Rapido OO Gauge GWR 44xx/45xx/4575 Small Prairie

[Corbs]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I intend to model 4404, with outside steam pipes and early BR ‘BRITISH RAILWAYS’ Egyptian Serif livery; not sure what liveries Rap will produce but it would be nice if they did this one!

 

Hi @The Johnster - My reference photos of 4404 in this era with the BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering show it as having inside steam pipes, but the smokebox has previously been fitted with outside pipes, the holes being covered by a blanking plate. Circa 1951 on the caption.

 

For a small class they have been photographed in quite a few locations other than the 'main' ones, including Birmingham Snow Hill, Tondu, Bristol Temple Meads, Totnes, Newton Abbott, Laira (last three presumably related to Princetown and Porthcawl allocations), Cardiff Canton, Torquay, Wellington, Plymouth and Tavistock, so hopefully a little geographical spread there.

[The Johnster]

So do I! 

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I like the idea of tank engines being compulsory.

 

Me too!

[The Johnster]

54 minutes ago, Corbs said:

 

Hi @The Johnster - My reference photos of 4404 in this era with the BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering show it as having inside steam pipes, but the smokebox has previously been fitted with outside pipes, the holes being covered by a blanking plate. Circa 1951 on the caption.

 

For a small class they have been photographed in quite a few locations other than the 'main' ones, including Birmingham Snow Hill, Tondu, Bristol Temple Meads, Totnes, Newton Abbott, Laira (last three presumably related to Princetown and Porthcawl allocations), Cardiff Canton, Torquay, Wellington, Plymouth and Tavistock, so hopefully a little geographical spread there.

Yup, you’re quite right, my error.  Photo 4404 p135 of John Hodge & Stuart Davies’ Tondu Valleys book, inside steampipes, 29 August 1948, presumably unlined green.  

 

[Halvarras]

The 'Great Western Railway Journal' whose front cover image I posted on the B Set thread Sunday evening has an article on the St Ives branch with photos of 4409 at the terminus in 1913 (numberplate centre of the tank side) and 4403 at St Erth, 9th August 1923* (numberplate on the bunker side) - livery in both cases uncertain. The caption for the latter states that 4403 was sharing branch line work with 4408.

 

The article says that the first to be shedded at St Ives was 3103 in 1906, later renumbered 4403 - it arrived in February that year from Wolverhampton Works and replaced the resident '850' 0-6-0ST, No 1907. It goes on to say that "Since 1924 the class had been concentrated at West Country sheds between Newton Abbot and Penzance; however, internal transfers within the Newton Abbot Division resulted in the temporary loss of 44XXs to St Ives shed (and Helston too)."

The first two 45XXs, 4509/12, arrived from Newton Abbot in 1931, and initially worked alongside the '44s', but the latter "were gradually transferred to sheds in South Wales (to renew a long-standing association) and Shropshire (the Much Wenlock line)......However, Penzance retained one 44XX until 1942, which no doubt could have been seen at St Ives from time to time". Which one stayed behind is not identified.

 

Above the photo of 4403 at St Erth is a fascinating view of the station taken in May 1935 which shows a large china clay dry with its tall chimney just beyond the railway site - the caption says it "....belonged to the Porthia China Clay Co. but the clay industry never really got established In West Cornwall." I wish it had, I could have watched pairs of Class 22s and Warships hauling clay trains through Truro instead of having to travel to St Austell and Par to see them!

 

In case this is of any interest at all......🙂

 

* Coincidentally I passed through here exactly 80 years to the day later behind D1015 'Western Champion' - the first Class 52 to Penzance in 26 and a half years!

[DCB]

On 27/11/2022 at 22:36, Miss Prism said:

 

Whoops!!

That's a 45xx coupled wheelbase (5'6" + 6').

A 44xx needs a 6' + 5'6" coupled wheelbase.

The wheels are wrong for a 44xx. The footplate is at the wrong height for a 44xx.

Nice parallel chimney for a pre-1925, but it would not have been seen on an outside-piped loco. (Nor with a rear lamp shield.)

Put the vacuum pump on the other (right hand) side.

I don't think any of these locos had double battery boxes (I welcome being corrected), but any battery box(es) would be on the other (right hand) side, and not on the lhs.

I can feel a gwr.org.uk page brewing.

There really aren't many differences between 44XX and 45XX but they really jump out at you.    The 44XX has 10 spoke wheels, one had 12s later in life.   45XX have 12 spoke.

44XX have the leading and trailing horn guide slots in the frames 6" further back   The cylinders and valve gear centre axle are the same.  The 45XX  55.5" driving wheels won't fit under the 44XX motion bracket.
The 45XX has deeper buffer beams to make up for the 6" larger driving wheels which need the buffers moved down by 3" to compensate.     I think a straight tank  45XX with 10 spoke driving wheels and shallower buffer beams would  keep most folks happy but for me I wont buy one unless the leading and trailing driving wheels are moved forwards

[Mikkel]

5 hours ago, Halvarras said:

The 'Great Western Railway Journal' whose front cover image I posted on the B Set thread Sunday evening has an article on the St Ives branch with photos of 4409 at the terminus in 1913 (numberplate centre of the tank side)

 

Thank you for directing me to that photo (it's in the "Late Summer 1992" issue p10).

 

It interests me because I'm trying to establish what the earliest time period (and loco numbers) of the Rapido 44xx version might be.

 

The caption dates the photo as 1913. It shows no. 4409 with a copper cap chimney, which according to the instructions for Malcom Mitchell's kit "were fitted for a short while arout 1910, but these were gradually replaced by the familiar cast-iron taper pattern".  The loco is also seen with enlarged bunker and top feed. The smokebox confuses me as it seems longer than the original build but does not have the supporting struts, and according to the Mitchell instructions the extended smokeboxes were a result of superheating, which he says didn't start on this class until 1915 (the first being 4406 in Jan 1915, the last being 4410 in 1927). So perhaps the angle of the photo decieves me? Edit: Having found further photos of the original 44xxs I think that yes, it's just the angle of the photo.

 

Anyway, I have ordered the RCTS GWR locos Vol. 9 which has the details on the Prairies (not my trusty vol 5 on six-coupled tanks as one might think), hopefully that will be a help.

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Mikkel
Edited with further thoughts

[Cwmtwrch]

11 hours ago, Corbs said:

My reference photos of 4404 in this era with the BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering show it as having inside steam pipes, but the smokebox has previously been fitted with outside pipes, the holes being covered by a blanking plate. Circa 1951 on the caption.

Indicating that the boiler had previously been on a loco with outside steam pipes [probably a 45xx].

 

4 hours ago, Mikkel said:

The smokebox confuses me as it seems longer than the original build but does not have the supporting struts

The struts were there to keep the front footplate down, AFAIK, not the smokebox up. Because of the design of the frames Churchward locos were a bit weak in that area.

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/drawings/loco/loco211.jpg

The new cylinders were a direct like-for-like replacement, so far as I know [everything still had to match up with the No. 5 boiler], so the only way to alter the wheelbase would be to alter the standard pony truck arrangements, which seems both unlikely and unnecessary, so I would think not. It would also in theory result in the need for a new weight diagram.

But were the frame extensions renewed or just the cylinders and running plate?

[Harlequin]

Some photo references in “The Wellington, Much Wenlock & Craven Arms Railway” book by Adrian Knowles:

p.113 4403 10th May 1935

p.116 4406 1943

p.117 4403 28th Jun 1936

p.118 4401 5th Sep 1947

p.119 4401 1951

p.121 4401 21sr Apr 1951

p.121 4401 7th Sep 1951

p.123 4401 27th Dec 1951

p.126 4401 21st Apr 1951

p.127 4401 5th Apr 1951

p.137 4409 10th Sep 1949

P.140 4400 10th Sep 1949

p.149 4401 24th Jul 1951

p.168 4406 15th Jul 1950

p.181 4406 Jul 1950

p.199 4401 21st Apr 1951

p.211 4400 10th Sep 1949

p.211 4401 & 4403 8th Jun 1936

p.218 4401 1951

p.235 4409 3rd Aug 1935

p.236 4406 7th Sep 1951

p.236 4400 Aug 1948

p.244 4406 21st Jun 1947

p.245 4409 1949

p.248 4401 7th Sep 1951

p.249 4406 1950

p.249 4409 1950

p.250 4401 Oct 1954

p.250 4406 Nov 1955

p.290 4401 3rd Aug 1935

p.292 4400 13th Nov 1948

p.296 4406 date not given but cycling lion

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Harlequin

[The Johnster]

8 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Indicating that the boiler had previously been on a loco with outside steam pipes [probably a 45xx].

 

The struts were there to keep the front footplate down, AFAIK, not the smokebox up. Because of the design of the frames Churchward locos were a bit weak in that area.

Tbh I hadn’t noticed that; more information to take note of in modelling this engine.  

 

16 hours ago, DCB said:

There really aren't many differences between 44XX and 45XX but they really jump out at you.    The 44XX has 10 spoke wheels, one had 12s later in life.   45XX have 12 spoke.

44XX have the leading and trailing horn guide slots in the frames 6" further back   The cylinders and valve gear centre axle are the same.  The 45XX  55.5" driving wheels won't fit under the 44XX motion bracket.
The 45XX has deeper buffer beams to make up for the 6" larger driving wheels which need the buffers moved down by 3" to compensate.     I think a straight tank  45XX with 10 spoke driving wheels and shallower buffer beams would  keep most folks happy but for me I wont buy one unless the leading and trailing driving wheels are moved forwards

 

The smaller driving wheels ‘look wrong’ and out of proportion with the loco on the 44xx, a bit like seeing a car on one of those horrible little ‘space saver’ 50mph spare wheels, and to my view the 10 spokes make the loco look even more undernourished below the running plate.   The tanks sit lower than on the 45xx because of the lower set of the running plate, which means that more of the boiler, smokebox, and firebox protrude above them.  The overall length is less as well, and the pony wheels are smaller diameter, all of which combines to provide a sort of gawky ‘sit-up-and-beg impression.  
 

Watching one running at any sort of pace, with the wheels spinning madly and the pistons going like the beaks of woodpeckers on acid, must have been fun; Mallard impressions at speeds you could keep up with on a bike!  They certainly had plenty of character!

 

I don’t think one could get away with a 45xx and 10-spoke whirlygigs, even of the correct diameter, though I would have continued struggling with my Rule1 ‘impressionist’ Keyser/Bachmann hybrid had Rap not made this very welcome announcement.  The K’s bodyshell is ‘of it’s era’ but fundamentally sound; the rest of the kit is landfill fodder tbh. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by The Johnster

[Craigw]

40 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Tbh I hadn’t noticed that; more information to take note of in modelling this engine.  

 

 

The smaller driving wheels ‘look wrong’ and out of proportion with the loco on the 44xx, a bit like seeing a car on one of those horrible little ‘space saver’ 50mph spare wheels, and to my view the 10 spokes make the loco look even more undernourished below the running plate.   The tanks sit lower than on the 45xx because of the lower set of the running plate, which means that more of the boiler, smokebox, and firebox protrude above them.  The overall length is less as well, and the pony wheels are smaller diameter, all of which combines to provide a sort of gawky ‘sit-up-and-beg impression.  
 

 

 

It is funny how we all have different perspectives. In NSW (Australia) the majority of the main line steam had small diameter driving wheels (1 in 40 grades or steeper on all the main lines) and that is the aesthetic that I am used to. To me the 44XX looks balanced and the 45XX looks like they have jacked the body up. 

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Oldddudders]

I can imagine the 44xx becoming the new loco of choice - after a pannier - for bijou GWR BLTs. The tiny wheels make it a crowd-pleaser, too, for exhibitions. 

[DCB]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 The tanks sit lower than on the 45xx because of the lower set of the running plate, which means that more of the boiler, smokebox, and firebox protrude above them.  The overall length is less as well, and the pony wheels are smaller diameter, all of which combines to provide a sort of gawky ‘sit-up-and-beg impression.  

 

Which drawings do you have?   I have been looking at Russel   A pictorial record of GWR engines, and the relationship of boiler/ safety valve and Tank height and boiler center line in relation to the centre drivng axle are identical  on all the drawings of 44XX and 45XX  FIG 86,   351,  363. 365, 366, 370,     Only the sole 4-4-2T  the 46XX  in fig 145 is different as the axle is in line with the cylinder centre line not 2.5" below it. and the tanks are quite different.   The drawings appear to be mainly factory drawings. 

 The bunkers vary but up to about 4544 they were all lengthened with a 6" block between the end of the frames and the rear buffer beam.  Some say one 44XX was never lengthened.

[Halvarras]

12 hours ago, DCB said:

 Some say one 44XX was never lengthened.

 

Maybe the one which kept its chimney below the parapet (figuratively speaking) at Penzance until 1942.....!?

[Miss Prism]

I think 4405 was the one that never got lengthened. 4408 was lengthened very late.

 

Upgrades to the 44s seem to happen sporadically, and mods were not applied consistently throughout the class.

[checkrail]

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I think 4405 was the one that never got lengthened. 4408 was lengthened very late.

That's a shame!  I was going to make mine 4405, which according to Beck & Copsey was at Exeter in 1938 and still there in 1946. Also think I've seen a picture of it shunting at Totnes, but can't remember where.

[gwrrob]

3 minutes ago, checkrail said:

That's a shame!  I was going to make mine 4405, which according to Beck & Copsey was at Exeter in 1938 and still there in 1946. Also think I've seen a picture of it shunting at Totnes, but can't remember where.

 

4407 was a Laira based engine John if that's better.

[Corbs]

 

Extract of 4405's rear bufferbeam showing no extension block.

 

8 minutes ago, checkrail said:

That's a shame!  I was going to make mine 4405, which according to Beck & Copsey was at Exeter in 1938 and still there in 1946. Also think I've seen a picture of it shunting at Totnes, but can't remember where.

The Transport Library's photo archive shows 4405 at Totnes in the 1950s (with no extension block visible).

Edited December 1, 2022 by Corbs

[Miss Prism]

Oh yeah, 4407 was always a Laira engine. Here it is at, err, hang on a moment, Swindon.

 

[Bulwell Hall]

4405 was an interesting one!  She was a Newton Abbot engine in 1947 and her regular duty was to work the 'Ashburton Goods'.  This involved a round trip from NA, over Dainton to Totnes where the train reversed.  It then ran up the Ashburton branch, shunting the yard at Buckfastleigh and running on to Ashburton as required. She then made the return run keeping out of the way of the expresses on the main line.   This turn remained her regular duty until the mid 1950s when she was withdrawn.  I do have a photo of her piloting at BTM, but I guess on this occasion she had been put to use whilst en route from SDN back to NA.  She had an extended bunker, and 1930s photos show the spacer behind the rear buffer beam.  But at some stage the rear end must have been rebuilt - perhaps as a result of a 'heavy shunt'? - and she no longer had the spacer even though she still had an extended bunker.  Also, interestingly the photos I have of her show no insignia on her tanks - either in the Great Western period or BR period - another little anomaly.  4410 was the last to retain the shorter bunker which she retained until she was withdrawn on the mid 1950s - one of the Princetown branch engines and one of the last to remain in service. 

 

Below is my version of 4405 built from a Mitchell kit.  There is an interesting story attached to this model but perhaps this isn't really the place for it.  Fascinating little engines!

 

Gerry

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Bulwell Hall

[Corbs]

Question for fellow folllowers of the Church of the Copper Cap:

 

I am trying to find a member of the 4500 class that received BR lined green livery, but it has to be from one of the first 4 batches (ie. 4500-4554) and it has to have either straight frames and inside steam pipes or curved frames and outside steam pipes.

 

So far I've only been able to find examples with the opposite combination, or they were from the final (1924) build (in fact so far it seems as though most of the lined ones were from the final 20).

 

Many thanks.

[Craigw]

9 hours ago, Corbs said:

 

 

I am trying to find a member of the 4500 class that received BR lined green livery, but it has to be from one of the first 4 batches (ie. 4500-4554) and it has to have either straight frames and inside steam pipes or curved frames and outside steam pipes.

 

 

 

4552 is illustrated on page 81 and 94 of the Maidment Prairies and Mogul book. Curved frames and outside steam pipes.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, Corbs said:

Question for fellow folllowers of the Church of the Copper Cap:

 

I am trying to find a member of the 4500 class that received BR lined green livery, but it has to be from one of the first 4 batches (ie. 4500-4554) and it has to have either straight frames and inside steam pipes or curved frames and outside steam pipes.

 

So far I've only been able to find examples with the opposite combination, or they were from the final (1924) build (in fact so far it seems as though most of the lined ones were from the final 20).

 

Many thanks.

This is a list of the only ones from that number series which lasted long enough to have received lined green livery -

 

4505 possibly,  4507,  4508 possibly if shopped after June 1957,  4519,  4536,  4538 but very unlikely,  4540,  4545 possibly but unlikely,   4546 but unlikely,  4547,   4548 but very unlikely and it wasn't according to photo shortly before withdrawal,  4549,  4550,  4551 possibly,  4552,   4553 possibly,  4554 possibly

 

The word possibly indicates that they lasted long enough but they might not have been shopped in their final tear or two.

 

4552 in line green appears to have been a much photographed engine with pictures in at least two books apart from the book mentioned by GraigW.

[melmoth]

Not 4507, I think. It had straight frames but outside steam pipes at withdrawal in 1963.