Hornby announce TT:120

[Guest]

1 hour ago, frobisher said:

 

The set numbers persisted well into 80's. But a quick trawl around seems to indicate that first ones didn't have them in 1977 but the stripe is present in PCs in 1979 so there is definitely crossover.

Maybe the stripe arrived with the Hitchin electrification out of Kings Cross? 

[HSB]

I noticed on the Gaugemaster site that the Hornby Mk1 brakes are described as Brake Seconds rather than Brake Composites and on checking the photo I see that they are indeed BSKs although they are still described as BCKs on the Hornby site! This means you can actually make up a believable three coach train of Mk1s after all.

[Ravenser]

5 hours ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

Maybe the stripe arrived with the Hitchin electrification out of Kings Cross? 

 

That was 1975-6 from memory. So before the HSTs appeared on the ECML.

 

The WR sets were not going to encounter OHLE anywhere. It may be that the ECML sets were introduced without the stripe, but someone rapidly asked "er what about south of Hitchin with the wires?" and the stripe was rapidly adopted in response.

 

It would have been an obvious issue on the Midland as the Bedford St Pancras electrification was live around the time HSTs were introduced to the route.

 

Once you have decided that HSTs will be introduced on the MML, and you are electrifying out to Bedford, and there are wires south of Hitchin , and you are going to have a pool of HSTs at NL working both routes - the need for the cantrail stipe becomes pretty obvious and no doubt it was then applied on new builds

[Guest]

Wikipedia says 76-78 but it’s not infallible! Not sure when the wires went live, but I guess it means the ER sets probably had the cantrail strip from soon after they were introduced. 

[D9020 Nimbus]

According to David Percival in King's Cross Lineside 1954-84, November 1976 for the suburban service, 1977 for trains to Moorgate. Testing would take place before then thought; the programme of installing the infrastructure, masts etc began in 1973. He was a regular commuter on the line so I'd tend to regard him as a reliable source.

[Covkid]

On 24/06/2023 at 18:07, HSB said:

I noticed on the Gaugemaster site that the Hornby Mk1 brakes are described as Brake Seconds rather than Brake Composites and on checking the photo I see that they are indeed BSKs although they are still described as BCKs on the Hornby site! This means you can actually make up a believable three coach train of Mk1s after all.

 

I think that depends how your believability is. The Mk1 coach formed many many different roles in makeup of rakes of coaches. Many many "summer holiday" trains to seaside towns in the 1980s which I witnessed were formed of 10 or 11 vehicles - generally SKs with a CK in the middle and a BSK towards each end. North Wales coast, Blackpool, Scarborough, Skeggy, Yarmouth and the South West tended to be formed of rakes like this.  The 4 comparment BSK was a very common creature with at least one in nearly every rake.  The BCK was a much rarer beast with more specialist roles, often overnight mail; or parcels trains or secondary operation in Scotland.  The 1978 RCTS coaching stock book lists 443 BSKs as against 91 BCKs. Also only 15 of those BCKs were allocated to the LMR.

 

IMHO the fact that a BCK can perform every role is often an attraction to ther modeller - first class 2nd class and van / luggage.  In reality though, again my own view, some BCKs languished in sidings as emergency spares - 21269 I recall being the Carstairs emergency van for when portions split at Carstairs, but were not "double braked" 

 

By far the most common Mk1 coach was the SK or the TSO which shared the same bodyshell. In the same RCTS "ref" there were 1027 Corridor 2nds (SKs)  and 867 Open 2nds (SO and TSO).  By comparison the book lists 399 Corridor Composites (CKs) - simply because the majority of MK1 trains had comparatively little first class to thew ration of standard class accommodation. 

 

One favourite little formation of mine was the Kyle of Lochalsh route where at least one of the formations was a pair of Mk1 TSOs sandwiching a Mk1 BG - a real utilitarian formation !!!

Edited June 25, 2023 by Covkid

[HSB]

What we really need from Hornby for longer formations is an SK or TSO which, as Covkid said, shared the same bodyshell so models would just need different interiors and roof details.

The mislabelling of the BSKs as BCKs had put me off buying any Mk1s up until now as I didn't want to have to replace the sides with brass overlays in this small scale.

[Michanglais]

Hmmmm, what could be going on?

 

I've just had an email from Hornby telling me they've cancelled my pre-order for the IC Exec HST sound-equipped pack but informing me the non-sound version pack was still available (and offering me a 10% discount for a future Hornby purchase to compensate my disappointment). 

 

So, I figure, I'll surely be able to sound-equip a 'silent' set sooner or later and I pre-order the non-sound set. However, is it my imagination, or has there been a distinct jump in price? I may be mis-remembering but the silent pack seemed to be more of a bargain previously. Could be just me...

 

Then, out of curiosity, I check to see that the sound-equipped BR Blue is still on its way. Well. It is if you order in £, there are four pages of locos to choose from, when switching to €, the number of pages drops to three and the sound-equipped BR Blue set has disappeared. I'm wondering whether it's another website glitch or whether the sound-equipped BR blue will disappear, too? 

 

Part of me is wondering whether I should just pre-order absolutely everything era 7 and era 8 - it's a bit of a gamble. Shipping to Europe is expensive so if items are drip-fed, that could mean a lot of additional costs. I was sort of hoping to wait until, say, all BR B/G Mk3s were available and order the entire rake in one go. 

 

Despite the somewhat extreme prices, I'm kind of glad I stumbled on HOm to have new 'toys' to play with on my TT:120 track. I really, REALLY want Hornby UK TT:120 to work, I can only hope that whoever steps into SK's shoes is as enthusiastic about the project and keeps it moving forwards (however long that takes/what appears/disappears).

 

 

[montyburns56]

21 hours ago, HSB said:

What we really need from Hornby for longer formations is an SK or TSO which, as Covkid said, shared the same bodyshell so models would just need different interiors and roof details.

The mislabelling of the BSKs as BCKs had put me off buying any Mk1s up until now as I didn't want to have to replace the sides with brass overlays in this small scale.

 

I'm amazed that they didn't produce one straight away as we've left the days when manufacturers could get away with producing just a brake coach and a composite. It's weird that they can tool up three versions of the Stanier stock, but only two types of MK1, even though the latter would be much more useful for the average modeller

[frobisher]

18 hours ago, montyburns56 said:

It's weird that they can tool up three versions of the Stanier stock, but only two types of MK1, even though the latter would be much more useful for the average modeller

 

Yet doubled down on the MK2e/f... when one or the other would have been more than sufficient at this stage of the game.  More MK1s will always make sense.

[Steamport Southport]

Maybe so they can get the basics out there and then release more varieties later?

 

If they concentrate on just BR Mark 1s and "Modern Image" then all those Big Four era people are going to walk away.

 

 

 

Jason

[frobisher]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Maybe so they can get the basics out there and then release more varieties later?

 

But as I said, what's with the MK2 e AND f..? That's a couple of production slots that could have been used for other coaches, say a pair of Gresley gangwayed stock, or Blue Grey MK1s which are conspicuously absent at present. 

[montyburns56]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Maybe so they can get the basics out there and then release more varieties later?

 

If they concentrate on just BR Mark 1s and "Modern Image" then all those Big Four era people are going to walk away.

 

 

 

Jason

 

But what portion of modellers model that period anyway? I bet that 50s-80s modellers outnumber them by a large margin.

[Adam1701D]

On 23/06/2023 at 00:17, luke_stevens said:

 

Just to check, the Blue Grey HST (ER) has the correct introductory 254 number but seems to have the electrification orange strip on the cab-end. I don't think that's correct for 1977.

 

Can anyone confirm when the HST's started to get the orange stripes?

 

Luke

The orange stripes started to appear in the early 1980s - well within the blue/grey era.

[Jeff Smith]

2 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

But as I said, what's with the MK2 e AND f..? That's a couple of production slots that could have been used for other coaches, say a pair of Gresley gangwayed stock, or Blue Grey MK1s which are conspicuously absent at present. 

Oh, I'm sure if you worked for Hornby they would have listened to you regardless of the other logistics involved in introducing a brand new range and streamlining what is practical and achievable as soon as possible.  Being the Monday morning quarterback is not very constructive.

[D9020 Nimbus]

According to the catalogue a mark 1 "second" is planned for phase 3 / 4 — it doesn’t say whether it is an SK or TSO.

[Ravenser]

5 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

But as I said, what's with the MK2 e AND f..? That's a couple of production slots that could have been used for other coaches, say a pair of Gresley gangwayed stock, or Blue Grey MK1s which are conspicuously absent at present. 

 

The Class 50 and the Mk2 aircons are the one element of hase 2 we haven't really heard much about. \they seem to be the bit that might be slip-sliding backward....

 

[Ravenser]

8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Maybe so they can get the basics out there and then release more varieties later?

 

If they concentrate on just BR Mark 1s and "Modern Image" then all those Big Four era people are going to walk away.

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

Where do they actually pitch their periods??

 

- Postwar BR steam?

- Prenationalisation?

- Post Privatisation - over a quarter of a century now?

- Classic BR Blue modern image??

 

"Modern image" now amounts to at least 55 years. Longer than Grouping and preGrouping periods put together. (There is a de facto backward cut off of 1900 with most pre-Grouping modelling) 

 

It is arguable that 21st century/post-privatisation may be a better bet than classic BR Blue modern image. Nearly all freight stock is now bogie vehicles. The defining loco , Class 66, is 12" long . Space was always an issue with modern image , but to model contemporary freight operations at home in 4mm  with even vague credibility has become well-nigh impossible . A 66 + 3 wagons looks  silly.

 

Go to TT:120 and you can do something half way credible in a scenic length of 8' to 10'...

 

Once the 66 is released (Q1 2024??) a perfectly credible "package" of 2 x 66 + 1 x 08 becomes available in TT:120 to model smaller contemporary freight operations

 

It is notorious that the railway of 1950 and even 1957 looked remarkably similar to the railway of 1910 

 

Should Hornby be targetting 1935-1965 and 1995-2025 as the periods to cover? Could the 50 and Mk2 aircons look something like orphans??

[luke_stevens]

3 hours ago, Adam1701D said:

The orange stripes started to appear in the early 1980s - well within the blue/grey era.

 

The earliest I can find of a definite orange line on an Eastern Region HST is '82, but it no longer had to 254 unit number.

 

L

[Guest]

On 28/06/2023 at 21:12, Ravenser said:

 

 

Where do they actually pitch their periods??

 

- Postwar BR steam?

- Prenationalisation?

- Post Privatisation - over a quarter of a century now?

- Classic BR Blue modern image??

 

"Modern image" now amounts to at least 55 years. Longer than Grouping and preGrouping periods put together. (There is a de facto backward cut off of 1900 with most pre-Grouping modelling) 

 

It is arguable that 21st century/post-privatisation may be a better bet than classic BR Blue modern image. Nearly all freight stock is now bogie vehicles. The defining loco , Class 66, is 12" long . Space was always an issue with modern image , but to model contemporary freight operations at home in 4mm  with even vague credibility has become well-nigh impossible . A 66 + 3 wagons looks  silly.

 

Go to TT:120 and you can do something half way credible in a scenic length of 8' to 10'...

 

Once the 66 is released (Q1 2024??) a perfectly credible "package" of 2 x 66 + 1 x 08 becomes available in TT:120 to model smaller contemporary freight operations

 

It is notorious that the railway of 1950 and even 1957 looked remarkably similar to the railway of 1910 

 

Should Hornby be targeting 1935-1965 and 1995-2025 as the periods to cover? Could the 50 and Mk2 aircons look something like orphans??

Well I'm going to model the BR sectorisation period so Class 50s and Mark 2s would almost certainly have a home on my layout! Ideally speaking, there should be something for everyone, maybe as the range gradually expands. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Guest

[Steamport Southport]

18 hours ago, montyburns56 said:

 

But what portion of modellers model that period anyway? I bet that 50s-80s modellers outnumber them by a large margin.

 

But surely the priority would be to release coaches to go with the models they already make and have sold?

 

There are LNER A1/A3s and A4s with no coaches to pull. Surely they should have made LNER Gresleys before anything else?

 

These aren't in preserved condition. 

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lner-class-a4-4-6-2-4468-mallard-era-3-tt3007m

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lner-class-a1-4-6-2-4472-flying-scotsman-era-3-tt3004m

 

 

Also add in Blink Bonny with unprototypical Pullmans. Very rare for a Pacific to pull Pullmans in that era, it was usually a C1 4-4-2.

 

 

Likewise LMS era Duchesses are imminent. They need the LMS coaches or it's pointless making them.

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

15 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

Where do they actually pitch their periods??

 

- Postwar BR steam?

- Prenationalisation?

- Post Privatisation - over a quarter of a century now?

- Classic BR Blue modern image??

 

"Modern image" now amounts to at least 55 years. Longer than Grouping and preGrouping periods put together. (There is a de facto backward cut off of 1900 with most pre-Grouping modelling) 

 

It is arguable that 21st century/post-privatisation may be a better bet than classic BR Blue modern image. Nearly all freight stock is now bogie vehicles. The defining loco , Class 66, is 12" long . Space was always an issue with modern image , but to model contemporary freight operations at home in 4mm  with even vague credibility has become well-nigh impossible . A 66 + 3 wagons looks  silly.

 

Go to TT:120 and you can do something half way credible in a scenic length of 8' to 10'...

 

Once the 66 is released (Q1 2024??) a perfectly credible "package" of 2 x 66 + 1 x 08 becomes available in TT:120 to model smaller contemporary freight operations

 

It is notorious that the railway of 1950 and even 1957 looked remarkably similar to the railway of 1910 

 

Should Hornby be targetting 1935-1965 and 1995-2025 as the periods to cover? Could the 50 and Mk2 aircons look something like orphans??

 

They use the Era system. I would hope they stick to that rather than making up another one. It already has a few overlaps.

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/catalogue/era

 

 

Jason

[frobisher]

17 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Oh, I'm sure if you worked for Hornby they would have listened to you regardless of the other logistics involved in introducing a brand new range and streamlining what is practical and achievable as soon as possible.  Being the Monday morning quarterback is not very constructive.

 

The decision to produce the 2e and the 2f simultaneously was a "because they could" rather than "because they should" decision.  One or other should have been left as a tooling option that could go to production later, because at a casual glance 90% of modellers wouldn't see the difference between them, we effectively end up with a double size production batch of a coach type that has no appropriate locomotives to be pulled by available at the same time.  If rather than double down on the MK2 they'd scheduled more livery choices for the MK1 instead we'd have curiously missing blue grey and chocolate and cream versions we need to cover the locos that are planned.

 

As it is, we'll never be short of MK2 aircons (no bad thing in and of itself).

 

 

 

[5Dublo2]

On 24/06/2023 at 18:07, HSB said:

I noticed on the Gaugemaster site that the Hornby Mk1 brakes are described as Brake Seconds rather than Brake Composites and on checking the photo I see that they are indeed BSKs although they are still described as BCKs on the Hornby site! This means you can actually make up a believable three coach train of Mk1s after all.

I finally got around to checking the Maroon Mk1 I had received (TT4002) - it is a Brake Second and says so on the packaging 

 

[montyburns56]

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

But surely the priority would be to release coaches to go with the models they already make and have sold?

 

There are LNER A1/A3s and A4s with no coaches to pull. Surely they should have made LNER Gresleys before anything else?

 

Jason

 

Well I feel that in the short term they should have restricted them to the BR liveries so that people could at least stick MK1s behind them and then tool up Big Four coaches at a later stage. It's not that they shouldn't make them it's just that at the early stages of Hornby's TT development they should be thinking about what models can serve the most number of modellers.