Hornby announce TT:120

[Roy L S]

4 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

With regards the first paragraph, it's difficult to compare, but compared to the launch of TT3 and early British N gauge he's right, they have launched more variety in a much shorter space of time, and especially compared with some of the early British N gauge models, and of much better quality. It's a difficult one to judge as there isn't really anything to directly compare it to, though, as manufacturing was very different back in the 50s and 60s, and expectations from enthusiasts much lower than today.

 

With regards to the second paragraph, I ask you "Which Manufacturers are you referring to?". There's an awful lot of TT120 stuff out there produced by the cottage industry manufacturers. Granted some others are waiting to see if it's worthwhile but I'd expect some of them to start producing in the next 12 months. Contrary to your conversations the ones I've spoken to at shows are planning stuff and are positive, others are in the "wait and see" mode which is what I'd expect this early in the launch. However if you look at what's available now it's already quite easy to furnish a British layout in TT with suitable buildings and accessories, in fact the only building I don't have is a suitable signal box for a NW England based layout, the rest of the buildings I have.

I wasn't comparing to early British N, I was referring to the focus Bachmann had on re-establishing a new Graham Farish N range in the mid to late 2000s ("noughties") following their takeover of the UK based Poole operation and initial use of the original Poole designed models made in China. There was a pretty relentless introduction of new tool models for a time, and as I say in one year I recall seven new locos alone plus significant rolling stock. A slightly different scenario granted, but the scale in Britain had to be grown again from a low point where very little British N was produced by anyone following closure of the Poole factory in 1999 and Bachmann re-starting Farish production in China some time later (two ish years?) followed by the brand new models to which I refer. 

 

In terms of manufacturers I have spoken to, suffice to say universal names in our world so mainstream rather than "cottage" industry types who currently have no plans to enter the TT120 space and who produce a range of N products already. Inevitably any manufacturer with an ounce of business sense will watch the TT120 situation closely, I wouldn't suggest otherwise. 

 

In terms of cottage industry involvement, I think the advent of 3D printing has helped enormously, and I would not challenge that there is support for TT120 from that area and I feel pretty confident that some innovative designer will produce 0-6-0 models that fit the J50 chassis in time.

 

It is interesting to compare the introduction of TT120 to TT3 and look at how that evolved. There are some quite legitimate direct comparisons as TT3 was a complete range introduced by one manufacturer, and in a very similar way to TT120 the scale started with a very limited range (just two locos for example - Jinty and Castle) and was scaled up from that initial launch in a similar way as Hornby are doing today, with more locos, rolling stock, accessories and a new track system following. Also, in a similar way, there was cottage industry support in terms of products by the likes of Gem and K's to name but two and a slightly bigger name Kitmaster (who produced Mk1 coach kits and a Royal Scot kit too). I have a fair collection of TT3 and have a fair level of enthusiasm for it, appreciating it for what it was. I was even a member of the 3MM Scale Association for a time, so have a reasonable understanding of the history too. It is an inalienable fact that no other mainstream manufacturer joined Tri-Ang on their journey then, and I know there has been much debate on this forum already about the cause of the demise of TT3 as a mainstream scale, with much being made of the introduction of the more compact N (and British N's infancy) as a contributory factor, which I know is to an extent disputed but I personally believe was key along with the untimely death of a key Tri-Ang staff member.  I have one of the Pat Hammond books that tracks the rise and fall of TT3, and how sales from a peak in the late 1950s dropped to about 1/6 of that value by the early 60s. 

 

It could well be that a different dynamic exists today and TT120 will not suffer the same peak and then demise as TT3, but the loss of the "champion" and driving force (SK leaving) at a critical time for it is a worrying comparison for me personally.

 

However, I think the pivotal point is not about how much product Hornby will introduce and how quickly, it will be if (and I say if not when) another manufacturer dips a larger toe in the water beyond a single open wagon, and I do hope that will happen. I also think an association akin to the N Gauge society or 3MMSA will help by growing a critical mass of members and with that the confidence to talk to manufacturers directly (Think N Gauge society Hunslet, Kits and rolling stock).

 

It is after all still early days just yet...

 

Roy

 

[Hobby]

16 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

It is after all still early days just yet...

 

I could reply to yours in a similarly long winded way, but there's no need as you said it all in that one sentence. 

 

We shall see.

[frobisher]

15 hours ago, moawkwrd said:

Heljan gave up on TT like a child who didn’t get its own way. The reality is they aren’t a manufacturer who can support a new scale like Hornby could. They could’ve released their models already and beaten H by a few years… like what happens in other scales all the time.

 

That's somewhat unfair.  Heljan's release of intensions was based on the knowledge a big player was entering the UK scene in the scale.  What they didn't expect was every model announced suddenly being in Hornby's own intensions at range launch, and Hornby's announced price points being quite a bit lower than theirs.  Of course, had they known how delayed Hornby would have become with their 31 they should have continued and funded with the results of the next week's lottery numbers that they'd have already had...

[Hobby]

25 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

That's somewhat unfair.  Heljan's release of intensions was based on the knowledge a big player was entering the UK scene in the scale.  What they didn't expect was every model announced suddenly being in Hornby's own intensions at range launch, and Hornby's announced price points being quite a bit lower than theirs.  Of course, had they known how delayed Hornby would have become with their 31 they should have continued and funded with the results of the next week's lottery numbers that they'd have already had...

 

What other stuff had they announced? I only heard of the 31, a link would be helpful. 

[toby_tl10]

3 hours ago, JohnR said:

A list of the locos launched by Triang:

 

1957

Jinty 0-6-0

GWR Castle 4-6-0

 

1959

Original Merchant Navy 4-6-2

Class 08 0-6-0

Class 31

 

1960

Britannia 4-6-2

 

1961

GWR Prairie 2-6-2

 

1963

Class 104 DMU

 

 

So 8 locos released over 5-6 years. 

I can't overstate how much I love this comparison. I'm sure Tri-ang was trying to break into a market with at least 3 well-established scales, each with hundreds (if not thousands) of products, in the 50s and 60s.

 

Not saying Hornby is wrong in launching TT120, but they have created a somewhat difficult task for themselves. Its success in the medium/long term will require some degree of scale loyalty (and perhaps brand loyalty too). No one really wants Hornby to fail. If Hornby TT fails, Hornby OO will certainly be impacted and that's not gonna be good for the hobby. Not to mention the impact it will have on modellers/families who have put their money in TT products.

 

Same for anyone who is launching a new scale tomorrow/in the future, the later you do it, the harder it gets due to the existing scales in the market.

[Steamport Southport]

49 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

That's somewhat unfair.  Heljan's release of intensions was based on the knowledge a big player was entering the UK scene in the scale.  What they didn't expect was every model announced suddenly being in Hornby's own intensions at range launch, and Hornby's announced price points being quite a bit lower than theirs.  Of course, had they known how delayed Hornby would have become with their 31 they should have continued and funded with the results of the next week's lottery numbers that they'd have already had...

 

All Heljan showed was a CAD from their O Gauge Class 31....

 

ISTR it even still had screw couplings on it!

 

 

 

Jason

[moawkwrd]

55 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

That's somewhat unfair.  Heljan's release of intensions was based on the knowledge a big player was entering the UK scene in the scale.  What they didn't expect was every model announced suddenly being in Hornby's own intensions at range launch, and Hornby's announced price points being quite a bit lower than theirs.  Of course, had they known how delayed Hornby would have become with their 31 they should have continued and funded with the results of the next week's lottery numbers that they'd have already had...

Poppycock. Hornbys 31 was always in the later phases as a potential model. It wasn’t announced and then delayed. It’s still unconfirmed to this date. There was certainly no price point announced.

 

There was nothing stopping Heljan from continuing with their plan.

Edited April 3 by moawkwrd

[Jeff Smith]

Several points here.  The rate of TT3 model introduction has been raised but not the volumes - I suspect at any point since introduction there has probably been more TT120 sold than TT3.

 

In TT3, a Jinty and Castle are hardly complementary, and there was a two year wait for further additions.

 

TT3 was I think unique worldwide although 12mm track was probably available elsewhere.  TT120 is an established scale elsewhere and a Hornby owned company (Arnold) was already in production.

 

Peco is an astute company and whether by coincidence or cooperation has entered the field - whilst the track obviously has international sales potential the GWR building kits do not (I have built the signal box, it is excellent!).  Nor do the open wagons.

 

The J50 is a reasonably logical addition, at least in region with initial ER offerings.  A Jinty or Pannier would have been nice but a bit out of sequence.  The HST set in BR livery is interesting as last seen in the late eighties so definitely for those old enough to remember that livery.....

[e30ftw]

The question is do you go in and represent an era region allowing some to start or do you do a scatter gun approach? Im not a TT modeler so some might have been announced already

 

No brainer future releases

 

LMS/BR LM

3f jinty-Can it share the j50 chassis?

Black 5 -Announced?

8f

mogul or 0-6-0 - ideal if you could share chassis with other models with similar wheel base even if wheels need to be unique

 

GWR BR WR

Castle

King

little tank engine - Panier

mogul or 0-6-0 - ideal if you could share chassis with other models with similar wheel base even if wheels need to be unique

 

SR

Bulied pacific

Re Built Bulied

A popular tank engine N2?

Slam door EMU - Br green through to privatization, lots of people would have taken one in london/the south at some point in their life

 

BR

Britannia

9F would be very impressive in TT

(5 or 4 MT) Not sure about sale figures for these

 

BR Diesel

 20

37- Anounced

47-Anounced?

40

60- To complement 66 as well as other BR Diesels, lots of livery's plus they have one in the 1:1 colection

 

DMU

Hard sell compared to more interesting Locomotives, if anything class 101 large geographic spread and a fair few livery's

 

Coaches

mk2s

teak LNER

BR surburban or LMS equivalent that could be used in BR era as well

GWR coach to go with castle or tank engine

 

Wagons

16t mineral

BR vacuum brake short wheel base van

HAA Coal wagon

5 and 7 plank generic steam age freight wagon

Brake down Crane

VGA wagon for late BR and modern use

 

 

Wild Cards

 

Union Pacific Big Boy- A lot of people would buy for the novelty in UK and Europe, largest steam loco in the world

 

Union Pacific Centennial - Probably less popular than a BIG Boy but the largest Diesel loco in the world

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeff Smith]

23 minutes ago, e30ftw said:

9F would be very impressive in TT

Arnold already has a 2-10-0 so shouldn't be too difficult......

 

[Hobby]

38 minutes ago, e30ftw said:

LMS/BR LM

3f jinty-Can it share the j50 chassis? Not really.

Black 5 -Announced? Yes though after phase 4

8f Not announced

mogul or 0-6-0 - ideal if you could share chassis with other models with similar wheel base even if wheels need to be unique

 

GWR BR WR

Castle Phase 3/4

King Nothing

little tank engine - Panier After phase 3/4 but I suspect it'll be sooner

mogul or 0-6-0 - ideal if you could share chassis with other models with similar wheel base even if wheels need to be unique

 

SR

Bulied pacific Nothing but there's already a 3d print

Re Built Bulied Nothing

A popular tank engine N2? As above

Slam door EMU - Br green through to privatization, lots of people would have taken one in london/the south at some point in their life I doubt it would be a big seller so well donw the line - look for a 3d print though

 

BR

Britannia Announced after phase 3/4

9F would be very impressive in TT Phase 3/4

(5 or 4 MT) Not sure about sale figures for these Nothing

 

BR Diesel

 20 Nothing

37- Anounced Yes, on 2nd April 12/18 months

47-Anounced? Catalogue - after phase 3/4

40 Nothing

60- To complement 66 as well as other BR Diesels, lots of livery's plus they have one in the 1:1 colection Catalogue after phase 3/4

 

DMU other than some modern stuff  an 800 - nothing

Hard sell compared to more interesting Locomotives, if anything class 101 large geographic spread and a fair few livery's

 

Coaches

mk2s in the catalogue so should be next 12/18m

teak LNER phase 3/4 so probably 18/24m

BR surburban or LMS equivalent that could be used in BR era as well nothing

GWR coach to go with castle or tank engine catalogue pahse 3/4

 

Wagons - not sure, but Peco might and there's 3d prints

16t mineral

BR vacuum brake short wheel base van

HAA Coal wagon

5 and 7 plank generic steam age freight wagon

Brake down Crane

VGA wagon for late BR and modern use

 

 

Wild Cards - I doubt there's a cat in hells chance, and I suspect the market wouldn't warrant it, or the risk which would be large. (I'd rather they just stuck with British stuff as well).

 

Union Pacific Big Boy- A lot of people would buy for the novelty in UK and Europe, largest steam loco in the world

 

Union Pacific Centennial - Probably less popular than a BIG Boy but the largest Diesel loco in the world

 

The above based on the original catalogue and things we've seen since, timescales purely guesswork!!

Edited April 3 by Hobby

[Legend]

I think we would all want items released a little quicker. To get that critical mass into the scale . As I’ve said before I’m waiting for the 37 and 47to go with HST and 08 .  But I think 18 months in you have to give credit to Hornby . They have succeeded in introducing 4 new locos , with the HST being the 4th with the 50 one month away (5th)and the Duchess (6th) following behind .  To me one of the most successful launches was Mainline railways in 1976 , but even there the two steam locos were available only 1 year in (J72 and 4MT ) . It took until Jan 78 , so 22 months from launch to get the 45 .So I think Hornby are not doing too badly . Of course this is a new gauge and not a new range in an existing gauge like Mainline was . 

Edited April 3 by Legend

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, moawkwrd said:

Poppycock. Hornbys 31 was always in the later phases as a potential model. It wasn’t announced and then delayed. It’s still unconfirmed to this date. There was certainly no price point announced.

 

There was nothing stopping Heljan from continuing with their plan.

 

Or obligating them to do so. 

 

There is absolutely no potential down-side for other producers in sitting on the fence for the next 3-5 years. If TT:120 thrives, they can jump onto a still-spacious bandwagon risk-free; if it fails they see a major rival in OO weakened. Why would you not? 

 

The alternative is getting into bed with an aggressive incumbent who doesn't want you there, just for a chance of sharing the losses should the thing not work out.  Why would you?

 

John

Edited April 3 by Dunsignalling

[D9020 Nimbus]

On 02/04/2024 at 16:58, andrewshimmin said:

As to people talking about branch passenger trains - from what I've seen in old photos, these were nearly always pre grouping carriages right until the end of steam...

Pre-nationalisation, not pre-grouping, I think — pre-grouping carriages had largely gone before the end of steam. In the Scottish Highlands, Thompson non-corridor coaches were used on many branches. Even on a light railway like Dornoch, LMS era non corridor coaches of the type modelled by Hornby and even Stanier corridor coaches appeared.

 

In the West Country the B-sets were generally post grouping, and several branches used Hawksworth auto trailers. Welsh branch lines often used Collett and Hawksworth stock.

 

In the early 1950s there was still pre-grouping stock in existence.

[D9020 Nimbus]

3 hours ago, moawkwrd said:

Poppycock. Hornbys 31 was always in the later phases as a potential model. It wasn’t announced and then delayed. It’s still unconfirmed to this date. There was certainly no price point announced.

 

There was nothing stopping Heljan from continuing with their plan.

I think it has effectively been confirmed insofar as the product numbers and the guises to be produced have been given — more than say the 57xx or J94. Obviously we don't know when, but these days we only know when if the ship carrying the models is in port…

 

Hornby had an existing CAD to use as a basis, and they can move quickly to squash competition — see Terrier. It would have been folly to continue. There seemed to be co-ordination between Peco, Heljan and Gaugemaster; I wonder if Peco had concluded that Hornby were never going to introduce TT120, and had turned to Heljan to produce locos much as happened with the L&B range in 009.

[andrewshimmin]

I think if someone thinking about getting into railway modelling came on here and read some of the carping and vituperation they might just give up and not bother.

 

Some people's comments give the impression that they think anyone doing anything short of a faultless recreation of 3:24pm on 7th June 1963 at a particular location is a loser and a traitor...

[natterjack]

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I wonder if Peco had concluded that Hornby were never going to introduce TT120, and had turned to Heljan to produce locos much as happened with the L&B range in 009.

Then what would still be holding back this hypothetical  'consortium' from doing something with their existing cad material of alternative subjects when Hornby sales have clearly demonstrated a healthy market  appetite for UK TT120?

[Dunsignalling]

57 minutes ago, natterjack said:

Then what would still be holding back this hypothetical  'consortium' from doing something with their existing cad material of alternative subjects when Hornby sales have clearly demonstrated a healthy market  appetite for UK TT120?

Peco still seem committed, but their output complements r-t-r provision in TT:120 just as it does in other scales. Also, track and wagons aside, many of their products are made using technology that can be shot up or down in size, spreading any risk, and requiring little-or-no scale-related capital investment. 

 

Hornby probably see the others more as as potential competitors and maybe they have decided it's just not worth the risk getting into a market where only Hornby actually knows the numbers..

 

Yes, Hornby is selling out most of the TT:120 items it produces, but that presents a problem for anyone else in judging how much demand exists over and above Hornby's batch sizes which, quite reasonably, they keep to themselves. 

 

Hornby had its own reasons for launching a new scale, which have been covered many times in this and other threads. Those reasons may not be valid for other businesses, especially if they are fully employed in satisfying other "healthy market appetites" that they understand better. 

 

Unlike Hornby, world domination is not in their business plans 😉 , just making a decent living within the industry, using resources they already have.  

 

It's strongly arguable that many of Hornby's problems, over the years, have stemmed from being too big a fish for the size of the pool. 

 

John

Edited April 3 by Dunsignalling

[natterjack]

51 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Yes, Hornby is selling out most of the TT:120 items it produces, but that presents a problem for anyone else in judging how much demand exists over and above Hornby's batch sizes which, quite reasonably, they keep to themselves. 

I suspect quite a few customers have, like me, received boxed items marked with Hornby warehouse  batch details. These figures are not really that secret.

Edited April 3 by natterjack

[Les1952]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Or obligating them to do so. 

 

There is absolutely no potential down-side for other producers in sitting on the fence for the next 3-5 years. If TT:120 thrives, they can jump onto a still-spacious bandwagon risk-free; if it fails they see a major rival in OO weakened. Why would you not? 

 

The alternative is getting into bed with an aggressive incumbent who doesn't want you there, just for a chance of sharing the losses should the thing not work out.  Why would you?

 

John

 

that is the history of TT:120 on the continent, where the aggressive incumbent is Tillig......

 

Les

[J-Lewis]

15 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

that is the history of TT:120 on the continent, where the aggressive incumbent is Tillig......

 

Les

A continental manufacturer like MTB feel like a more likely candidate for another entrant to the UK market.  They’ve already got some suitable  bogies and mechanicals in their European diesels.  I’d wager something like a Class 20 or another UK loco that also made an appearance in Europe would be a potential prototype.

[britishcolumbian]

21 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

that is the history of TT:120 on the continent, where the aggressive incumbent is Tillig......

 

Les

Exactly. Tillig even managed to coerce Roco - a giant of the industry - to give up on the scale for a while. It wasn't until the duo of Kuehn and Piko came on scene very determined to break Tillig's effective monopoly, that the situation finally changed.

 

But Tillig do still see TT as their scale, so I still think that sooner or later we will see them jumping into the British pool.

[britishcolumbian]

4 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

A continental manufacturer like MTB feel like a more likely candidate for another entrant to the UK market.  They’ve already got some suitable  bogies and mechanicals in their European diesels.  I’d wager something like a Class 20 or another UK loco that also made an appearance in Europe would be a potential prototype.

I've been saying this re MTB for a while. They're the company that seems to be most willing to tackle new markets - they were the first to produce a Romanian locomotive, now more recently have released a locomotive 99% exclusive to Hungary (M41, there were maybe a dozen exported to Greece, hardly a model railway hotbed), and of course they produced the first RTR locomotives of North American outline in TT in over 50 years. With MTB's focus on central Europe - Czechia, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary - the British market is a natural to get into on the side, given there are several British locomotive classes operating in those countries with private/open-access railway companies. I wouldn't in the least be surprised if the first British outline electric locomotive in TT will come from MTB.

[Dunsignalling]

5 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Exactly. Tillig even managed to coerce Roco - a giant of the industry - to give up on the scale for a while. It wasn't until the duo of Kuehn and Piko came on scene very determined to break Tillig's effective monopoly, that the situation finally changed.

 

But Tillig do still see TT as their scale, so I still think that sooner or later we will see them jumping into the British pool.

 

1 minute ago, britishcolumbian said:

I've been saying this re MTB for a while. They're the company that seems to be most willing to tackle new markets - they were the first to produce a Romanian locomotive, now more recently have released a locomotive 99% exclusive to Hungary (M41, there were maybe a dozen exported to Greece, hardly a model railway hotbed), and of course they produced the first RTR locomotives of North American outline in TT in over 50 years. With MTB's focus on central Europe - Czechia, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary - the British market is a natural to get into on the side, given there are several British locomotive classes operating in those countries with private/open-access railway companies. I wouldn't in the least be surprised if the first British outline electric locomotive in TT will come from MTB.

I think both scenarios are plausible, along with (perhaps) one or two UK N or OO brands making tentative entries, but with one proviso:

 

"Sooner" depends on it being doable within existing capacity. I really can't see anyone throwing new capital at UK-outline TT:120 unless/until Hornby's venture has become firmly established with a selection of around 20 locos supported by coach ranges for each of the big four.

 

So long as that came to pass, I'd define "later" as 2027-onwards.  

 

John

 

[britishcolumbian]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

I think both scenarios are plausible, along with (perhaps) one or two UK N or OO brands making tentative entries, but with one proviso:

 

"Sooner" depends on it being doable within existing capacity. I really can't see anyone throwing new capital at UK-outline TT:120 unless/until Hornby's venture has become firmly established with a selection of around 20 locos supported by coach ranges for each of the big four.

 

So long as that came to pass, I'd define "later" as 2027-onwards.  

 

John

 

I more or less agree with you, though may be sooner than 2027, if the scenario involves a British type in use on the Continent, since there's a market for the model to begin with; the Hungarian market, for example, is big enough to produce for, but small enough that when something is produced, it sells out fairly quickly, as many people will buy something just for being Hungarian. Something that's UK only? Yeah, definitely on the later side, than the sooner.