Hornby announce TT:120

[irishmail]

Yes the Peco code 55 rail is actually code 80.  Its the way it has been moulded into the sleepers to make it look like code 55, this is the same for both the TT:120 track and N gauge track.

[Ravenser]

TT:120 has had some commercial success amongst those who weren't yet in the hobby, but much less so amongst those already in the hobby. While I don't expect many people who already have a layout in another scale to change scales, there would seem to be a significant number of people "in 4mm" who don't have space for any kind of 4mm layout at home and who have no medium-term prospect of having it.  (Having been in the past involved with an ultimately abortive layout project, I can testify that nearly all the group seemed to be in that category. The traditional plan B for such modellers was to get involved with an exhibition layout, but with the exhibition circuit currently about half the size it was pre-pandemic - certainly in terms of layout bookings - and the larger 2 day shows most affected, that opportunity is now greatly reduced). And TT:120 could appeal to those looking for a side project - by definition there will be more limited space available for that . 

 

What might persuade people already in the hobby to give it a try is seeing layouts in the scale. But layouts - developed model railways have so far been conspicuously absent. And I haven't seen very much from people saying they are planning or have started building a layout in this scale.

 

So I was interested to see this at a recent event - the first actual layout I've seen in the scale, bar the Hornby and Peco display layouts. (I believe there is another layout around, done by one of the Lincolnshire clubs, based on Dawlish though I haven't seen anything about it other than a growl on here about inappropriate stock running)

 

 

A sound fitted 50 and 66 were in evidence - presumably pre-production models - so pretty well everything that will be available in a matter of weeks barring the Duchess and Stanier coaches is visible in shot. The HST is 2 + 5 - slightly longer than the GW Castle sets, which would be very manageable in this scale. The station platforms would seem to take 5 x Mk3 / 6 x 57' coaches (the Pullman in the background is 6 car) .

 

The showguide quotes dimensions as 10' x 6' 

 

My first thoughts were - no fiddle yard, and for any home layout that's something that would have to be addressed. Also human beings don't scale : the centre well looked rather tight, so I think 7' would be a practical minimum width for a centre operated continuous circuit layout 

 

Cyrl Freezer floated the idea of a standard garage - 16 x 8' or larger - as a home for a model railway. I'm unconvinced by sharing a garage with a car, and unsealed concrete floors are not desirable. However my parents built a normal room as an extension behind a double garage - it was used for storage , took a desk, and was used by Dad for float making , tying fshing hooks and the like. It was heated. It struck me over the years as a potential model railway room, though perhaps awkward in 4mm . Access was from the side, and it was heated, floored and decorated like a normal domestic room 

 

Such an extension, maybe 8-9' wide and 7' deep would take this kind of layout in 1/120 scale. A lift out bridge on one of the short sides would cover access - an outward opening door would be prefectly normal here. . If behind a single garage you would probably have to drop back to a secondary route , maybe single track, with platforms taking 4 coaches and a loco comfortably.  Bookshelves or storage cupboards could go underneath  - possibly a desk or workbench could be arranged (do storage sidings in this scale need more than an 18'" wide board?) 

 

A 12 x 8 garden shed would allow a more expansive mainline layout, probably taking 8 coach trains

 

Overall, the effect on display was crisp and well executed , reflecting the fact that everything in this scale is to modern standards. Critical comparison with individual models in other scales skates over the fact that the existing scales carry a considerable legacy of older models , especially in the second hand market, which will not be to current cutting edge  standards

 

(It's worth noting that both the TT:120 layouts I'm aware of are sponsored projects, built to demostrate the new scale. 18 months after the  Hornby announcement - longer since the Peco one - I'm not aware of any private layout projects in 1/120 scale British outline. That does testify to significant resistance to the scale within the established hobby: I think what is needed is for people to actually see layouts in it, but it looks rather like a chicken and egg situation. Dawlish as a subject flags that 1970s/80s WR should shortly be possible: the big signature item that is missing is a Western . I don't expect one RTR - a bodyshell should be available from Lincoln Locos , but motorising it looks like a bit of a challenge, given the exposed wheels characteristic of a Western. Hymeks in TT:120 have already been done by several people. On the other hand once the Class 37 is out in TT:120 there should be a straightforward route to motorising a Deltic bodyshell so the ECML should be doable. How far the 50 can be used I'm not certain - are the EE bogies under a 50 identical to the 37 and Deltic?)

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

TT:120 has had some commercial success amongst those who weren't yet in the hobby, but much less so amongst those already in the hobby.

 

Go on then; how can you qualify such a statement? Making facts up again?

 

5 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

(I believe there is another layout around, done by one of the Lincolnshire clubs, based on Dawlish though I haven't seen anything about it other than a growl on here about inappropriate stock running)

 

Well if you read BRM or looked at updates on World of Railways you would be marginally better informed.

[Lee1975]

On 03/05/2024 at 12:31, Michanglais said:

 

I had wondered the same thing. I may be waaaay off (I really am talking out of my @rse here) but I thought the 2Fs were introduced for WCML use until most services were taken over my Mk3s. Obviously, I stand to be corrected!

I may be completely wrong,  I thought the Paddington-West Country formations were mainly mk2e’s in the 80’s (with a mk2c brake/mk1 BG also in the mix).

 

Not sure if mk2f’s made it down on the Manchester or services from further north (such as the summer Saturday’s to Newquay).

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

I'm not aware of any private layout projects in 1/120 scale British outline.

 

There are plenty on view on the many FB TT120 Groups, also i believe a few clubs have taken up the scale. One or two on here, though mine is taking longer than I would like...

 

TBH, though, as we are not long over a year in and the range isn't very wide so I wouldn't expect there to be many just yet.

[Ravenser]

Quote

TT:120 has had some commercial success amongst those who weren't yet in the hobby, but much less so amongst those already in the hobby. 

I went to Railex last year - there was not a trace of the new scale. At DEMU Showcase pretty much the same , bar a couple of items on the West Hill stand.  One retailer had some models  at Ally Pally this year though they weren't prominent - that;s one more than last year.  If there's been any reference to a new scale in MRJ I've missed it, - despite an accurate scale/gauge ratio being the holy grail of the finescale movement. The finescale people aren't averse to minority interests and different standards - but it seems, not this one. Something similar could be said of DEMU Update. It must indicate  something that after 18 months or so  two of the 3  most popular posts in this tread remain a post describing the whole thing as a pointless waste of money and effort, and a crack about the Titfield Thunderbolt. 

 

I'n not very heavily into the Facebook groups - but what I've seen posted on there looks more like developed trainsets than layouts as we generally think of them, I don't recall what you would call a conventional model railway layout in 1/120 being shown. And the demographic there does seem to lean strongly to people new to the hobby. Enough people are buying this for items to go out of stock and retailers to want to carry it, but I can only remember one layout design thread on here (from someone who had started with a developed trainset and immediately wanted to go further) , and I can't recall any layout project threads on here for British outline 1/120, certainlty not where construction had started. There are none active in the TT:120 section here. Those few initially talking about possibly building a layout on here seem to have lost or be losing interest. The few casual comments about the new scale I've heard from other modellers face to face have been negative - I recall someone saying that Czech TT was one of their interests, but they wouldn;t be touching Hornby's TT:120 "because it's not proper TT". There seems to be a surpisingly common belief that there's something off about the scale - that the coaches are being made to a different scale to the locos , and that Hornby had invented a new scale are two I've heard. No basis that I know of for any of it, but it bubbles away

 

I think there is significantly more potential interest in TT:120 from the existing hobby than appears on the surface , but the fact that very little is appearing on the surface is significant. You would expect a new commercial scale to spark some enthusiasm in the hobby, but its quite difficult to find interest, positivity and activity at shows, amongst groups of existing modellers, or in large parts of the media. Several magazines are certainly supportive, but it's not clear this is spilling over into very much activity among existing railway modellers.

 

Hornby said initially they were targetting newcomers rather than the existing hobby, although there was a degree of scepticism whether that would work . But it seems to be the way it is actually playing out. 

 

On 10/10/2022 at 16:42, Allegheny1600 said:

For me, one of the biggest selling points is that the scale to gauge ratio is correct.

That and the fact that I could get a quart into a pint pot without having to wear magnifying glasses is a help.

 

However, I think that Hornby aren’t really trying to sell to you!

They’re after people who aren’t already established in the hobby, with large collections in different scales, well okay - a bit but not as their core market.

Maybe they’re after the “millennials” who have made onto the housing ladder but only just, or even still renting a flat or living with parents. What I’m trying to say is those people who don’t have a lot of space but still want to build a layout of their own.

My apologies if this is you, Jason!

 

On 10/10/2022 at 16:56, Dunsignalling said:

That implies a target market that's largely ignorant of model railways in general but with an inclination to suddenly splurge significant money on a new hobby without really checking out the "scene" beforehand.

 

Do such people actually exist?

 

John

 

Layouts will be the way the way to convince people already in the hobby.   I'm just not sure the layouts are coming through - apart from those sponsored by magazines

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

I went to Railex last year - there was not a trace of the new scale. At DEMU Showcase pretty much the same , bar a couple of items on the West Hill stand.  One retailer had some models  at Ally Pally this year though they weren't prominent - that;s one more than last year.  If there's been any reference to a new scale in MRJ I've missed it, - despite an accurate scale/gauge ratio being the holy grail of the finescale movement. The finescale people aren't averse to minority interests and different standards - but it seems, not this one. Something similar could be said of DEMU Update. It must indicate  something that after 18 months or so  two of the 3  most popular posts in this tread remain a post describing the whole thing as a pointless waste of money and effort, and a crack about the Titfield Thunderbolt. 

 

I'n not very heavily into the Facebook groups - but what I've seen posted on there looks more like developed trainsets than layouts as we generally think of them, I don't recall what you would call a conventional model railway layout in 1/120 being shown. And the demographic there does seem to lean strongly to people new to the hobby. Enough people are buying this for items to go out of stock and retailers to want to carry it, but I can only remember one layout design thread on here (from someone who had started with a developed trainset and immediately wanted to go further) , and I can't recall any layout project threads on here for British outline 1/120, certainlty not where construction had started. There are none active in the TT:120 section here. Those few initially talking about possibly building a layout on here seem to have lost or be losing interest. The few casual comments about the new scale I've heard from other modellers face to face have been negative - I recall someone saying that Czech TT was one of their interests, but they wouldn;t be touching Hornby's TT:120 "because it's not proper TT". There seems to be a surpisingly common belief that there's something off about the scale - that the coaches are being made to a different scale to the locos , and that Hornby had invented a new scale are two I've heard. No basis that I know of for any of it, but it bubbles away

 

I think there is significantly more potential interest in TT:120 from the existing hobby than appears on the surface , but the fact that very little is appearing on the surface is significant. You would expect a new commercial scale to spark some enthusiasm in the hobby, but its quite difficult to find interest, positivity and activity at shows, amongst groups of existing modellers, or in large parts of the media. Several magazines are certainly supportive, but it's not clear this is spilling over into very much activity among existing railway modellers.

 

Hornby said initially they were targetting newcomers rather than the existing hobby, although there was a degree of scepticism whether that would work . But it seems to be the way it is actually playing out. 

 

 

 

Layouts will be the way the way to convince people already in the hobby.   I'm just not sure the layouts are coming through - apart from those sponsored by magazines

 

Those are all observations and opinions; can you not understand the difference between that and you stating things as facts? It really, really irritates me.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

And the demographic there does seem to lean strongly to people new to the hobby.

Why is this a bad thing? It does suggest that TT120 is bringing in people who for whatever reason (probably lack of space, given the comparison with 00, though that assumes they don’t want to do N gauge for some reason) haven’t been ‘in’ the hobby before (though they might follow it and have a small amount of stock in a larger scale but not have anything actually running yet). As a narrow gauge modeller I find 009 to be a good size, with the presence and detail of 00 but N gauge track geometry so it takes up less space. Whenever I’ve looked into doing even a tiny layout in standard gauge 00 it has quickly become apparent that the space required for an equivalent track layout is substantially larger than 009, even if really simple, small radius and only designed for short 4-wheeled locos and stock. So TT could be an option for me in future (and even more so for those strange people who only like standard gauge and therefore don’t see 009 as an option 😜). 

 

But anyway, with the number of people melodramatically predicting ‘the death of the hobby’ (or perhaps it’s just the death of traditional RTR, which isn’t really the same thing), surely it’s good to see more newcomers?

Edited May 6 by 009 micro modeller

[Phil Parker]

5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

(I believe there is another layout around, done by one of the Lincolnshire clubs, based on Dawlish though I haven't seen anything about it other than a growl on here about inappropriate stock running)

 

We have put each video in the free World of Railways newsletter, which is mailed out to over 20,000 people every Friday, so it's not like the thing is hidden.

 

To help, here's a link to the full set of videos -

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRS9-yJBXTPCqYiELLrUSBP4y98bSNEwH

 

[britishcolumbian]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Those few initially talking about possibly building a layout on here seem to have lost or be losing interest.

In their defence - I'm one of them - we've still only got a rather limited selection of stuff to buy.

 

In my own case, I'm living overseas right now, and it'll be a good six months before I can seriously start working on anything, and I'm not in a big rush to start until there's more GWR/WR stuff available, as my plan is to model Pen Mill - alongside my existing Hungarian project, for which I'm much closer to being able to start work (in terms of research, models/kits owned, etc).

 

But the main thing is - we're only 18 months in, what do you expect, honestly? Rome wasn't built in a day.

[froobyone]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

and I can't recall any layout project threads on here for British outline 1/120, certainlty not where construction had started. There are none active in the TT:120 section here.

 

 

I've been building a TT:120 layout on here for the last five months and you haven't seen even one of my posts?

Guess I'm an F117 Stealth Poster.

[Porfuera]

6 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 So I was interested to see this at a recent event - the first actual layout I've seen in the scale, bar the Hornby and Peco display layouts.

[snip]

 

The showguide quotes dimensions as 10' x 6' 

 

Even if you don't read BRM or receive the updates on World of Railways, the full build of Twelvemill Bridge is documented here - I'd have thought it would be pretty difficult to miss if you were googling TT:120 layouts. Plus there are quite a few YT videos of it on various channels.

 

https://www.keymodelworld.com/article/building-twelvemill-bridge-tt120-part-one

 

Edited May 6 by Porfuera

[Les1952]

I accept that my venture into TT:120 doesn't count as far as most on this thread would seem to be concerned, but I've been building Bregstadt since Hornby first announced TT:120 and have used it to get my skill set acclimatised to a new (for me) scale- having previously built exhibition layouts in OO, N (UK), N(continental), N(US),  and HO of which the second Continental N and the most recent OO layouts are still on the circuit.

I've also been using it as a test bed for Hornby and Peco stock.  So far I've established I can't use Pacifics on a layout that will fit in my car, and that I will probably need another two years before the J94 joins the J50 and I can build my UK outline exhibition train set.

Meanwhile Bregstadt is out at Syyston MRC's show next weekend then at Sleaford, Ruddington, and Hinclkey in the coming months.

 

 

Whitelaw on test (which it failed- it still doesn't like my R2 corners)

 

 

On the other hand THIS Hornby product sails round them......   Vans in tow are also a Hornby product.  Note the train crew- fitted in the cab by the manufacturer as standard.

 

Les

[J-Lewis]

It’s strange to see comments like those by ravenser.  Why even comment in the thread if you’re not interested in the scale? 
It’s only been 18 months since the announcement and so far Hornby seem to have sold an absolute truckload of A4s etc. and have continued to release models they announced.

Their latest releases like the HST, TAA tankers and the full brakes continue to be as beautifully detailed as the launch models, and there are a number of high profile models coming over the next few months like the Class 50, the MK2 coaches and so on. 
Class 37 is due next year, plus the new tank engines etc. so it’s very easy to see where the potential is for layout themes that use those initial models.

It’s not all plain sailing, there have been delays for the releases so far, and a few niggles like rubbing brake shoes on the 12T tank wagon or radius 2 corner running on the full brakes, but so far those have been easily fixed and would seem to be a byproduct of Hornby working flat out to meet demand.

 

Edited May 7 by J-Lewis
Spulling errurs

[Hobby]

13 hours ago, Ravenser said:

1. I'n not very heavily into the Facebook groups - but what I've seen posted on there looks more like developed trainsets than layouts as we generally think of them, I don't recall what you would call a conventional model railway layout in 1/120 being shown.

 

2. I can't recall any layout project threads on here for British outline 1/120, certainlty not where construction had started. There are none active in the TT:120 section here.

 

3. There seems to be a surpisingly common belief that there's something off about the scale - that the coaches are being made to a different scale to the locos , and that Hornby had invented a new scale are two I've heard. No basis that I know of for any of it, but it bubbles away

 

4. Layouts will be the way the way to convince people already in the hobby.   I'm just not sure the layouts are coming through - apart from those sponsored by magazines

 

1. So what is a "layout as we generally know them" but a "developed trainset"!

 

2. Here, I'll  help you find one (though as I said it's taking longer than intended - wiring underway!), though as you say most users of TT120 currently seem to be newer modellers and they favour FB over RMWeb: 

 

 

3. Is there, does it? Where? Other than your post just now please show us!

 

4. As I and others have said we are only 18 months in, what do you expect at such an early stage?

[MarkSG]

20 hours ago, Ravenser said:

TT:120 has had some commercial success amongst those who weren't yet in the hobby, but much less so amongst those already in the hobby.  

 

If true (and I note subsequent comments which cast some doubt on this statement), then that's exactly what Hornby want. They want TT:120 to open up new markets not cannibalise their existing OO market. It's also exactly what the bobby as a whole needs; a new entry point for those not previously involved in it.

 

I'm one of the people who's unlikely ever to do anything in TT:120, precisely because I have neither the space nor the time to work on different projects in multiple scales (and I'm already too committed to OO to drop that). But I hope TT:120 succeeds for a different demographic of modellers. I'm looking forward to seeing TT:120 layouts starting to turn up on the exhibition circuit alongside the other scales. 

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, MarkSG said:

If true (and I note subsequent comments which cast some doubt on this statement)

I'm not sure I'd give much credence to those comments... fact is that Hornby have barely been able to keep up with demand, how many batches of product have sold out? I'm very doubtful if Hornby are buying their own product up themselves just to make it look like they're doing well, so I think it's fairly safe to say that TT:120 has thus far been a commercial success.

[MarkSG]

6 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

I'm not sure I'd give much credence to those comments... fact is that Hornby have barely been able to keep up with demand, how many batches of product have sold out? I'm very doubtful if Hornby are buying their own product up themselves just to make it look like they're doing well, so I think it's fairly safe to say that TT:120 has thus far been a commercial success.

 

The aspect of the comment I was quoting on which subsequent comments cast doubt is the assertion that they're not selling to existing modellers, not that they are selling to new entrants.

 

I think it's fairly clear that TT:120 has been a commercial sucess, it's just not entirely clear where that success has come from.

[Les1952]

I think that most modellers in TT (TT:120) aren't on RMWeb.

 

I am currently on five different Facebook TT:120 groups, which cover different aspects of the scale.   

 

Between them (and I've just been on each in turn and double-checked) they currently have 12,114 members.

 

That is twelve thousand one hundred and fourteen.   

 

RMWeb claims 44,000 odd members covering all scales, and I suspect there aren't 12114 who are interested in TT:120.     Note also there are just as many Facebook groups on TT:120 that I am not a member of- and as a non-member I can't access their membership totals.

 

Les

 

Edited May 7 by Les1952
found RMWeb total.

[rob D2]

9 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

It’s strange to see comments like those by ravenser.  Why even comment in the thread if you’re not interested in the scale? 
It’s only been 18 months since the announcement and so far Hornby seem to have sold an absolute truckload of A4s etc. and have continued to release models they announced.

Their latest releases like the HST, TAA tankers and the full brakes continue to be as beautifully detailed as the launch models, and there are a number of high profile models coming over the next few months like the Class 50, the MK2 coaches and so on. 
Class 37 is due next year, plus the new tank engines etc. so it’s very easy to see where the potential is for layout themes that use those initial models.

It’s not all plain sailing, there have been delays for the releases so far, and a few niggles like rubbing brake shoes on the 12T tank wagon or radius 2 corner running on the full brakes, but so far those have been easily fixed and would seem to be a byproduct of Hornby working flat out to meet demand.

 

Are you new to the internet ?;)

Commenting on things you aren’t interested in or don’t know about is the bread and butter !

 

I watch as an interested OO er on the sidelines , hoping they make a go of it 

[AY Mod]

4 hours ago, Les1952 said:

most modellers in TT (TT:120) aren't on RMWeb.

 

No; are they all on Facebook then? Are they all buying customers? Are they all modellers? Nobody will know.

 

4 hours ago, Les1952 said:

Between them (and I've just been on each in turn and double-checked) they currently have 12,114 members.

 

That is twelve thousand one hundred and fourteen. 

 

Are none of them members of more than one Facebook group? It sounds like you are Les.

 

That's as skewed as Ravenser-reasoning at the other end of the spectrum.

 

Let's just accept that there are reasonable levels of interest, obviously sufficient to maintain Hornby's ongoing interest.

 

 

 

[Les1952]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

No; are they all on Facebook then? Are they all buying customers? Are they all modellers? Nobody will know.

 

 

Are none of them members of more than one Facebook group? It sounds like you are Les.

 

That's as skewed as Ravenser-reasoning at the other end of the spectrum.

 

Let's just accept that there are reasonable levels of interest, obviously sufficient to maintain Hornby's ongoing interest.

 

 

 

 

Very few names appear more than once, and most of the questions (of which there are lots most days) cover very basic stuff.   A lot of posts start "I've joined this group because I've just bought...."

 

I would hazard a guess based on the data that I can access  that of the twelve thousand about a quarter are members of more than one group and about half are based in Europe rather than the UK.   That still gives a fairly respectable estimate of between three and five thousand UK modellers of TT:120  who are in dedicated  Facebook groups.

 

I've also found 6 more groups that I'm not a member of and where I can't access the data.  These could be smaller, or like one of the groups I do belong to, have 7100 members.....

 

Les

 

 

[Jeff Smith]

Why does it matter - Hornby knows how much it has sold.  The customer list will give an idea of how many have actually bought something.  Some, like me, will have just bought a train set.  Others will have bought truck loads.....  It only actually matters to Hornby to facilitate production planning.....  All this pointless speculation is irrelevant!

[moawkwrd]

It’s plainly obvious that if you’re looking for evidence of the scale taking off or whatever, you aren’t necessarily going to find it in places like here for a multitude of reasons.

 

The whole point was to grow the hobby and get new people in - that those people aren’t joining internet forums to document their layouts isn’t surprising, if the demographics are trending younger than with the existing scales.

 

Comments like those dismissing train set operators probably don’t help encourage people either. People do steer clear of here various reasons.

[J-Lewis]

7 hours ago, moawkwrd said:

Comments like those dismissing train set operators probably don’t help encourage people either. People do steer clear of here various reasons.

Also for TT everyone is starting from scratch so buying a set makes perfect sense because it’s even better value than buying locos and track etc. separately.  I expect it’s what most of us have done.