Hornby announce TT:120

[HSB]

Those who want a GWR brake van could always buy the RTR one Osborn's Models are due to release shortly. They also do a growing range of wagon and coach kits with a strong GWR bias. 

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, HSB said:

Those who want a GWR brake van could always buy the RTR one Osborn's Models are due to release shortly. They also do a growing range of wagon and coach kits with a strong GWR bias. 

 

Yes, they are getting on board in quite a big way with 3D printed/laser cut stock and buildings, but hopefully not so big as for Hornby to consider them a threat!

 

Definitely enough playmates for a 57xx when it finally emerges.

[britishcolumbian]

17 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Yes, they are getting on board in quite a big way with 3D printed/laser cut stock and buildings, but hopefully not so big as for Hornby to consider them a threat!

If Hornby follow Tillig's model, then if a small company starts getting too much of a threat, they'll buy them up and just add their product to the range. Quite a few of Tillig's range were acquired this way - the DB 218, the DR V60, the E18 electric, several steam locomotives, a number of goods wagons... at the same time, though, there are/were quite a few other companies that didn't sell themselves to Tillig like that (I'm thinking mostly Beckmann and PMT as big enough to be a threat, but never sold out, whether out of conviction, or because they felt financially stable enough to say no, I don't know). I think it all depends on how territorial Hornby want to get with the scale.

[natterjack]

38 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

I think it all depends on how territorial Hornby want to get with the scale.

Despite all the anti Hornby blether and defiant defence of the Heljan 'capitulation' there is little evidence of this and, for the currently niche market truly grow in size, it would make considerable business sense to have multiple suppliers but without unnecessary duplication. As has been mentioned many times, the Southern Railway is an example market that remains an open field with not so much as the hint of a Merchant Navy from Horrnby (at least not within their current 3 to 4 year projections). I do, however, have continuing hopes for a Brighton Belle.

[britishcolumbian]

5 hours ago, natterjack said:

Despite all the anti Hornby blether and defiant defence of the Heljan 'capitulation' there is little evidence of this and, for the currently niche market truly grow in size, it would make considerable business sense to have multiple suppliers but without unnecessary duplication. As has been mentioned many times, the Southern Railway is an example market that remains an open field with not so much as the hint of a Merchant Navy from Horrnby (at least not within their current 3 to 4 year projections). I do, however, have continuing hopes for a Brighton Belle.

Well, I think we can't know yet either way how Hornby will react, as there hasn't been anyone of significant size declare their intention to enter the fray since Hornby came in.

 

I agree with you about the utility of multiple suppliers without duplication, though. And a Merchant Navy is fairly high on my own wishlist...

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

Well, I think we can't know yet either way how Hornby will react, as there hasn't been anyone of significant size declare their intention to enter the fray since Hornby came in.

 

I agree with you about the utility of multiple suppliers without duplication, though. And a Merchant Navy is fairly high on my own wishlist...

 

Yes, but what adopters of UK-outline TT:120 consider beneficial for their involvement and what Hornby consider to be desirable for their business may differ.

 

My assessment is that Hornby expect the market, at least for r-t-r locomotives, to remain exclusively "theirs" for the first five years. That may slow development, but they will want to control the process.

 

All the potential "joiners" within the UK are the same outfits that exposed Hornby's market-share vulnerability in OO that, at least in part, drove their adoption of TT:120, and seem to be doing very well in the aftermath. Hornby will fight like hell to prevent that being repeated in their new fiefdom.

 

Would any of them divert OO/N resources to dabble in TT:120 at the cost of lower returns and a probable punch-up with Hornby?  Not, I venture, unless the grass on the TT:120 side of the fence starts to look greener than where they are currently standing.

 

In short, no other UK r-t-r brand seems likely to expand into TT:120 for a good while yet (if ever), simply because none of them need to. 

 

John

Edited April 4 by Dunsignalling

[Hobby]

13 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Hornby had an existing CAD to use as a basis, and they can move quickly to squash competition — see Terrier. It would have been folly to continue. There seemed to be co-ordination between Peco, Heljan and Gaugemaster; I wonder if Peco had concluded that Hornby were never going to introduce TT120, and had turned to Heljan to produce locos much as happened with the L&B range in 009.

 

It's on record (from SK and Peco have never denied it) that Peco and Hornby were completely unaware of each others plans for TT and only a chance conversation revealed their plans to each other. Heljan still produce stuff in 00, and have also produced a new loco despite Kato and Bachmann entering 009, so this rumour that Hornby deliberately went out of their way to quash any competition form Heljan doesn't ring true. Who knows what the manufacturers thought, but to be fair to Hornby they said publically that the range had been planned for 5 years (2017 was quoted) before launch and it'd be fairly certain that a stock list/line-up would have been done fairly early in that timescale to justify the investment. Heljan had the cad for the 31 so there was no reason for them not to do it other than their own reluctance following Hornby's announcement, to try to somehow blame Hornby is disingenuous at the very least, or is just pure Hornby bashing.

[Dunsignalling]

14 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

It's on record (from SK and Peco have never denied it) that Peco and Hornby were completely unaware of each others plans for TT and only a chance conversation revealed their plans to each other. Heljan still produce stuff in 00, and have also produced a new loco despite Kato and Bachmann entering 009, so this rumour that Hornby deliberately went out of their way to quash any competition form Heljan doesn't ring true. Who knows what the manufacturers thought, but to be fair to Hornby they said publically that the range had been planned for 5 years (2017 was quoted) before launch and it'd be fairly certain that a stock list/line-up would have been done fairly early in that timescale to justify the investment. Heljan had the cad for the 31 so there was no reason for them not to do it other than their own reluctance following Hornby's announcement, to try to somehow blame Hornby is disingenuous at the very least, or is just pure Hornby bashing.

 

Pure coincidence, IMHO, but launch day is way too early for any duplicated model to even potentially succeed in a new scale! Neither party would make a cent out of it.

 

Heljan clearly had nothing else up their sleeves, and decided to exit the stage, just as they did through lack of interest in a proposed HO Class 37 many years ago.

 

John

Edited April 4 by Dunsignalling

[Hobby]

Agreed, but by that logic if Heljan had still gone ahead it's likely that Hornby would have backed down instead, it's the "Hornby were the bully" comments I was addressing, they weren't, it was simply a commercial choice by Heljan based on what the likelihood was they could get theirs out first and get the sales.

[Dunsignalling]

55 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Agreed, but by that logic if Heljan had still gone ahead it's likely that Hornby would have backed down instead, it's the "Hornby were the bully" comments I was addressing, they weren't, it was simply a commercial choice by Heljan based on what the likelihood was they could get theirs out first and get the sales.

 

But the people who Hornby are aiming TT:120 at are those who, we are regularly informed, regard "model trains" and "Hornby" as exclusively synonymous.  

 

I suspect any Heljan 31 was very far from becoming reality or they might have persevered. Given their emphasis on diesel prototypes, most alternatives would carry a similar risk of duplication. The UK scene really doesn't offer a huge number of  "mainstream" post-steam locomotive subjects to chose from.....

 

If it were me, I'd have chosen something that almost never ran on the ECML 😉. Maybe the first in a range of WR hydraulics.

 

In the (IMHO) remote eventuality that anyone else is planning something in TT:120, I don't expect any publicity before the models are on the boat. Terriergate still throws a long shadow...

 

John

Edited April 4 by Dunsignalling

[GrumpyPenguin]

22 hours ago, Roy L S said:

But then TT120 is the rarest of things, a brand new modelling scale in model railways

Really ?

TT120 has been (& still is) alive & well for decades over the Channel.

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

In short, no other UK r-t-r brand seems likely to expand into TT:120 for a good while yet (if ever), simply because none of them need to.

 

On this - specifically UK RTR brand -  you may very well be right. But it's insular thinking: you're ignoring Continental manufacturers, some of whom may see the failure of other UK brands to get involved as an opportunity to expand into a new market for themselves.

[Roy L S]

13 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

Really ?

TT120 has been (& still is) alive & well for decades over the Channel.

I was referring to a brand new scale as regards British models and the UK Market which given that the thread title is "Hornby Announces TT120" I thought fairly obvious.

[90rob]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

...that Peco and Hornby were completely unaware of each others plans for TT and only a chance conversation revealed their plans to each other. 

I do wonder, given their range of  gwr based laser cut kits, if Peco were 'testing the water' for' another go at the Collett goods - or did perhaps the n gauge offering put them off forever...?

[Legend]

It’s a crowded market place out there . That’s the reason that Hornby went TT120 to create a new market and make a bigger return . The problem Hornby have is that they do seem to have limited manufacturing slots or capacity . So in these circumstances it’s quite possible some one could come in and dabble in TT120 . Heljan is the obvious one and I still think the 31 could still be a goer or maybe a 20 or 25 .  The question for them is would they make more money out of a TT120 model than produce yet another variant of an OO model .  I suppose the tooling and CAD costs would be similar , so it comes down to how many they could sell . Another OO 25,26.27,28.33,45,47 anyone ……or could we make more money on a TT 20/25/31 ?

Edited April 4 by Legend

[Hobby]

A 20 or 25 would suit me fine, but I suspect you are wrong about Heljan being the manufacturer, I still suspect there's one if the current TT manufacturers watching, though I recon it'll be 2 or 3 years away.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, britishcolumbian said:

 

On this - specifically UK RTR brand -  you may very well be right. But it's insular thinking: you're ignoring Continental manufacturers, some of whom may see the failure of other UK brands to get involved as an opportunity to expand into a new market for themselves.

Which is entirely reasonable, and unlikely to keep anyone awake worrying, on this side of the channel. 

 

If the other UK brands are fully occupied with their various "day jobs", and making or bettering their budgeted returns from them, declining to get involved is surely a business choice, not a failure. 

 

For reasons of their own, Hornby diversified out of OO. There's no logical reason why following suit would confer the same (or even any) nett benefits on competitors whose circumstances, size, and aspirations inevitably differ. 

 

UK TT:120 is Hornby's baby and it's primarily intended to further their business aims,  nobody else's! 

 

John

 

Edited April 4 by Dunsignalling

[Moxy]

31 minutes ago, 90rob said:

I do wonder, given their range of  gwr based laser cut kits, if Peco were 'testing the water' for' another go at the Collett goods - or did perhaps the n gauge offering put them off forever...?

 

I think it's unlikely Peco would get into RTR TT120.  IIRC those n gauge locos they did, the Collett & the Jubilee, there was only one batch of each and they took forever to sell, which is why Peco haven't gone there since.

 

Their most recent involvement with RTR in 009 has been in cooperation with other manufacturers, such as Kato & Heljan.  I think it much more likely we will see GWR rolling stock (either RTR or kits) from Peco and that in turn will persuade another manufacturer to look at the Collett goods in TT120.

[natterjack]

3 minutes ago, Moxy said:

IIRC those n gauge locos they did, the Collett & the Jubile

Weren't those the outcome of a collaboration (pre Hornby Rivarossi seems to come to mind)?

[Roy L S]

20 minutes ago, Moxy said:

 

I think it's unlikely Peco would get into RTR TT120.  IIRC those n gauge locos they did, the Collett & the Jubilee, there was only one batch of each and they took forever to sell, which is why Peco haven't gone there since.

 

Their most recent involvement with RTR in 009 has been in cooperation with other manufacturers, such as Kato & Heljan.  I think it much more likely we will see GWR rolling stock (either RTR or kits) from Peco and that in turn will persuade another manufacturer to look at the Collett goods in TT120.

It was reported that following the Collett Goods 0-6-0 in N Peco said they would not make any further locos, as they were/are primarily a model railway track manufacturer. 

 

In terms of the two locos produced, you are partly correct. The Jubilee was made for Peco by Rivarossi of Italy, and there were three different incarnations. The first in LMS black can be identified as having driving wheels coupled with gears (the rods did not do the work - just cosmetic - on the front wheelset there wasn't even a crankpin). The next batch dispensed with the gear-coupled driving wheels, the rods then connecting all wheels, again LMS black, a final batch were produced in LMS crimson in the early 80s. Interestingly the Jubilee was never produced in BR livery. Batch sizes were quite large for the market and took many years to sell through.

 

I think there may have been only one batch of Colletts in different liveries, although it was upgraded from initially having only a single traction tyre on the tender to having two. Peco were unfortunately for them too far ahead of the Market in that the loco had a DCC chip onboard, but an oddball 4 pin Lenz job, this was used to help "justify" a premium price of £130 which was a lot when released, of course not helped by the loco being UK manufactured adding to cost. One of the biggest issues with this loco was the choice of tender used to house the mechanism, a larger (I think 3,500 gallon) one which was extremely rare for this particular loco and look out of proportion. It was/is though a model of utmost quality.

 

Peco have of course since collaborated with Kato to produce 009 locos, which seems to confirm they have no desire to produce further locos on their own, and I suspect a similar collaboration would be the only way Peco would be involved in a TT120 loco.

 

Roy

Edited April 4 by Roy L S

[1andrew1]

5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

In short, no other UK r-t-r brand seems likely to expand into TT:120 for a good while yet (if ever), simply because none of them need to. 

 

John

If Hornby does retain Oxford Rail, would it make sense to direct that brand to focus its efforts on TT120 as well? Maybe it could play to its strength in wagons?

Edited April 4 by 1andrew1

[Legend]

We could do with some joined up thinking . For instance when the Hornby TT120 class 37 turns up 18 months - 2 years time it would be good to have blue grey mk1s . At the same time Peco  could scale down their current OO laser cut West Highland Buildings . Rannoch in TT120 ……..mmmmmm 

Edited April 4 by Legend

[InterCity80s]

Accurascale are diving in (sort of 😉 ):

 

Accurascale Research Team - Three Figure Pack - TT (1/120th) Scale

Edited April 4 by InterCity80s

[GrumpyPenguin]

3 hours ago, Roy L S said:

I was referring to a brand new scale as regards British models and the UK Market which given that the thread title is "Hornby Announces TT120" I thought fairly obvious.

 Not that obvious at all as Hornby are also in the European market - Jouef, Lima & so on...

[Porfuera]

42 minutes ago, 1andrew1 said:

If Hornby does retain Oxford Rail, would it make sense to direct that brand to focus its efforts on TT120 as well? Maybe it could play to its strength in wagons?

 

I seem to remember someone saying that the Hornby TT:120 12T tanks might have some connection with Oxford - a quick google shows the Fisons, Mobil and Carless ones in 00 from Oxford with the same running numbers as the TT:120 ones, plus the two new ones announced this week.

 

Also, wasn't there an announcement of a Class 66 from Gaugemaster at one point? IIRC there wasn't even CAD for that and it was withdrawn even quicker than Heljan's 31.

 

I also don't subscribe to the theory that Heljan were 'forced out' of TT:120 - they simply took a business decision to pull out. Heljan couldn't be sure whether they would've got their 31 to market before Hornby given that Hornby has been developing their TT:120 range for years as had already been said. Heljan don't have any magic solutions when it comes to getting developments to market - I keep saying I've been waiting for their Class 02 since September 2020. OK the Class 02 is a new loco for them whereas a 31 would use existing research and maybe some of the existing CAD but they'd still need at least a couple of years if not more to do the rest of the work that comes after that.