Rapido OO Gauge GWR 44xx/45xx/4575 Small Prairie

[BVMR21]

I was wondering how the safety valve dome will be done, will it look like other manufacturers whom make it seem plastic or is it more likely to have the shine that the real thing has?

[Andy M]

On 07/12/2022 at 19:42, Miss Prism said:

I have a feeling this was not the only example of this lining style.

 

 

 

This lining style, dropping below the cab shutter and handrail, is an example of the unique variation applied by the Newton Abbot Works painters. Numerous examples occurred to 4575, 5101 and 56xx classes, in both early and late crest.

 

It is a good example of of one of the secondary works striving for a bit of individuality (like Caerphilly and the red reversing lever). Newton had already baulked at the strict Swindon BR(W) painting guidelines earlier in the 1950s, by continuing to paint name and number plates red for at least 2 years after the practice had been officially discontinued. The works also continued to use up its stocks of early crest transfers a good 18-months or more after the late crest had been introduced for widespread use. Good old GWR standardisation at work!

 

Andy.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Andy M

[Miss Prism]

Thanks for that gen, Andy. I've now got enough to do a para on gwr.org. (The post-1948 loco livery page gets a little bit crazier.)

 

[checkrail]

2 hours ago, BVMR21 said:

I was wondering how the safety valve dome will be done, will it look like other manufacturers whom make it seem plastic or is it more likely to have the shine that the real thing has?

Or will it be painted over?  Much more typical I think, especially pre-nationalisation. 

[BVMR21]

1 hour ago, checkrail said:

Or will it be painted over?  Much more typical I think, especially pre-nationalisation. 

Good point as well, just looking at some locos and whatnot as they do have the brass and the paint used by  a few manufacturers is not quite the best shall we say. Think Dapol did quite well with the Large Prairie domes though so maybe something similar could be done?

[Halvarras]

3 hours ago, Andy M said:

 

This lining style, dropping below the cab shutter and handrail, is an example of the unique variation applied by the Newton Abbot Works painters. Numerous examples occurred to 45xx, 4575, 5101 and 56xx classes, in both early and late crest.

 

It is a good example of of one of the secondary works striving for a bit of individuality (like Caerphilly and the red reversing lever). Newton had already baulked at the strict Swindon BR(W) painting guidelines earlier in the 1950s, by continuing to paint name and number plates red for at least 2 years after the practice had been officially discontinued. The works also continued to use up its stocks of early crest transfers a good 18-months or more after the late crest had been introduced for widespread use. Good old GWR standardisation at work!

 

Andy.

 

Many thanks for that Andy - the wonder of RMweb, somebody somewhere always knows! This would certainly explain 4585's almost spotless condition with NA lining and early emblem in mid-1958 - sadly this didn't prevent its withdrawal before the end of the following year 🥴!

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, BVMR21 said:

Good point as well, just looking at some locos and whatnot as they do have the brass and the paint used by  a few manufacturers is not quite the best shall we say. Think Dapol did quite well with the Large Prairie domes though so maybe something similar could be done?

 

The Dapol safety valve bonnets (not domes) on the recent large prairies have that high-reflective Christmas bauble look that has become more common recently. It might look OK when the shine is dulled down by a coat of satin varnish but I haven't tried that yet.

 

In my opinion the people who have absolutely nailed the look of polished brass are Bachmann. They said in a recent video that they have improved their brass paint and the 45xx I got from them this year has the best safety valve bonnet I've yet seen.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Harlequin

[BVMR21]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

In my opinion the people who have absolutely nailed the look of polished brass are Bachmann.

The latest Bachmann Small Prairie release doesn’t look too bad, wouldn’t say it’s personally my favourite but I guess as long as the Rapido model is similar (or slightly better) it should be passable 

[The Johnster]

I would have thought that brass brass safety valve bonnets (and copper copper chimney caps) would be viable at the price level of current ‘full fat’ RTR.  The advantage of this is that, firstly, they would look exactly like brass or copper, and secondly, we would have the option of polishing them up or allowing them to tarnish naturally (or overpainting them).  Or letting them tarnish and then polishing them…

 

In service, these features were usually much less well defined than they are on models, a consequence of a dirty working environment and natural weathering, and difficult to reproduce accurately; I suspect this would be much easier with the correct materials.  

[Halls and Prairies]

On 02/12/2022 at 12:58, The Stationmaster said:

This is a list of the only ones from that number series which lasted long enough to have received lined green livery -

 

4505 possibly,  4507,  4508 possibly if shopped after June 1957,  4519,  4536,  4538 but very unlikely,  4540,  4545 possibly but unlikely,   4546 but unlikely,  4547,   4548 but very unlikely and it wasn't according to photo shortly before withdrawal,  4549,  4550,  4551 possibly,  4552,   4553 possibly,  4554 possibly

 

The word possibly indicates that they lasted long enough but they might not have been shopped in their final tear or two.

 

4552 in line green appears to have been a much photographed engine with pictures in at least two books apart from the book mentioned by GraigW.

Picking up on a few bits here:
 

4545 - fairly sure not, the latest livery I’ve ever seen it in is black and this includes a shot of it dumped at Swindon just before cutting up.

4547 - pretty sure I’ve seen multiple photos of this in lined green, early emblem. Possibly Peter Grey archive online. 

4549 - think I’ve seen shots of this in lined green (with buffer beam numbers in GWR style painted locally). Can’t immediately find a photo but will look as and when. 

 

4552 would appear to be the safest answer, photo in Prairie Papers taken in 1961, lined green late crest, outside pipes but difficult to see the frame style, however an earlier photo of it showed curved and unlikely it would have changed. 
 

Also:

 

I have sight of a photo of 4557 ex works with roundel c 1936. 

5519 was another example of Newton Abbot style lining.

4564 possibly unlined late green. 
5527 (larger tanks) was black, lined, early crest (large size), several photos exist.
 

Also 4546 and 4571 (at least) ran with BRITISH RAILWAYS in GWR style on (I think) a green engine and 4505 and 4526 (at least) had the block style BRITISH RAILWAYS on a black engine. Some 4575 / 55xx also had the block style. 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Halls and Prairies
Additional info

[Miss Prism]

Did 4541-54 first appear (in 1914-15) with unlengthened frames?
 

[JimC]

8 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Did 4541-54 first appear (in 1914-15) with unlengthened frames?

According to RCTS yes. It notes that 4522/25/39 had a neater installation than the others without visible distance pieces. See https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p130586643/h46603FC0#h46603fc0 and either side.

[Miss Prism]

I've put together a page - hope it is useful. Comments, off or onlist, welcome. I've probably missed a few things!

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-small-prairies.html

 

[checkrail]

14 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I've put together a page - hope it is useful.

It sure will be. Many thanks Miss P. - you're a treasure!  Will read through with interest.  What great locos small prairies are.

[brumtb]

15 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I've put together a page - hope it is useful. Comments, off or onlist, welcome. I've probably missed a few things!

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-small-prairies.html

 

Many thanks, that is really useful.

Much appreciated

Tony

[Hal Nail]

On 10/12/2022 at 17:34, Halls and Prairies said:

4552 would appear to be the safest answer, photo in Prairie Papers taken in 1961, lined green late crest, outside pipes but difficult to see the frame style, however an earlier photo of it showed curved and unlikely it would have changed. 

 

 

This St Blazey loco lasted relatively late for an early type so got photod a lot and in many respects was a good example of a "standard" extended frame type with curved footplate, outside steam pipes, late sandboxes, short safety valve, flush plated portholes - but it had a unique cab roof, which I had literally just asked for help with elsewhere!

 

There is always a hitch...

 

On 09/12/2022 at 09:10, Andy M said:

It is a good example of of one of the secondary works striving for a bit of individuality (like Caerphilly and the red reversing lever). Newton had already baulked at the strict Swindon BR(W) painting guidelines earlier in the 1950s, by continuing to paint name and number plates red for at least 2 years after the practice had been officially discontinued. The works also continued to use up its stocks of early crest transfers a good 18-months or more after the late crest had been introduced for widespread use. Good old GWR standardisation at work!

 

 

I model St Blazey locos, which I've always assumed were overhauled at Newton Abbot, and had noticed they seemed to have a very high incidence of fairly rare liveries. 4526 with "British Railways" lettering; 4569 in early unlined green (then later lined but with an unusual large size late totem); 4 or 5 examples (mostly 4575s) in lined green early crest, plus these lining variations etc etc. 

 

[Halls and Prairies]

4547 - found a photo in “Lost lines Western” by Nigel Welbourn. 4547, lined green, large early crest at Bovey. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen shots of it like this on the St Ives branch, but unable to locate right now. 

[Miss Prism]

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p130586643/eeee0056f

 

[Hal Nail]

On 10/12/2022 at 17:34, Halls and Prairies said:

4549 - think I’ve seen shots of this in lined green (with buffer beam numbers in GWR style painted locally). Can’t immediately find a photo but will look as and when. 

Peter Gray, Steam in Cornwall double heading the Riviera mk1 stock. Painted buffer beam number and smokebox plate missing. Hard to tell the livery though.

[Halls and Prairies]

Good news and bad news ….. 

 

4547 - lined green early emblem at St Ives. Transport Treasury - Peter Gray Gallery - Image 1126.

 

4549 - I’ve found a Peter Gray shot but it looks to be early emblem, probably black. So my bad. 

[Halls and Prairies]

9 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

 

This St Blazey loco lasted relatively late for an early type so got photod a lot and in many respects was a good example of a "standard" extended frame type with curved footplate, outside steam pipes, late sandboxes, short safety valve, flush plated portholes - but it had a unique cab roof, which I had literally just asked for help with elsewhere!

 

There is always a hitch...

 

 

I model St Blazey locos, which I've always assumed were overhauled at Newton Abbot, and had noticed they seemed to have a very high incidence of fairly rare liveries. 4526 with "British Railways" lettering; 4569 in early unlined green (then later lined but with an unusual large size late totem); 4 or 5 examples (mostly 4575s) in lined green early crest, plus these lining variations etc etc. 

 

Also 4505, 5519 and almost certainly 4215 in same BRITISH RAILWAYS Gill Sans style, 4298 in BRITISH RAILWAYS GWR style, along with 4946 like that based at Penzance which would have at the very least passed through Par. [4947 also of Penzance was major overhauled days after 4946 in 1948 but it seems that photos of this loco in that period are non-existent, presumably because they stayed in Cornwall and certainly west of Newton Abbot. So I’ve no idea if it was painted the same, but it’s a reasonable likelihood. Anybody?].
 

And slightly later as you say 4585 and 5519 at least in lined green early emblem. 
 

A very high incidence of rare liveries for a fairly small shed at the far reaches of the network!

Edited December 12, 2022 by Halls and Prairies
Additional info

[Halvarras]

2 hours ago, Halls and Prairies said:

 

And slightly later as you say 4585 and 5519 at least in lined green early emblem. 

 

Another one - 'Steam in Devon', Peter Gray, page.......er, not numbered 🤔! - 5536 on the Teign Valley line, 1 March 1958.

[BVMR21]

On 09/12/2022 at 21:24, The Johnster said:

I would have thought that brass brass safety valve bonnets (and copper copper chimney caps) would be viable at the price level of current ‘full fat’ RTR.  

That would seem to be the best option, and if it were to be done it would certainly add to the perceived value of the model, alongside just looking better overall, think most manufacturers have done the Copper Chimney Caps made from Copper but I don’t think any have done Brass Bonnets made from Brass so could be an interesting thing to add to RTR models if it is a first.

[Miss Prism]

The safety valve bonnet is difficult to turn in metal because of the boiler slope. It also has to be slotted for the top feed. Fiddly and very expensive.

 

[rprodgers]

5 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

The safety valve bonnet is difficult to turn in metal because of the boiler slope. It also has to be slotted for the top feed. Fiddly and very expensive.

 

Having a brass polished safety valve cover for much of a 44xx /45xx life would surely be an anachronism?
 

Maybe early GWR or for some BR locos but I was led to believe the official policy was for them was to be painted.

 

I was impressed by the finish Dapol applied to the safety valve cover on their 1920s O gauge 45xx 4549 which I don’t think is metal.