afforded to buy it all anyway! Maybe I'd have bought three or four locos and two or three trains of stock in the first 12 months.

But how many other people would have bought that?!?!?

Sure there are more popular eras and regions - GWR branch (boring no thanks) or BR 1960s (sludge green engines and boring diesels ugh) probably would sell better as a coherent set.

But - I bet you far more people including far more *new* customers will be attached by a beautiful apple green Gresley pacific, some classy Pullmans, a stylish garter blue A4, a sexy HST - even if it's not their preferred region and era.

So I, who'd have shrugged at a GW pannier or something, and am firmly of a Crimson Lake / Blackberry Black persuasion, was nevertheless unable to resist the A1 Scotsman set because the A1/A3 in apple green is just the most beautiful loco ever designed - and a nice *big* loco, not a little tank engine. So glamorous! I probably won't be able to resist the A4 Mallard either, or the blue HST. Obviously the Duchess is a given. Then they're promising a Black 5 - who doesn't love a Black 5? And a Class 37 is so characterful - and I don't even like diesels...

Oh look, without releasing anything at all from my chosen region and era, they've hit on a range which will make me want to buy lots of their stuff...

Sounds like a clever marketing strategy to me!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[britishcolumbian]

8 minutes ago, andrewshimmin said:

Oh look, without releasing anything at all from my chosen region and era, they've hit on a range which will make me want to buy lots of their stuff...

Indeed. I'm another example: I'm entirely new to modelling, or being overly interested in, the British scene, but of course I know the things everyone knows - Mallard, Scotsman, HST, etc, and though I've been learning about the specific locale and period I've decided to model, I'm still tempted by other things: GWR HST, since I've ridden one; Mallard self-evident... and Flying Scotsman has been to North America.

[Pacific231G]

22 hours ago, natterjack said:

Was that what you meant to type?

Well spotted.  No. It's what a producer should not do. I've edited the original post