Hornby announce TT:120

[Peter Kazmierczak]

By ye olde steam locos, I meant that when Rovex/Tri-ang  and Hornby-Dublo entered the model railway market, they produced stuff that worked on the current rail network (such as a Princess Royal in the case of Tri-ang and an A4 and Duchess by HD). They modelled contemporary stuff that could bee seen in service everyday; not historic items from a past age.

 

So is TT aimed at the older modeller (and hardly anyone under 60 will remember steam on the BR network), the grandparent trying to kindle interest in grandkids, or some other demographic? Or does steam still rule the model rails?

 

 

[Roy L S]

10 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

 

 

I agree with the Stationmaster, I don't think N is relevant to the discussion, it is a effectively a niche gauge in terms of market size and in terms of where Hornby hope/expect TT120 will end up (that should provoke a reaction 🤪). Any comparison with N is a red herring.

 

If the comment was actually made solely to provoke a reaction then as well as being incorrect it was also utterly childish.

 

At circa 20% of the overall British market and second only to OO, with excellent trade support, seeing new manufacturers like Sonic and Rapido coming on board and a Society with around 6,000 members N is very simply not a niche scale in the UK.

 

For TT120 to secure even 5% of the current overall market as it stands within the next five years would be going some. To suggest they will achieve 20% even using every commercial lever at their disposal, while primarily by trying to grow the market by targeting non-modelling newcomers, especially in the current economic situation is highly unlikely to happen. Hornby is a big player in our world, and a well recognised brand the world over, but as a a company it isn't actually that large and their marketing pockets are only so deep.

 

Roy

[Porfuera]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

The 66 is now not appearing for about a year, and the 66 pre-order pages have vanished from the website. 

 

Those Class 66 pre-order pages are on the website - I've just checked.

 

And surely the delivery date of "Expected Winter 2024-25" is an error? In the last TT Talk Q&A they said they were just starting tooling but this had been delayed due to the late receipt of some extra variant info on European variants from one of their "associates" in Spain.

 

There was a lot of banter with SK pushing Carl to get it into production and SK describing it as "key" and talking about the level of detail and about the European versions. Hornby are also pushing the 66 in the latest blog entry here:

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/hornbytt120-club/members-area/blog-and-news/class-66-development

 

Also World of Railways described a Class 66 set from Arnold which has the new Arnold container wagons (part of Hornby's 2023 continental range):

 

HN9901 Train Set Class 66 + 3 Container Wagons

 

although this isn't actually in the Arnold catalogue as far as I can see.

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Porfuera
Addition of blog link

[Hobby]

44 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

By ye olde steam locos, I meant that when Rovex/Tri-ang  and Hornby-Dublo entered the model railway market, they produced stuff that worked on the current rail network (such as a Princess Royal in the case of Tri-ang and an A4 and Duchess by HD). They modelled contemporary stuff that could bee seen in service everyday; not historic items from a past age.

 

So is TT aimed at the older modeller (and hardly anyone under 60 will remember steam on the BR network), the grandparent trying to kindle interest in grandkids, or some other demographic? Or does steam still rule the model rails?

 

As I said the choices in the early phases appeal to all ages and both old(e) and modern so I'm not sure where you are coming from. 

 

Have you looked at their catalogue? The two steam sets are just to get things moving, which is what they've done. Future stock that they've announced will appeal to a wide audience as well, and has plenty of modern image. To get a new scale up and running it would seem to have a good selection that will appeal across the board.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Hobby
Spelling

[ruggedpeak]

19 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

 

If the comment was actually made solely to provoke a reaction then as well as being incorrect it was also utterly childish.

 Perhaps it was ironic as I didn't expect anyone to react quite so..... 😎

 

Bet Simon Kohler and the Hornby Board disagree with the statement "To suggest they will achieve 20% even using every commercial lever at their disposal, while primarily by trying to grow the market by targeting non-modelling newcomers, especially in the current economic situation is highly unlikely to happen."

 

They wouldn't have invested if they thought that. As I have speculated above TT120 may well be mass market orientated with numbers to reflect that if correct. And also if correct it will grow the market whilst easily achieving the 20%+ share. We shall see in 5 years.

[ruggedpeak]

45 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

By ye olde steam locos, I meant that when Rovex/Tri-ang  and Hornby-Dublo entered the model railway market, they produced stuff that worked on the current rail network (such as a Princess Royal in the case of Tri-ang and an A4 and Duchess by HD). They modelled contemporary stuff that could bee seen in service everyday; not historic items from a past age.

 

So is TT aimed at the older modeller (and hardly anyone under 60 will remember steam on the BR network), the grandparent trying to kindle interest in grandkids, or some other demographic? Or does steam still rule the model rails?

 

 

It is aimed at eveyone who is not a railway modeller, hence Flying Scotsman, Mallard (and variations thereon) plus a big recognisable diesel freight loco (66) and a shunter as everyone needs a shunter on a train set. Few coaches and wagons, that this the archetypal trainset whether steam or diesel freight.

[Roy L S]

5 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

It is aimed at eveyone who is not a railway modeller, hence Flying Scotsman, Mallard (and variations thereon) plus a big recognisable diesel freight loco (66) and a shunter as everyone needs a shunter on a train set. Few coaches and wagons, that this the archetypal trainset whether steam or diesel freight.

While there is clearly a good degree of truth in Hornby looking at new markets simply from what Simon Kohler has said, I don't think that TT120 can be solely aimed at "everyone who is not a railway modeller" period.

 

Were that the case Hornby would not be investing in tooling items like Stanier coaches which are much more a modeller's product. To go with a Duchess in a purely "trainset" based market more Mk1s would fit the bill perfectly well

 

From the business perspective I would think that simply to manage the risk alone a more equally balanced market of new and old would be targeted at the very least. 

 

Roy

[Porfuera]

22 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

It is aimed at eveyone who is not a railway modeller, hence Flying Scotsman, Mallard (and variations thereon) plus a big recognisable diesel freight loco (66) and a shunter as everyone needs a shunter on a train set. Few coaches and wagons, that this the archetypal trainset whether steam or diesel freight.

 

I agree with this - it is mainly aimed at people who want to play trains and aren't bothered about having correct train formations rather than at railway modellers. Just look at what Hornby are releasing... there are wagons without locos to pull them and locos without wagons to pull. In one TT Talk SK spoke about people running whatever they like and even pulling wagons behind a Class 43 HST.

 

This isn't a dig at Hornby and I'm not saying that railway modellers can't get into TT:120 - there are many in this thread that are - it is just that it will probably take a while to get cohesive sets of locos and wagons together (for any era) unless other manufacturers start to fill the gaps, and that may take a while if those manufacturers (whether kit or RTR) are waiting to see how TT:120 is received.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Porfuera

[D9020 Nimbus]

19 hours ago, Roy L S said:

However, and just to look at things from another perspective, I am mindful that TT3 was launched in the late 1950s and initially growth was brisk and sales pretty decent, but as soon as N became a viable choice sales quickly slumped and by 1963 the game was pretty much up (although a few models were made until 1968).

I don't think N gauge was a viable alternative in 1963 for modelling British prototypes. What happened in 1963 was that sales of train sets slumped — all train sets. This seems to have caused a mass panic. It seems to have been attributed to slot-car systems. Peco introduced "flexible roadway" and a magazine Model Roads and Racing, renamed to Miniature Autoworld after a year (it was soon sold to MAP and incorporated into Model Cars) while Hornby added Minic Motorways to their main catalogue for a few years.
 

It's not simply a question of size as Lone Star OOO disappeared even faster than TT. Insofar as TT:120 is aimed at those with insufficient space for OO, it is a competitor for N gauge. (Moreover, for those starting out, who don't have enough space for OO, there are no Farish train sets currently in the catalogue.)

[Hobby]

I think some of you should offer your services to Hornby as its clear that you think you know more about what will sell when starting a brand new scale than they do... 😉

Edited February 13, 2023 by Hobby

[Chris116]

5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Rovex suffered two major losses during the relevant period. In 1959 the MD , John Doyle, was killed in a car crash and replaced by Richard Lines. And in 1964 the chief designer John Hefford, died prematurely (Source - Pat Hammond's book

 

Neither date quite meshes with TT-3 . By 1964 sales had collapsed to minimal levels anyway - in 1959 TT-3 had still 5 years to go.

It was the death of MD John Doyle that was the nail in the coffin of TT3. 

Tri-ang had produced locomotives as follows:-

0-6-0T Jinty in 1957

4-6-0 Castle in 1957

4-6-2 Merchant Navy in 1959

A1A-A1A Class 31 in 1959

0-6-0DS Class 08 in 1959

4-6-2 Britannia in 1960

2-6-2 Prairie in 1961

4-6-2 Est 231D in 1962

DMU Class 104 in 1963

0-6-0T Continental in 1963

EMU Continental advertised 1963 but not made

 

The locomotives introduced in 1957 and 1959 were led by Doyle. It is probably also true that work on the 1960 and 1961 items had already started and the new MD did not stop them as things were going reasonably well. The DMU and EMU probably shared motor bogies while the continental steam locomotives and EMU  were part of the move to access the French market which was never a success while by 1963 the model railway market was suffering from the slot car craze and with no-one in management really keen on the TT3 range since the death of Doyle and the failure of the French adventure it was very easy to stop making TT3 and let the range die once what was in stock had been sold.

A sad story and one which I was affected by as I had a large layout which after 1969 was expanded by buying second hand stock from Platform Two where I worked on a Saturday for a number of years with my pay mostly being taken in models!

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Chris116
Spelling

[andrewshimmin]

It would be interesting to know how many of those who think Hornby should adopt an alternative strategy:

a) have already bought something TT120?

b) have any intention of ever buying anything in TT120?

c) would buy something in TT120 if only it was X or Y which isn't on Hornby's announced Phase 1 - 4 list or the other things they've admitted on TT Talk they are working on?

 

I'd love it if Hornby would announce a range of 1920s LNWR and L&Y stuff plus an expansive range of Highland and GSWR locos, but I somehow doubt it would have quite the commercial advantages of A4s, A1/3s, 66s and HSTs.

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

I think some of you should offer your services to Hornby as its clear that you think you know more about what will sell when starting a brand new scale than they do... 😉

 

Haha

To be honest, I do think Simon should take a little advice and act on it. The TT:120 move was to invest a not inconsiderable sum of money in the project, in order to grow the business. At the moment there are probably some folk who have / had disposable cash to invest in a new trainset but.  Everything I see announced in TT:120 is also available in OO, so what can it be that draws people to the new scale ?  In my view Simon should have done a flip and researched about half a dozen new products which would initially be exclusive to the new scale.  Probably current items like class 68 and 70 and maybe class 88 along with an Electrostar and  a 185.  I think modellers would flock to the new scale if those were offered, but there is not telling that Hornby could use their R&D to scale the products up to OO at a later date

 

I just feel TT:120 is mired in Simon's obsession with Hornby Dublo - pacifics and pullmans.  There is more to life !!!  

[Porfuera]

2 minutes ago, Covkid said:

I think modellers would flock to the new scale if those were offered, but there is not telling that Hornby could use their R&D to scale the products up to OO at a later date

 

I just feel TT:120 is mired in Simon's obsession with Hornby Dublo - pacifics and pullmans.  There is more to life !!!  

 

But they have said that their aim is not to attract modellers - their aim is to attract new people to the hobby. And presumably they know what sells best and they will also have done research with focus groups and so on which will have confirmed that, otherwise they would be offering something else.

 

The current strategy offers a little bit of something for people across a wide timespan with a bit more here and there as the range expands. Just offering the latest modern image stuff will won't attract the average person on the Clapham omnibus, in my opinion.

 

[Mike Harvey]

7 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

How you sell a 66 for £125 here and then release it in the Arnold range without totally destroying your pricing structure in the Continental TT market is an interesting question. Some nimble footwork will be required .  I suspect a 66 in a specifically Continental scheme , with one or two extra details at around £175 : even that is half the price of big Continental steam in TT

 

As a pointer - when the 66 appeared on the website at range launch, it was shown as priced at £104.95 (from memory) - well out of line with all the other diesels. That attracted comment. But a look at the going rate for Dapol 66s suggests where that price came from. 

 

The 66 is now not appearing for about a year, and the 66 pre-order pages have vanished from the website. The 08 is priced at £119 pre-order ...

 

 

 

They could always tool the very similar but noticeably different Class 77 for Arnold initially. Harmonising the UK and continental prices later on would be easier once away from the “lead- in” pricing period.

[Hobby]

52 minutes ago, Covkid said:

I just feel TT:120 is mired in Simon's obsession with Hornby Dublo - pacifics and pullmans.  There is more to life !!!  

 

There is, and he knows that, look at the catalogue at the next two phases, lots of modern stuff!! 🤣 

[Hobby]

If anyone is interested the Arnold site currently has a Kof at £87.19.

[Porfuera]

46 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

 

They could always tool the very similar but noticeably different Class 77 for Arnold initially. Harmonising the UK and continental prices later on would be easier once away from the “lead- in” pricing period.

 

I think the point is that tooling a single loco is cheaper and quicker than tooling two and therefore quicker to get to market. And tooling two quite similar locos seems a bit of a waste when there are many locos yet to be produced.

 

Presumably the pricing will be similar for both the Hornby and the Arnold products to attract European modellers (and avoid any potential bad feeling) unless Arnold feel that they can charge a premium or the production runs are smaller for the various European variants/liveries.

[JohnR]

I see the "Hornby TT track doesn't make a circle" conspiracy is doing the rounds with a vengeance. 

 

It's almost as if people are determined to forcibly create problems where none exist.

[gwrrob]

6 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I see the "Hornby TT track doesn't make a circle" conspiracy is doing the rounds with a vengeance. 

 

It's almost as if people are determined to forcibly create problems where none exist.

 

Yes that Charlie Bishop video was very interesting and informative from a respected modeller.

[britishcolumbian]

2 hours ago, Covkid said:

Everything I see announced in TT:120 is also available in OO, so what can it be that draws people to the new scale ?

If in 25 years of being in the hobby I haven't gone for OO despite wanting to model something British, why would I do so now?

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Mike Harvey said:

 

They could always tool the very similar but noticeably different Class 77 for Arnold initially. Harmonising the UK and continental prices later on would be easier once away from the “lead- in” pricing period.

 

Given the comment from Hornby somewhere that the 66 had been slightly delayed going out for tooling  because they needed the tooling to cover a lot of things , including European varients, that could well be the route they are taking. 

 

The Arnold model appears to be being released as a set  along with the container flats , so that gives them more scope to cover their tracks in terms of pricing

 

[Porfuera]

15 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

 

Yes that Charlie Bishop video was very interesting and informative from a respected modeller.

 

I tried it with a circle of R3 track and I couldn't get it to happen. When I overlapped the ends it was no longer a circle, it became an oval. I suppose it depend on what you want to find.

[JohnR]

1 minute ago, Porfuera said:

 

I tried it with a circle of R3 track and I couldn't get it to happen. When I overlapped the ends it was no longer a circle, it became an oval. I suppose it depend on what you want to find.

Exactly. If you don't join the track pieces together properly, then they won't make a circle.

 

Since that video, a lot of people have been posting photos of the same thing all over Facebook, acting as if they are the first person to have discovered it.

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, Covkid said:

Everything I see announced in TT:120 is also available in OO, so what can it be that draws people to the new scale ?  In my view Simon should have done a flip and researched about half a dozen new products which would initially be exclusive to the new scale.  Probably current items like class 68 and 70 and maybe class 88 along with an Electrostar and  a 185. 

 

Since pretty well everything commercial has been done in OO , it is inevitable that whatever Hornby do in TT:120 will already be available as a OO model. Bachmann have done the Class 70 in OO, Dapol have done the Class 68. 

 

More to the point - Hornby won't have the necessary licences. Bachmann and Dapol have the rights. Likewise - no Mk5s in TT:120 as AS hold the rights

 

Doing things where you already hold the necessary licences for design and livery keeps costs down. Why does the Scotsman set feature Blink Bonny not 4472 ? Because they would have to pay the NRM to do 4472, and it might put £15 to £20 on the price of the set

 

Multiple units are an interesting one. They sell least well of all subjects - and one reason will be price . A 3 or 4 car multiple unit is going to have the highest unit price of any  RTR model . Price resistance is becoming a real issue now , and the highest priced items will face the strongest resistance

 

Hornby's  OO "offer" in Modernisation Plan DMUs is Class 101 (ex Lima) , Class 110 (vintage Hornby) , Class 121 (ex Lima) . All from vintage tools , upgraded with a decent drive, 8 wheel pickup and DCC sockets 20 years ago, fully paid off now. These they sell as "affordable" models priced at under £150 for a 2 car unit

 

In Second Generation units they have the ex Lima 156, with mechanical upgrade, and their own modern tooling 153. Both priced at an "affordable" price point

 

And they've now planted a flag in 21st century units with the Greater Anglia Flirt, still to reach market

 

Currently no DMU has been announced in TT:120 (unless you count the HST and Azuma)

 

The Gloucester Class 100 is the last major long service Modernisation Plan DMU not done in OO. Do Hornby tool up a Class 100 in OO and TT:120 , to replace the 101 or 110 as tooling becomes life expired?

 

Do Hornby do a TT:120 version of the 153? TT:120 is launched as an affordable scale , for those not willing to pay £330 for a 2 car DMU (see HJ. 158s are out at £290) - a single car DMU can retail at a similar price to a diesel loco, and is therefore more affordable

 

Or are Hornby developing a TT Flirt in parallel with the OO model? Kick the ball right up field . But you might want to see how the OO model sells before committing to that...

 

We are only 10 weeks into this scale. Give them a little time.....