Rapido OO Gauge GWR 44xx/45xx/4575 Small Prairie

[JimC]

Does the variation in the horizontal hand rail position give any clues? I suppose, though, it's the sort of thing that might have varied anyway. 

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

In the Much Wenlock and Craven Arms Railway book on page 244, I fancy that I can make out the R of G W R under the filth covering 4406 in June 1947.

 

I can't see the 'R' but it has defitinirly been patch cleaned at some time pruior to getting as dirty as it is in that photo. And that pattern of patch cleaning was usually synonymous with the placing of  the  G W R letters.

[RapidoCorbs]

Thanks all, very helpful and good to confirm ref. 4406 and G W R livery :)

 

Interestingly having looked in to the GW Journal articles (thanks to Gareth for the heads-up), 4405 originally had the extension block but was later converted into the full valances (photographed in this condition at Laira in the 1930s).

Similarly there is a picture of 4408 at Tondu in 1952 with what are clearly full-length valances, so that confirms that theory that they were both converted circa early BR-era.

No idea why, accident damage maybe?

[Garethp8873]

10 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

Thanks all, very helpful and good to confirm ref. 4406 and G W R livery :)

 

Interestingly having looked in to the GW Journal articles (thanks to Gareth for the heads-up), 4405 originally had the extension block but was later converted into the full valances (photographed in this condition at Laira in the 1930s).

Similarly there is a picture of 4408 at Tondu in 1952 with what are clearly full-length valances, so that confirms that theory that they were both converted circa early BR-era.

No idea why, accident damage maybe?

 

Your welcome :)

[SteamingWales]

Photo pulled from social media post about newsletters 

 

Is this the chimney of a Prairie and therefore we will get to see colour renders, or something completely different.

 

If different sorry for highjacking Prairie thread 😅

 

[BVMR21]

Surely a bit too stubby for a Prairie?

[gwrrob]

2 hours ago, SteamingWales said:

Photo pulled from social media post about newsletters 

 

Is this the chimney of a Prairie and therefore we will get to see colour renders, or something completely different.

 

If different sorry for highjacking Prairie thread 😅

 

 

It can't be long till we can actually order one then.🤣

Edited June 27, 2023 by gwrrob
Spilling

[rprodgers]

On 15/04/2023 at 11:58, Hal Nail said:

This has reminded me of a query. What is the "tube" that goes through the front of the cab under the driver's side window?

 

I need to source one for my 7mm model but not sure what I'm looking for.

 

I was advised at the SVR that they are a reservoir to do with the ATC.

4566 in the Engine House ,at Highley, has one fitted.

I took some photos but need to resize the files.

[rprodgers]

On 27/06/2023 at 13:14, SteamingWales said:

Photo pulled from social media post about newsletters 

 

Is this the chimney of a Prairie and therefore we will get to see colour renders, or something completely different.

 

If different sorry for highjacking Prairie thread 😅

 

Good to see the render has the earlier copper capped parallel chimney 🙂

[rapidoandy]

Sadly we couldn't quite get these finished and on sale for this newsletter. However progress is happening and we can announce the planned batch we aim to produce:

 

 

 

[sjrixon]

That's looking good.. Certainly like a 4400 on my layout.... 

[Hilux5972]

Ooh looking good. Thank you for the table showing what liveries you are producing. 04 and 09 will be my order I think. 

[rprodgers]

On 30/06/2023 at 12:19, rapidoandy said:

Sadly we couldn't quite get these finished and on sale for this newsletter. However progress is happening and we can announce the planned batch we aim to produce:

 

 

 

@RapidoCorbs will it just be a difference of numbers between 4400 & 4408 or will there be any other differences?

I am guessing this render is for 4400 in the early 1930s, I am unsure when cab portholes disappeared from 44xx s.

Edited July 2, 2023 by rprodgers

[The Johnster]

'04 if I buy one, but a pair of Dapol Diagram N autotrailers are budgeting priority, sorry Andy.  Tbh a 44xx is a luxury at Cwmdimbath; certainly allox TDU in the unlined 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' Egyptian Serif early 1948 style, but I can find no evidence of any of TDU's 44xx ever venturing beyond the Tondu/Porthcawl/Bridgend triangle into the mountain fastnesses.  It is a very attractive little engine, though, and if I can cobble the funds together I will probably buy one.

 

Unless somebody grants my wishes and throws a 2721 or 1854 half-cab pannier into the mix.  These are also diffiuclt to find evidence of north of TDU in early BR days, and the late survivors, 2761 and 1970, were probably not allowed far from a direct line of sight from the foreman's office window in their final months; yard pilot work at Ogmore Jc. being their most likely employment.  They are probably marginally less unlikely than a 44xx up in the hills, though, deputising for a failed 57xx or 8750.  If one is to be made available to current RTR specifications, and there is no indication that one will despite much wishlisting and lobbying (that I have played my own part in), it has to move up the priority list ahead of a 44xx...

 

While I'm shamelessly wishlisting, large prairie 3100 would have to be promoted up the list past either a 44xx or a half-cab; there is photographic evidence of it at Abergwynfi in 1950 and if it got to Abergwynfi, it could have turned up at Cwmdimbath.  Like the 44xx, it was supposedly reserved for the Porthcawl Branch, to work the daily 'Residential' Porthcawl-Cardiff commuter service, with corridor stock.  It had been drafted in when this service resumed after the war in 1946, replacing a series of Bulldogs that had coped with the train before the war, it's 220psi no.4 boiler and 5'3" drivers enabling it to accellerate sharply from the main line stops to avoid getting in the way of faster traffic.

 

This was the 1938 Collet 31xx design, a rebuild of the Churchward 3150; Collett had proposed rebuilding that entire class, but the war and Hawksworth's appointment to the big seat prevented both this initiative and the proposed build of 81xx no.2 boilered 5'6" large prairies for service in the West Midlands and South Wales.  In the event, more 5101s were built, the last being put into traffic in 1950, after which proposed further construction was cancelled for replacement by the new BR standard 3MT 2-6-2Ts.

 

The Abergwynfi 3100 photo is dated 1960 in the Hodge/Davies books, but this has to be a typo for 1950; the loco is in late 1948-49 livery, BRITISH RAILWAYS in Gill Sans lettering and hauling GW (or early 1948) liveried Collett coaches.  3100 was withdrawn in 1957 after 'coming into contact' with the buffers at Porthcawl to the extent that it's frames were bent.  There was some reluctance at Tondu to get rid of it, apparently, as it spend some time on pilot duty at Ogmore Jc before the decision was made to scrap it.  Hodge/Davies suggest that it's relative 'newness' was a factor in this decision, as the loco was 'only' nineteen years old, but of course the 3150 it had been rebuilt from was much older and would have been due for scrapping at around this time.  The other four 31xx and the remaining 3150s were all withdrawn between 1956 and 1960, so 3100's time was probably up and it would have been scrapped within a year or two anyway!

 

The class 3100 was a rebuild of, the Churchward 3150s, must be pretty low-hanging GW fruit for RTR production these days.  They were significantly different in appearance from the original Churchward 31xx/61xx/81xx/5101 line of development, with no.4 boilers and a higher domed cab roof more like a 56xx.  Counting against them as an RTR prospect is that they were not particularly well known and a bit limited in geographical spread; there were 60 built, concentrated on Severn Tunnel Jc where they were used as bankers and pilots, Gloucester where they were used on transfer traffic to Severn Tunnel Jc. and Pontypool Road, where they were similarly used, with a few at Tyseley and Kidderminster.  They did not appear much on passenger trains except as pilots and on the STJ-Pilning car ferry, and observers who were familiar with the Bristol or West of England routes would have been mostly unaware of them.

[Miss Prism]

[Miss Prism]

[Miss Prism]

[Miss Prism]

Quote

 

The kerning and placement of GREAT WESTERN seems to have been individualistic.

 

Sometimes GREAT was spread (see https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1064952532/e2022fbd3), other times it was placed differently (see https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1064952532/e2843a617).

 

The kerning of WESTERN (see http://www.gwr.org.uk/small-prairies/4549-small.jpg) was usually a lot tighter than that of GREAT, in what seems to be an effort to balance the length of the words. Your example is too even.

 

[RapidoCorbs]

Interesting @Miss Prism It's one of those things to think about as either way it'll be a compromise (ref. the cleats) - the conundrum of having something that shouldn't be there, or not having something that should be there (as we can only have one moulding).

 

[Miss Prism]

I understand. I'm amazed you're taking on such a can of worms like the 44xx!

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

 

The kerning and placement of GREAT WESTERN seems to have been individualistic.

 

Sometimes GREAT was spread (see https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1064952532/e2022fbd3), other times it was placed differently (see https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1064952532/e2843a617).

 

The kerning of WESTERN (see http://www.gwr.org.uk/small-prairies/4549-small.jpg) was usually a lot tighter than that of GREAT, in what seems to be an effort to balance the length of the words. Your example is too even.

 

Kerning?  I thought the West Country was more into Gurning ...

 

[RapidoCorbs]

14 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

The kerning and placement of GREAT WESTERN seems to have been individualistic.

 

Sometimes GREAT was spread (see https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1064952532/e2022fbd3), other times it was placed differently (see https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1064952532/e2843a617).

 

The kerning of WESTERN (see http://www.gwr.org.uk/small-prairies/4549-small.jpg) was usually a lot tighter than that of GREAT, in what seems to be an effort to balance the length of the words. Your example is too even.

 

 

Have been looking at this on the big screen and I think I realise what's happened here - I was using a photo of a rather shiny 4401 as the primary reference which appears to be spaced differently. On 4406 and 4403 in the links above the N of WESTERN is on the front panel of the tank whereas on 4401 it's not. 

Looking at the reference photo of 4400 (which is quite grimy and the lettering is indistinct) the N is on the front panel which would point to it being the same style as 03 and 06, so this can change.

 

I need to change the spacing regardless as you say.

 

4401

 

4406

 

4400

 

On 01/07/2023 at 18:09, rprodgers said:

@RapidoCorbs will it just be a difference of numbers between 4400 & 4408 or will there be any other differences?

I am guessing this render is for 4400 in the early 1930s, I am unsure when cab portholes disappeared from 44xx s.

 

Portholes seemed to go at different times but it appears to have mainly been during the GREAT (space) WESTERN livery era. The plan is to have a few detail differences to try to represent the loco as it appears in reference photos, for example 4408 is photographed with a tapered chimney whereas 4400 has the parallel one.

 

Interestingly 4401 and 4406 must have worn the most liveries out of the whole class, you could almost do the list in Andy's post with just those two locos.

 

13 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Kerning?  I thought the West Country was more into Gurning ...

 

 

Not since I was in my 20s.

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by RapidoCorbs

[Dunsignalling]

I have no direct info on the subject of disappearing portholes, but the implementation of such changes to individual engines usually took place at the next overhaul (not necessarily a "general") following the decision to make them. 

 

This however demands an assumption that Swindon and Newton Abbot both started doing things simultaneously!

 

John

[Miss Prism]

Lot 242 was the last lot of 4575s to be built with portholes, in 1927. Here is 4594 re-emerging from Swindon without them in 1932. It is possible of course that 4594 lost them before this date, but a 5-year span for a 'major' seems a reasonable assumption for a small prairie.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p130586643/ecf3f9c76
 

 

 

[checkrail]

Nice pic of 4594.  Bet it didn't stay that clean for long.  There's a fine picture of 4591 at Churston, c.1936, in Beck & Copsey, p109, still with portholes.