Hornby announce TT:120

[MyRule1]

20 hours ago, Ravenser said:

What is more of a surprise is to see some smaller shops like Bure Valley listed.

Bure Valley seems to have a special relationship with Hornby. In the days of dumping  discounting of stock by the Hornby Group they were always a good place to go to for cheap Hornby or Airifx. Their stock holding of Hornby items is well in excess of most LMS's I visit and I guess they have a number of customers who but from them as a way of supporting the BVR.

 

It certainty did not come as a surprise to me. They are only just off my regular route to North Norfolk so hopefully when I call in over the next week or so they will have some in stock as I am yet to see TT:120 in the flesh.

[ruggedpeak]

For Euro dwellers there is a good range in stock at Modellbahnunion, dedicated section for GB TT:120

 

https://www.modellbahnunion.com/TT-gauge/Models-from-Great-Britain-TT.htm?shop=modellbahn-union-en&a=catalog&p=1051

 

 

 

 

[MyRule1]

17 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

For Euro dwellers there is a good range in stock at Modellbahnunion, dedicated section for GB TT:120

 

https://www.modellbahnunion.com/TT-gauge/Models-from-Great-Britain-TT.htm?shop=modellbahn-union-en&a=catalog&p=1051

 

 

 

 

At the current exchange rate these undercut the prices (in GBP) on the Hornby web site. For example Mallard at 165.56 Euros is £142 whereas ordering from Hornby (excluding points / club discount) is £163.99,

[leonk]

On 07/08/2023 at 00:21, teletougos said:

Fair. It was just an SMS joke. 

 

You don't need to make SMS jokes, they do a good enough job of that themselves :-P

 

(and dare I even mention the Bluetooth DCC decoders, i wonder if we'll ever see those)

Edited August 9, 2023 by leonk

[teletougos]

Add John Dutfield Model Railways in Chelmsford, to stockists of Hornby TT-120.

 

Seeing the 08, steam and coaches in the flesh shows clearly that they are very unlikely to be confused with N scale, as some have speculated.

 

Size differential is substantial. The 'heft' is there. Probably if you went any smaller than 1:120 it wouldn't be, but but just enough is enough. 

 

The coaches look very well finished. Quite classy.

 

All up, good looking models, great size, hence a definite appeal.

 

Which longtime TTers have always known. So well done Hornby.

Edited August 9, 2023 by teletougos

[Porfuera]

16 hours ago, MyRule1 said:

At the current exchange rate these undercut the prices (in GBP) on the Hornby web site. For example Mallard at 165.56 Euros is £142 whereas ordering from Hornby (excluding points / club discount) is £163.99,

 

However if you can't collect from the shop then you need to add in the €12.99 p&p - Hornby don't charge p&p over £50.

 

But even better (possibly), if Modellbahnunion removes the 19% (?) German VAT from their price you would get an ex-VAT price of around £125, which is below the current £135 cutoff for VAT on imports to the UK and therefore (in theory) you won't be charged UK VAT when the parcel arrives. So even with the additional €12.99 p&p it looks like you could get a loco for around £135-£140, which is approximately equivalent to the current 15% discount so maybe something to bear in mind when the current Club membership expires. You might also need to factor in any currency conversion charges from your bank or credit card provider.

 

Buying from Germany worked for me at the beginning of this year when I ordered some TT:120 track from Modellbahnshop-Lippe - they deducted the German VAT and the ex-VAT price was less than £135 and I wasn't charged UK VAT or handling or anything extra (although I was charged £3.48 by my credit card provider).

 

The £135 cutoff seems to be to do with where the VAT is charged - if the ex-VAT price is below £135 then it it supposed to be charged by the seller and paid to HMRC but a lot of foreign shops understandably haven't registered with HMRC and so don't bother and leave it to HMRC to collect the VAT, which they currently aren't doing. Over £135 I think it the UK VAT is charged by the courier company when the parcel arrives and so they may add a handling charge on top of the VAT.

 

I haven't bought from Modellbahnunion so I don't know for sure whether they deduct the German VAT - apparently not all shops do this. And in theory you are supposed to pay VAT on all imports to the UK so I guess there is a chance that even if you pay less than £135 then you might be unlucky and get charged UK VAT (and possibly the handling charge on top) when it arrives - this might depend on the courier. And sometime people get charged VAT at both ends so they end up paying VAT twice, but these seem to be mostly people outside the UK who are importing into other countries.

 

In case my info is not up-to-date then there are a number of threads for imports to the UK - here is one below. Spoiler alert - the discussions can get quite heated!

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Porfuera

[MyRule1]

20 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

However if you can't collect from the shop then you need to add in the €12.99 p&p - Hornby don't charge p&p over £50.

 I wasn't suggesting importing but rather just commenting of the price differential.

[Porfuera]

12 minutes ago, MyRule1 said:

 I wasn't suggesting importing but rather just commenting of the price differential.

 

That's probably just down to the level of dealer discounting - some UK dealers are advertising Mallard for £147.60 as opposed to Hornby's £163.99, which I've just realised means that the advantage of importing is only about £5-£10 and probably not worth the risk!

Edited August 9, 2023 by Porfuera

[Hroth]

Bure Vally Models have, for example, the BR blue 08 for £123.29 which is approx 10% off the Hornby price.

 

Admittedly you don't get the collectors club discount, free postage and Hobby points, which probably drop the Hornby price to the same level, but if you're not a collectors club/Hobby points member, then the BVM price has the edge.

 

[Porfuera]

For anyone that hasn't seen it yet (like me!) I've just noticed this on Facebook - the latest Train Terminal on the Class 50, Mk2F and Mk3 carriages.

 

Interesting that the Mk2s will come with an additional set of two buckeye-styled magnetic couplings for closer coupling. I can't see the same mentioned for the Mk3s but it says they will be available to buy separately to retro-fit.

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/hornbytt120-club/members-area/blog-and-news/br-fleet

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Porfuera

[andrewshimmin]

On 08/08/2023 at 08:43, Hroth said:

 

CMC was one of Hornbys "special" retailers years ago and tended to have more stuff than other model shops, so it might be that that sort of relationship is being revitalised.

 

CMC were at Pete Watermans giant OO layouts at Chester Cathedral in both '21 and '22 and I wouldn't be surprised if they were there this year.  If Hornby are keen on pushing TT:120 to the public, I would imagine that there will be stock on display, plus the catalogue.  I'm going to visit Chester on Monday, so I'll keep an eye open!

 

 

 

 

I can confirm Chester Model Centre are at the Cathedral for the Making Tracks 3 layout - my kids all enjoyed operating an Avanti Class 80x thingy, although my youngest daughter did say afterwards "our train at home is more fun, Daddy" 😉.

 

CMC have TT-120 for sale at the Cathedral and at their shop - photo evidence below! They also had lots of track. But I didn't see any train sets - maybe sold out?

The chappie in the shop said it seems to be attracting interest as it's a nice little range and there's the space advantage for new starters.

 

I'm glad I went into the shop, because with the apparently very long wait for a small tank engine, I was starting to wonder about an 08. This despite my previously stated policy of not getting one because I have some Triang TT3 ones...

It was good to see one "in the flesh" and confirm that they are very nice. Although I still think I'll try to wait instead.

It also confirmed that I'm glad I bought a Mallard not a Falcon A4. Both are wonderful, but the garter blue version just edges it for me. Easier to choose seeing the actual models.

[Hroth]

Nice to see the hardware on display in a real shop!

 

I might just get a blue 08, though I really want a green one.  Somewhere back up this thread thhere's some photos I took of my TT3 08 and 31 compared with the Easterner A4.

 

TT3 is HUGE in comparison!

 

[Porfuera]

51 minutes ago, andrewshimmin said:

I didn't see any train sets - maybe sold out?

 

They appear to be sold out in the online shop and there are people on Facebook complaining that they didn't get their pre-orders - someone said they'd placed their pre-order as early as May - so presumably there aren't any available for dealers.

 

People seem to be being told that the next shipment will be in a month but one person posted a screen grab that said it will be at the beginning of October for the analogue sets - but then both statements could be true in that it ships in a month and arrives here in October...

 

Given that Hornby must know how many pre-orders they have this could be due to lack of production capacity at the factory. But then again production runs are probably booked many month in advance and maybe Hornby didn't predict the demand very well. And if they were to extend the production run of the sets to produce enough sets to fulfil the pre-orders then they could possibly cause a delay to whatever was going to be produced after the sets and have a subsequent knock-on effect down the schedule. But I guess we'll never know.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Porfuera

[Jeff Smith]

I would expect sales to pick up with impulse buys when on display in shops and exhibitions.

[Guest]

The sets currently being received by customers indicate batches of 440 each. These appear to have been used up fulfilling pre-orders, although retailers such as Frizinghall had some left yesterday. More sets are apparently due next month as has been stated above. The annual report suggests more shipments are due before January. 

Assuming all 4 batches of 440 sets are fully allocated given that all are still marked as per-order only, then Hornby has just received a revenue of at least £350,000 in the last week alone (at an average of £200, conservatively based on the old selling price as most pre-orders fulfilled this week seem to be a few months old).

 

Not bad going. With another batch of sets due next month, potentially at a higher average selling price due to the price rise being reflected in later orders, Q3 revenue from train sets alone could easily be £750,000. With HM7000 fitted locomotives also arriving in Q3 and bundles selling out, it will have been a good quarter for them. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Guest
Spelling

[Michanglais]

16 hours ago, Porfuera said:

For anyone that hasn't seen it yet (like me!) I've just noticed this on Facebook - the latest Train Terminal on the Class 50, Mk2F and Mk3 carriages.

 

Interesting that the Mk2s will come with an additional set of two buckeye-styled magnetic couplings for closer coupling. I can't see the same mentioned for the Mk3s but it says they will be available to buy separately to retro-fit.

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/hornbytt120-club/members-area/blog-and-news/br-fleet

 

 

One thing I'm a bit unhappy about is that on these coach samples, the glazing appears to be totally transparent. I'm hoping this will be corrected on the production runs. 

 

Purely personal preference but I'd rather have smoked glazing than highly detailed interiors. 

 

That being said, I don't know for sure whether these Mk2s had smoked glazing, but I'm pretty sure the Mk3s did. 

 

Maybe someone knows better than me?

 

That being said, the inclusion of magnetic close couplers is to be commended. Personally, I use my French supplier, TJ Modèles, for magnetic couplers (no affiliation), which are extremely discreet and are available in quarter mm increments from 4mm to 7.5mm so you can always be sure of full, corridor-to-corridor connections (it's amazing how different manufacturers apply NEM standards...). 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Michanglais

[Hobby]

5 hours ago, Michanglais said:

Purely personal preference but I'd rather have smoked glazing than highly detailed interiors. 

 

That being said, I don't know for sure whether these Mk2s had smoked glazing,

 

Looking at photos online it seemed to vary, they were definitely tinted but not as heavily as I seem to remember Airfix(?) doing theirs which looked brown rather than a tint! Again from the photos the interiors are all perfectly visible so perhaps a "hint of a tint" would be appropriate! They also seem to vary depending on the lighting conditions, as always!

Edited August 10, 2023 by Hobby

[J-Lewis]

18 hours ago, Michanglais said:

 

One thing I'm a bit unhappy about is that on these coach samples, the glazing appears to be totally transparent. I'm hoping this will be corrected on the production runs. 

 

 

It’s hard to tell from the photos, it might just be the light box they are using as a background causing the windows to look clear, or possibly these are still prototype/test shots moulded in a test material.  The Hornby OO versions have smoked glass so it would be reasonable to expect the final production TT versions will have it too.  
 

I suspect this is another ‘Class 08’ ladders issue which was nothing more than a test model.  There are still posters here wrongly claiming the 08 has ladders and ‘20+ inaccuracies’ so I assume there will be posters six months from now complaining about clear windows on the Mk2s even though they will undoubtedly be smoked glass.  :)

[Pacific231G]

On 06/08/2023 at 14:18, 009 micro modeller said:

00n3 was quite popular when Triang TT was available, especially before RTR N gauge and Eggerbahn etc. made 009 easier to do. I wonder if it’ll become popular again.

 

Indeed - I remember (and still have) articles by people like Rev. PH Heath who jumped at it for NG modellin.  It never really went away, especially for modellers of Irish prototypes, but there were never that many 3ft gauge railways in the rest of the British Isles (Let's face it, there were never that many NG public railways of any gauge in Great Britain- there are quite possibly more now than there have ever been)

When I started modelling H0m rather than accepting "H0mish" (using H0e equipment and 9mm gauge) it was quite difficult, Swiss electric prototypes at high prices, apart  to get decent track or mechs. especially for steam locos, with the main source being East German (Zeuke/BerlinerTTBahn) or very expensive artisanal products. That always rather surprised me because metre gauge was so common in so much of Europe that there must have been a good poential market. Things changed when the wall came down and the likes of Tillig appeared and when Peco started offering 12mm gauge track.  Before then I did try using some of my old Tri-ang TT-3 stuff but found it simply too crude.

 

The arrival of N gauge made NG modelling vastly more popular and accessible to the "average" modellers with both H0e and 009, partly because there were more and better materials available for 9mm gauge than there ever had been for TT or TT-3 but also because, as with the prototype, a narrower gauge for a particular scale allows for tighter curves and therefore more compact layouts. You also had manufacturers like Lilliput, an Austrian firm, getting on board because H0e is fairly close to the 760mm gauge adopted as its secondary standard by the Austro-Hungarian empire and still quite common in Austria (though metre gauge was vastly more common elsewhere). NG modellers never seem to have minded that they were representing the  commonest submetric and particularly industrial narrow gauge (2ft/600mm) with track that was correct for 2ft 3in gauge in 4mm scale(, which , in Britan, meant the Talyllyn, Corris, Campbeltown and Machrihanish,  Glyn Valley (2ft 4in gauge so close enough) but very little else  or, worse still,  780mm in H0 which is even further from 600mm.  There is H0i/Hof using Z gauge 6.5mm track which is far closer to 600mm gauge but only a tiny minority seem to use. 

[Flying Pig]

47 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

When I started modelling H0m rather than accepting "H0mish" (using H0e equipment and 9mm gauge) it was quite difficult, Swiss electric prototypes at high prices, apart  to get decent track or mechs. especially for steam locos, with the main source being East German

 

12mm is of course closer to Cape gauge than it is to metre gauge in h0 scale.  There's a 25NC at Quainton Road waiting to be measured up.

[Hobby]

I don't think that the introduction of Hornby's TT120 will make any difference to 00n3 modelling. Why? Because most modellers of 00n3 these days tend to follow prototypes and so far there's been nothing in the range that could be used for prototype 3ft gauge. Early 00n3 layouts were truly freelance, think Midhaven, AVR, etc., but whilst we still see many freelance they tend to use prototype locos, especially now in 009 with all the RTR. There's also cost, the early 00n3 (and when I modelled in it in the 80s and 90s) used the cheap Triang and BTTB/Zeuke chassis, modern TT doesn't fall into that category and even the older stuff isn't cheap any more. Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but I doubt it.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

I don't think that the introduction of Hornby's TT120 will make any difference to 00n3 modelling. Why? Because most modellers of 00n3 these days tend to follow prototypes and so far there's been nothing in the range that could be used for prototype 3ft gauge. Early 00n3 layouts were truly freelance, think Midhaven, AVR, etc., but whilst we still see many freelance they tend to use prototype locos, especially now in 009 with all the RTR.

But is that because freelance modelling (if that’s what people want to do) is now easier to do in 009 than 00n3? For freelance purposes it doesn’t usually make as much difference if the gauge represented is 2’ - 2’ 6” or 3’. I can sort of see 00n3 on TT:120 chassis working for people who particularly want to build larger, bulkier freelance stock, but outside of that 009 has a tighter minimum radius and as they’re the same scale, the scale advantages of TT:120 over N gauge don’t apply.

 

9 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

It never really went away, especially for modellers of Irish prototypes, but there were never that many 3ft gauge railways in the rest of the British Isles

A bit off-topic but one place that did have them quite extensively, and potentially would have had locos that lend themselves a bit more to using TT chassis, is the Northamptonshire/East Midlands ironstone industry. The very similar metre gauge was also used there. There were also a few colliery lines, contractor’s railways (including those used for the building of reservoirs and main line railways), and (perhaps less relevant for this thread, given the sort of locos used) the Lincolnshire peat lines and Penmaenmawr granite quarries.

[Hobby]

In the hey days of 00n3 in the 60s and into the 70s they were truly freelance, locos were "based on" rather than models of prototypes. It also was popular because the 12mm mechanisms ran better than the early N scale models. I've not really seen a return to that sort of modelling except at the cheap end of 009 modelling and the "stick anything on a Kato chassis" breed, but that's because the Kato chassis are cheap, but there's no cheap 12mm gauge stuff, especially if you are looking to use Hornby or Tillig chassis as a basis fir freelance NG.

 

Hence I can't see 00n3 being reborn, people wanting to model in 00 NG are spoilt for choice in 009.

[Pacific231G]

Chemin de fer Économiques Forestiers des Landes

11 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

12mm is of course closer to Cape gauge than it is to metre gauge in h0 scale.  There's a 25NC at Quainton Road waiting to be measured up.

That's true but it's between the two and the divergence from exact scale gauge is about a quarter mm narrower and half a mm wider respectively. Both are less than the difference betweeen EM's 18.2mm and the exact scale of 18.87mm so barely if at all noticeable. 

Convenience of modelling seems to trump gauge accuracy. I've noticed in France, where for public railways  there were over 20,000km of metre gauge, about 440 km of 600mm gauge  and just 12km of 750mm gauge ,  that amost all narrow gauge modellers build often exquisite models of rural villages served by railways using 0e and H0e which, though commonly used to represent 600mm gauge prototypes, even more inaccurately than in 4mm scale, is  only really prototypical for the  12km Chemin de fer Économiques Forestiers des Landes which ran from 1907 to 1934 and of which there are only about three photos*. That used not to be the case when a number if artisanal manufacturers produced kits for 12mm gauge representations of the equipment used on the vast filigree of metre gauge lines (from roadside tramways to heavy railways like the Reseau Breton) that once covered the French countryside and are very attractive prototypes but. despite the greater avaiability of 12mm gauge and H0m equipment, metre gauge seems to be very much a minority taste.

 

* It seems to have bought some cheap secondhand industrial equipment from a German contractor so was allowed to deviate from the metre or 600mm gauge mandated for NG public railways in France. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Pacific231G

[teletougos]

On 11/08/2023 at 08:31, Hobby said:

 modern TT doesn't fall into that category and even the older stuff isn't cheap any more. Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but I doubt it.

Agreed. Piko started out cheap, presumably to get market share, but now it's getting up there with Tillig. 

 

And the 009 is so darn nice looking, with those Fairlies etc, that it's even tempting me. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by teletougos