Hornby announce TT:120

[teletougos]

On 08/05/2024 at 12:19, Steamport Southport said:

I'm afraid these things shouldn't be happening in 2024.

 

We are in a country which manufactures very little. This kind of thing is archetypally 2024. 

[MarkSG]

19 hours ago, Roy L S said:

Every other country as far as I can see (having quickly checked) simply calls the scale "TT" and "TT120" is purely a Hornby branding. 

 

It's simply TT everywhere else, because nowhere else used TT to mean 3mm/1ft. Peco introduced the name TT:120 for British outline stock constructed to 1:120 scale when they announced their entry into the market in 2022, about six months before Hornby did. Heljan also announced a TT:120 range in mid-2022, predating Hornby's announcement.

 

So Hornby didn't invent the term, they simply followed what had already been used by other manufacturers. Heljan referenced Peco in their initial press relase, so it looks as if Peco invented the label.

 

https://peco-uk.com/blogs/news/tt-120launch

 

https://www.Heljan.co.uk/post/no-compromises-british-outline-1-120-tt-is-here

[teletougos]

On 08/05/2024 at 10:53, moawkwrd said:

I may be off base here but I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of TT:120ers aren’t the type to go to shows in the first place, let alone physical shops to buy stock either, so it’s not surprising that people firmly in other scales aren’t seeing TT in those settings.

 

It’s all YouTube and online shopping these days for me at least. Unless it’s a local show/toy fair I’m not very interested. Whether that’s the same for all newcomers I can’t say but it wouldn’t surprise me.

That may line up with Ravenser's point.  I think there is some evidence for it.

 

"TT:120 has had some commercial success amongst those who weren't yet in the hobby, but much less so amongst those already in the hobby."

 

Substantial number who have joined the TT120 FB groups, which have been very successful, are new entrants to the hobby. Many have said it of themselves, and the kinds of questions asked on the FB groups make it pretty clear.

[ThaneofFife]

Ive not seen rafts of negative comments or suggestions about TT120 apart from my own fwiw comment saying 3mm would have been my personal preference.  Smaller than 00 but not as close to N as TT120 is.   

[J-Lewis]

49 minutes ago, ThaneofFife said:

Ive not seen rafts of negative comments or suggestions about TT120 apart from my own fwiw comment saying 3mm would have been my personal preference.  Smaller than 00 but not as close to N as TT120 is.   

Maybe we need a proper scale version of N to replace British N scale too? N:160?  :)

 

It's about time we got in line with the rest of the world.  Would have been so much easier for accessories, vehicles etc.

 

That was part of my reasoning for modelling British HO scale.

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

It's simply TT everywhere else, because nowhere else used TT to mean 3mm/1ft. Peco introduced the name TT:120 for British outline stock constructed to 1:120 scale when they announced their entry into the market in 2022, about six months before Hornby did. Heljan also announced a TT:120 range in mid-2022, predating Hornby's announcement.

 

So Hornby didn't invent the term, they simply followed what had already been used by other manufacturers. Heljan referenced Peco in their initial press relase, so it looks as if Peco invented the label.

 

https://peco-uk.com/blogs/news/tt-120launch

 

https://www.Heljan.co.uk/post/no-compromises-british-outline-1-120-tt-is-here

I'd be very surprised if Peco and Hornby didn't know that both were going to launch into the British market with TT. Peco was of course already well into the scale with track and I suspect that they'll be selling as much if not more of that into the rest of Europe than into Britain.  

I also rather dislike the TT120 term but accept the need for it. Thanks to Tri-ang Toys, for a whole generation of British modellers, TT meant 3mm/ft  scale and they were largely unaware that there was any other flavour of TT. 

It was Peco via Railway Modeller that coined the term TT-3 and, for several months after the launch in 1957, it was only they or those selling their track that used it. Curious, as the track was the one thing that was common to TT-3 and "proper" TT, which Peco was already supplying track for. (Rokal and to some extent HP and Kemtron etc. had been imported for several years before Tri-ang's launch and George Reffin was exhibiting a rather nice American TT layout) 

 

I did see in R-M around that time occasional use of the awkward (and technically incorrect) TT25 to differentiate normal TT based on it being close to 2.5mm/ft (actually 2.54mm/ft ) even though it was clearly defined as 1:120 or 1/10 inch to the foot which, if you do the sums, happens to give a very accurate track gauge of 1440mm with 12mm 

 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

1 hour ago, ThaneofFife said:

I've not seen rafts of negative comments or suggestions about TT120 apart from my own fwiw comment saying 3mm would have been my personal preference.  Smaller than 00 but not as close to N as TT120 is.   

 

43 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

Maybe we need a proper scale version of N to replace British N scale too? N:160?  :)

 

It's about time we got in line with the rest of the world.  Would have been so much easier for accessories, vehicles etc.

 

That was part of my reasoning for modelling British HO scale.

 

It was the accurate scale/gauge relationship of TT:120 that attracted it to me in the first place. 3mm on 12mm track is even worse than OO.

[Barry Ten]

9 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I'd be very surprised if Peco and Hornby didn't know that both were going to launch into the British market with TT. Peco was of course already well into the scale with track and I suspect that they'll be selling as much if not more of that into the rest of Europe than into Britain.  

 

 

 

This has been gone over before but the Peco TT:120 and Hornby TT:120 logos use what appears to be exactly the same design and typography. There must have been some dialogue.

[MarkSG]

 

54 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I'd be very surprised if Peco and Hornby didn't know that both were going to launch into the British market with TT.

 

I'd be surprised if Peco knew that Hornby were planning it. Heljan certainly didn't. And Hornby has a track record (pun intended, sorry, I'll get my coat!) of keeping things under wraps and then announcing something which duplicates other manufacturers' projects. Trains on Film, anyone? 

 

41 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

This has been gone over before but the Peco TT:120 and Hornby TT:120 logos use what appears to be exactly the same design and typography. There must have been some dialogue.

 

Hornby's TT:120 logo was registered as a trade mark in October 2022, which was after Peco announced their TT:120 range. But although they both use similar typography, with the two Ts overlapping, the Hornby logo as registered includes the red and yellow surround which distinguishes it from Peco's version. And, although the letters are almost identical, the numbers aren't.

 

I would be more inclined to think that Hornby copied the overlapping-T aspect from Peco and then modified it a bit, with the addition of colour and a slightly different typeface for the digits, in order to create a logo that was registerable as original.

[Roy L S]

2 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

Maybe we need a proper scale version of N to replace British N scale too? N:160?  :)

 

It's about time we got in line with the rest of the world.  Would have been so much easier for accessories, vehicles etc.

 

That was part of my reasoning for modelling British HO scale.

Smiley noted 😁. Not going to happen at any commercial level because (1) British N at 1:148 is far too well established (2) the discrepancy between the scale/gauge ratio is small, something like a scale 4 inches which is about 0.6mm so barely discernible and far less severe than OO, (3) it would create similar issues to that of establishing British TT120 in terms of range (4) if you want to model 2mm/ft British Outline you can already join the well established 2mm scale Association.

[GenericRMWebUsername]

51 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

 

I'd be surprised if Peco knew that Hornby were planning it. Heljan certainly didn't. And Hornby has a track record (pun intended, sorry, I'll get my coat!) of keeping things under wraps and then announcing something which duplicates other manufacturers' projects. Trains on Film, anyone? 

 

 

Hornby's TT:120 logo was registered as a trade mark in October 2022, which was after Peco announced their TT:120 range. But although they both use similar typography, with the two Ts overlapping, the Hornby logo as registered includes the red and yellow surround which distinguishes it from Peco's version. And, although the letters are almost identical, the numbers aren't.

 

I would be more inclined to think that Hornby copied the overlapping-T aspect from Peco and then modified it a bit, with the addition of colour and a slightly different typeface for the digits, in order to create a logo that was registerable as original.

Simon has mentioned that he and Peco were in contact before they both announced their respective products. 

[Hobby]

54 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

I'd be surprised if Peco knew that Hornby were planning it. Heljan certainly didn't. 

 

This has been covered before. Neither knew anything about each others plans for the scale (and on that basis we can assume neither knew about Heljan). SK and Peco have both said that the only reason they found out was their staff happened to mention it when chatting. I'd have thought they'd both be happy about it as well. It's somewhere I think in this thread, and elsewhere, one of the early SK interviews I think.

 

We've covered the Heljan thing ad infinitum, if you are a Hornby knocker you'll blame them but the evidence, Hornby's announcement and printed catalogue would suggest a parallel development without knowledge of the others plans, but that doesn't suit some. Conspiracy theories, eh!

[AY Mod]

19 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Neither knew anything about each others plans for the scale

 

I'd be surprised given how much chatter there was in the trade for 3-4 years before the announcement that Hornby were going deep into it.

[Hobby]

Deleted

Edited May 10 by Hobby

[HExpressD]

6 hours ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

And I do think some of these compromises will start being less frequent.

 

Hornby needed to create wagons that could reasonably represent LNER/NER/ER, SR, GWR/WR, and LMS/LMR prototypes. Why? Because the TT market is small. And when Hornby was designing these wagons, the market was completely unproven. If Hornby got too region specific, they would have needed to tool up many more variants with corresponding increases in costs. And the individual tooling might not generate sufficient sales to justify the investment. 

Indeed, the time will come for accurate diagram number wagons etc, as I believe the scale isn't going away (certainly hope not as I want to do a layout in it when I move) but for now, all there need be freight wise is an open, a van, a hopper, a mineral and a flat really, specific details not overly important at the off to most you'd assume

[natterjack]

Just had an email advising the imminent arrival of the Sonic GWR 'Large Prairie' 2-6-2T in N Gauge. It would be interesting to know whether they assessed the potential for sales in TT120, 'though I imagine the actual development times would not have allowed for the opportunity.

[Arun Sharma]

7 hours ago, teletougos said:

That may line up with Ravenser's point.  I think there is some evidence for it.

 

"TT:120 has had some commercial success amongst those who weren't yet in the hobby, but much less so amongst those already in the hobby."

 

Substantial number who have joined the TT120 FB groups, which have been very successful, are new entrants to the hobby. Many have said it of themselves, and the kinds of questions asked on the FB groups make it pretty clear.

That probably applies to me - I design and build kits in 7mm but don't have a 7mm layout for reasons of space [a bungalow]. The TT120 locos, rolling stock and track packs have made a layout a practical proposition. Who knows, I might even design myself a TT 16T mineral and BR 20T Brake Van in the absence of any other manufacturer producing them.

[009 micro modeller]

5 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

Maybe we need a proper scale version of N to replace British N scale too? N:160?  :)

 

It's about time we got in line with the rest of the world.  Would have been so much easier for accessories, vehicles etc.

 

That was part of my reasoning for modelling British HO scale.

Agreed, though it’s probably too late for 00 (and probably N and 0). And on a personal note I don’t want representing 2’ gauge on 9mm to suddenly become less accurate than it is at the moment.

 

Edit: has anyone actually done British 1:160? The odd thing is that, having not adopted the international scale, they used 1:148 rather than the 1:152 000 standard (as used for Lone Star and 2mm finescale).

Edited May 10 by 009 micro modeller

[osbornsmodels]

Quote

Andy stated

I'd be surprised given how much chatter there was in the trade for 3-4 years before the announcement that Hornby were going deep into it.

does anybody really think Peco would have developed any of their TT 120 range not knowing that already in the pipeline there was UK motive power planned (Peco do not normally develop locos with a couple of historical exceptions apart from the Kato Small and  Large Englands).

Now if Peco and Kato were to jointly develop a TT120 loco that would be fantastic but I don't have much hope.  However  we are surely heading into the era of joint cooperation between manufacturers going forward. Just my prediction

[Hobby]

There's a growing market for TT in Eastern Europe so the answer is yes. They are known in Europe for their track, most recently the H0e Mainline range which is now widely used across the Channel. They can see markets that many UK-centric enthusiasts simply don't appreciate are there. TT is just another example of this. The fact Hornby have joined has made it an even better investment.

[F-UnitMad]

Just now, Hobby said:

There's a growing market for TT in Eastern Europe so the answer is yes.

"Growing"..?? I thought Eastern Europe has been a bastion of TT and it's biggest market for decades?

Chris Ellis introduced those who read Airfix Model Trains mag from Jan 1980 onwards to such exotica, mostly Berliner Bahn, at prices that were dirt cheap.

Other things he introduced us to were American Short Lines, German Belt Lines & other branches, Narrow Gauge, and so much more - and how to model them on a budget and in reasonable spaces.

[Johan DC]

Interesting interview by Peter of Let’s make tracks on YT of Carl and Martyn of Hornby. 
 

 

 

[Hobby]

45 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

"Growing"..?? I thought Eastern Europe has been a bastion of TT and it's biggest market for decades?

Chris Ellis introduced those who read Airfix Model Trains mag from Jan 1980 onwards to such exotica, mostly Berliner Bahn, at prices that were dirt cheap.

 

Yes, growing.

 

I've been going to Eastern Europe virtually every year since the late nineties and can assure you from first hand knowledge that the TT market has grown. Peco also have people in their company and contacts over there that have seen the same thing. Way back in the communist era we had BTTB and a few others, since the fall we have seen it's decendant Tillig grow and grow. In addition to other major manufacturers such as Piko and Arnold there have also been a whole host of other manufacturers producing RTR TT of excellent quality and its slowly spreading West, we now see model shops in the old Western Gernany stocking TT, including Hornby. 

Edited May 10 by Hobby
Spelling

[F-UnitMad]

27 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Yes, growing.

 

I've been going to Eastern Europe virtually every year since the late nineties and can assure you from first hand knowledge that the TT market has grown

Ah, yes, comprehendy - fair enough, and interesting to know. As far as I could tell at the time, Berliner Bahn models were fairly basic back then. From what I've seen online, modern EU TT is as detailed as HO.

[Les1952]

4 hours ago, natterjack said:

Just had an email advising the imminent arrival of the Sonic GWR 'Large Prairie' 2-6-2T in N Gauge. It would be interesting to know whether they assessed the potential for sales in TT120, 'though I imagine the actual development times would not have allowed for the opportunity.

 

Sonic were originally a one-man band, so I suspect probably not.  They are too near start-up to contemplate a third scale.  This is their first loco with any form of outside valve gear.

 

Les