Hornby - Warley Model Railway Exhibition Special announcement 26.11.22

[Steamport Southport]

41 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

According to somebody who spoke to SK then the A3 sets are planned to dock on the 14th December, so unlikely to be available before Xmas, the A4 set and everything else is after Xmas. So they won't be available to buy for the crucial run up to Xmas. The time between announcement to delivery is irrelevant, they can announce at any time in the development cycle.

 

 

These are already ordered, so they are already bought. So that point is moot. They just need someone to physically put them down as being despatched and take the money from the purchasers account.

 

Gives them ten days to unload and despatch them. They'll be using a third party I assume and a courier.

 

I don't see how it's irrelevant. Some of us have waited the best part of a decade for some models. Two months and some are throwing their toys out of the pram as they might be a bit late?

 

 

Jason

[spamcan61]

Personally I'm not fussed about my toy trains turning up a bit late, it's more concern about Hornby's cashflow as they'll miss the pre Xmas impulse buys they'd hope to result from their expensive advertising campaign.

[Gilbert]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

(I nearly typed "in the shops" there...

oops...

[nightstar.train]

57 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I don't see how it's irrelevant. Some of us have waited the best part of a decade for some models. Two months and some are throwing their toys out of the pram as they might be a bit late?

 

I think the crucial point is that Hornby are trying to use TT120 to expand into new markets and attract new modelers. Apparently there's a big advertising push for TT120 too. But if people see an advert for TT120 and think "that'd be a good present for husband/kid/grandkid" and then go on the website and see it won't arrive until after Christmas they won't buy. And they're unlikely to come back and buy in the new year. By not having the sets available for Christmas Hornby are massively shooting themselves in the foot. People who are already in the hobby will be happy to wait, but this THE main chance to grab new entrants, and they're missing it. 

[Torbay Express]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

So perhaps 10-20% of what they have so far put into TT:120 if spread over 5 years. Quite possibly by now, at least partially, into products beyond the initial launch range, though.

 

Of course, we can't quantify that beyond educated guesswork, but if Bachmann spent a million plus developing just one OO loco, their new Class 47, it's going to be a significant number.

 

Never like it when spurious figures like that are quoted.  A/S said they had 8 locos (5 diesel 3 steam) on the way for 2 million, so why does a parent company charge 1 million for one?  Unless it's because they can? 

[jamieb]

For all these people moaning about Hornby only selling online and supporting their local modelshops,would anyone care to tell me WHERE in Shropshire (one of the largest counties in England) would I (or these imaginary grandparents for that matter looking to buy model railways for the kids) actually find somewhere to buy model railways,because as far as I know,there hasn't been a specialist model shop in the county for absolutely years 

[Dunsignalling]

34 minutes ago, Torbay Express said:

Never like it when spurious figures like that are quoted.  A/S said they had 8 locos (5 diesel 3 steam) on the way for 2 million, so why does a parent company charge 1 million for one?  Unless it's because they can? 

The Bachmann 47 looks to be rather more than just one loco, though, they claim to have tooled it to produce almost all the possible variations. 512 locos that, by the time bulk withdrawals commenced, almost certainly included no two that were exactly the same.

 

Whatever the truth of that, it's generally accepted that getting a large express loco in OO to the production stage costs circa 250k and whilst Hornby will save a bit by only doing things they've previously made in OO, they'll be lucky to get five out for a million in TT rather than four.

 

Maybe a million and a half for the locos and as much again to cover everything else, but only if they are being very canny about it?  And that's just phases 1-4. My gut feeling is they'll have done well not to top 4 million all told, plus what's going into phases 5-9 right now.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[spamcan61]

4 minutes ago, jamieb said:

For all these people moaning about Hornby only selling online and supporting their local modelshops,would anyone care to tell me WHERE in Shropshire (one of the largest counties in England) would I (or these imaginary grandparents for that matter looking to buy model railways for the kids) actually find somewhere to buy model railways,because as far as I know,there hasn't been a specialist model shop in the county for absolutely years 

I don't support my local shop, but I do support model shops (KMRC, TMC, Collets, Derails) online as I don't want to end up in a situation where the manufacturer has total control over the price I pay.

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I'm probably a lot older than many of Hornby's marketing team so the word 'experience' may mean something different to them.

 

As there is a shortage of microcontrollers I'd guess at something mechanical such as synchronized smells or something software such as some sort of augmented feedback to a mobile phone. A long shot is mini cameras in locos.

[frobisher]

4 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Whatever the truth of that, it's generally accepted that getting a large express loco in OO to the production stage costs circa 250k and whilst Hornby will save a bit by only doing things they've previously made in OO, they'll be lucky to get five out for a million in TT rather than four.

 

Maybe a million and a half for the locos and about the same to cover everything else, but only if they are being very canny about it? 

 

From everything we've seen of the TT CAD and prototypes, Hornby are very much going down the "Design Clever" route which may well reduce the tooling complexity and hence cost, plus reducing the number of parts as well.  They've also clearly reused the Corgi A4 body mouldings at the very least, but the immense commonality between the A1/3 and A4 will also help to reduce costs.

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

From everything we've seen of the TT CAD and prototypes, Hornby are very much going down the "Design Clever" route which may well reduce the tooling complexity and hence cost, plus reducing the number of parts as well.  They've also clearly reused the Corgi A4 body mouldings at the very least, but the immense commonality between the A1/3 and A4 will also help to reduce costs.

Which kinda contradicts SK's recent pronouncement about TT:120 locos reflecting "main range" values.

 

It'll be fascinating to see what the early adopters actually get for their money.

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[spamcan61]

From what we've seen looks like Hornby are producing finely detailed body mouldings (look at the 08 for example) but reducing the number of hand fitted parts, which makes sense, and is somewhat 'design clever', but I never had a problem with that anyway.

[AY Mod]

19 minutes ago, jamieb said:

know,there hasn't been a specialist model shop in the county for absolutely years

 

It depends how you define 'specialist' but there is http://www.salopianmodels.com/ Telford is a gap though but many from there go to Topp Trains in Stafford.

[frobisher]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Which kinda contradicts SK's recent pronouncement about TT:120 locos reflecting "main range" values.

 

Not really, plenty of "Design Clever" in the main range, plus the odd bit of Airfix and Lima tooling too.  Thing if it is, the 08 in TT probably looks finer than the Farish N gauge one because of the moulded detail where Farish used separate hand rails.

[Dunsignalling]

11 minutes ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

I'm probably a lot older than many of Hornby's marketing team so the word 'experience' may mean something different to them.

 

As there is a shortage of microcontrollers I'd guess at something mechanical such as synchronized smells or something software such as some sort of augmented feedback to a mobile phone. A long shot is mini cameras in locos.

 

Personally, I reckon a driver's-eye-view fed to one's smartphone is the thing most likely to create a real stir and sell yet another FS and Mallard to those who have a complete set of the earlier versions. 

[jamieb]

7 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

It depends how you define 'specialist' but there is http://www.salopianmodels.com/ Telford is a gap though but many from there go to Topp Trains in Stafford.

I know of Topps Trains, Salopian Models is new to me, I used to drive to Modellers Mecca before it shut,but my point is that unless model shops are within easy local distance,then either you buy online or the hobby passes you by.

It's a case of out of sight,out of mind unfortunately 

[nightstar.train]

30 minutes ago, jamieb said:

For all these people moaning about Hornby only selling online and supporting their local modelshops,would anyone care to tell me WHERE in Shropshire (one of the largest counties in England) would I (or these imaginary grandparents for that matter looking to buy model railways for the kids) actually find somewhere to buy model railways,because as far as I know,there hasn't been a specialist model shop in the county for absolutely years 

 

I'm in a similar position, there's nowhere in Glasgow now. Pastimes was the last one and sold a good range of new models and secondhand. But the owner retired and now there's nowhere. Have to go to Linlithgow or Edinburgh for a train shop. 

[Haymarket47]

1 hour ago, frobisher said:

 

From everything we've seen of the TT CAD and prototypes, Hornby are very much going down the "Design Clever" route which may well reduce the tooling complexity and hence cost, plus reducing the number of parts as well.  They've also clearly reused the Corgi A4 body mouldings at the very least, but the immense commonality between the A1/3 and A4 will also help to reduce costs.

 But the video they put out in YouTube clearly states they are going for high fidelity so not sure where you get this info from.  

[ian]

1 hour ago, jamieb said:

For all these people moaning about Hornby only selling online and supporting their local modelshops,would anyone care to tell me WHERE in Shropshire (one of the largest counties in England) would I (or these imaginary grandparents for that matter looking to buy model railways for the kids) actually find somewhere to buy model railways,because as far as I know,there hasn't been a specialist model shop in the county for absolutely years 

@jamiebYou must have missed out when I was running Modelscape in Roddington but, fear not, Toby at Salopian Models in Shrewsbury http://www.salopianmodels.com/ will be happy to see you.

Edited November 24, 2022 by ian

[Nova Scotian]

3 hours ago, jamieb said:

For all these people moaning about Hornby only selling online and supporting their local modelshops,would anyone care to tell me WHERE in Shropshire (one of the largest counties in England) would I (or these imaginary grandparents for that matter looking to buy model railways for the kids) actually find somewhere to buy model railways,because as far as I know,there hasn't been a specialist model shop in the county for absolutely years 

I'll bite.

You may place your pre-order through Hattons, Rails of Sheffield, Kernow, TMC, Derails, Gaugemaster, or any of the myriad of other ones. This might be because they show capacity for pre-orders, they are doing a discount when the manufacturer is not online, or that you just like to support a shop from good experience beforehand.

 

Many stores aren't just a physical location, they are supported significantly by their online sales, and shipping in the UK is cheap.

 

These stores take a risk by pre-ordering stock that may not sell (or may sell out - and they've left money on the table by discounting when it would have sold at full price) that makes the case for a manufacturer to produce a run. They stock other goods you need, and if you give them a call they'll give you advice.

 

I think the "omni-channel" approach was working mostly well for the consumer - you can buy online direct, buy from your modelshop direct, or go in in person. However, any accountant will tell you you're giving up margin (for both sides) in this model, which is particularly important if your demand outstrips supply to the end consumer. So, retailers start commissioning runs, and it means they can also get small runs of niche products done the manufacturer won't. The manufacturer looks to maximize margins on popular product.

 

The problem that I have with this is when the manufacturer appears, on multiple occasions, to have  reneged on allocations - with the threat of no future allocations if a fuss is made (various threads on this forum allege this). Essentially they have destroyed good faith, chasing extra margins, despite pissing off both the retailer and the original consumer ordering (hoping there are tens-to-hundreds of consumers that want the in-demand product to make up for every one you upset).

 

So, coming back to the announcement - as an "experience" it would be fantastic to see them reengage with the retailers. Working with their retailers to enhance displays, stock, inventory, and ensuring that allocations are strong and kept to. Online, direct selling remains part of the picture, but not the whole story. The work that Rails and others have done to expand their stores, run sessions, make it more interactive - it's making it more about the hobby again, about crafting - rather than just buying boxes. So much more to modelling than just buying a loco - the scenery, electronics, accessories - and of course speaking to someone who knows what wagons would have run in that era with that loco. 

 

When I hear experience I hope for a partnership where hobby sales can increase across the board because we all want to model more because our retailers are stronger from the partnership.

 

I expect to be disappointed.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Nova Scotian

[frobisher]

1 hour ago, Haymarket47 said:

 But the video they put out in YouTube clearly states they are going for high fidelity so not sure where you get this info from.  

 

The photos of the various pre-production samples pretty much show this.  Moulded detail isn't at odds with high fidelity if done right.

[wairoa]

8 hours ago, tractionman said:

 

that's just popped up on my news feed

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/business-news/Hornby-sees-losses-widen-but-reassures-over-stock-for-festive-season-b1042273.html

 

not good news at all.

Not good. As much as I criticize Hornby I do want them to succeed. For the most part I am rather fond of their products.

[Hroth]

Only one more sleep until the Special Announcement!!!

 

I hope it's going to be interesting... 🤪

 

[spamcan61]

14 hours ago, tractionman said:

 

that's just popped up on my news feed

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/business-news/Hornby-sees-losses-widen-but-reassures-over-stock-for-festive-season-b1042273.html

 

not good news at all.

Maybe that's what prompted the appointment of the new  axeman 'Turnaround CEO' as discussed here:-

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, wairoa said:

Not good. As much as I criticize Hornby I do want them to succeed. For the most part I am rather fond of their products.

Very succinct. I think most of us who have become critical of Hornby in recent years retain a deep-rooted affection for the brand that got us into the hobby (though when I started it was still Tri-ang and the original Hornby Dublo was just starting its inexorable gurgle down the plughole).

 

What Hornby seems unable to grasp is that "competitors" only become a real problem where duplication occurs. Those who make stuff they don't may actually help sell their own products. Good examples are the (original) Bachmann Bulleid coaches, and their Mk1 range that kick-started the trend for quality carriages in r-t-r. Equally, they all make things that I wouldn't buy under any circumstances (in all cases any loco whose number begins with a 6 unless it's 60026).

 

Conversely, I have a weakness for NPCCS and have ordered a number of Accurascale Siphons because Hornby had, over two decades, demonstrated zero inclination to update those previously available from Airfix/Dapol and Lima. That's not Accurascale's fault, it's Hornby's!

 

How many extra Hornby MNs and WCs were sold on the back of having something better than Hornby offered for them to pull? Indeed, would Hornby have gone on to produce their lit Pullmans, "proper" Maunsells (both of which I've bought in very worthwhile quantities) and all that followed had not our willingness to pay more for better been demonstrated? 

 

I actually think that TT:120 is rather a good idea in principle and understand there's an element of "go big or go home" at work for historical reasons. However, it's hard not to see Hornby's big jump into it as a tacit admission that their OO "glory days" are slipping away rather than being inspired to greater excellence in the face of stronger and more diverse competition than they have ever previously faced. 

 

Compete hard, Hornby but try not to sacrifice your dignity in the process.

 

John

Edited November 25, 2022 by Dunsignalling