Rapido OO Gauge GWR B Set coaches

[Corbs]

(personal opinion not that of RTUK) I don't see the point in making 'middle ground' models, who are they for?

Basic starter sets are great for children and beginners, keep it affordable and replaceable in case of accidents.

Highly-detailed models appeal to people who like that sort of thing.

 

Surely the part in the middle is for the second-hand market (which is MASSIVE) and the bodger-modellers like myself who enjoy customisation?

 

As said above, new models will release older ones on to the second hand market (e.g. Mainline Manors being sold in favour of Dapol/Accurascale ones) allowing more people to buy and enjoy them who would not be able to afford new.

 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Corbs said:

As said above, new models will release older ones on to the second hand market (e.g. Mainline Manors being sold in favour of Dapol/Accurascale ones) allowing more people to buy and enjoy them who would not be able to afford new.

 

I've never bought a new car...

[Corbs]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've never bought a new car...

 

 

Nor I (my car cost less than an APT-E set) but lots of people do which is why I can afford to drive around.

 

[St Enodoc]

11 minutes ago, Corbs said:

I don't see the point in making 'middle ground' models, who are they for?

They're ideal for people with large operational layouts who need lots of good-quality rolling stock without breaking the bank.

[Corbs]

1 minute ago, St Enodoc said:

They're ideal for people with large operational layouts who need lots of good-quality rolling stock without breaking the bank.

 

Are those people buying new? That's what I was getting at with the second part of the post. What's wrong with the second-hand market (or building/customising your own stuff) for bulking out large collections?

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

They're ideal for people with large operational layouts who need lots of good-quality rolling stock without breaking the bank.

 

But if you're buying a B-set you're likely to be modelling a GWR or BR(W) branch line where the B-set is practically the only passenger stock required.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Compound2632

[St Enodoc]

3 minutes ago, Corbs said:

 

Are those people buying new? That's what I was getting at with the second part of the post. What's wrong with the second-hand market (or building/customising your own stuff) for bulking out large collections?

Both, in my case.

 

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

But if you're buying a B-set you're likely to be modelling a GWR or BR(W) branch line where the B-set is practically the only passenger stock required. The alternative is that you've the space to model somewhere like Taunton or Exeter...

The Saturday service on my layout needs five B-Sets plus three strengtheners.

[VIA185]

9 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

They're ideal for people with large operational layouts who need lots of good-quality rolling stock without breaking the bank.

Manufacturers need sales. They need to cater for the market where there's money to be made. I suspect there are far more people with small layouts or even static displays, who will buy a few choice items, than there are 'people with large operational layouts'. The top-notch stuff will filter through to the secondhand market, given time. (CJL)

[Corbs]

For me, asking for the middle ground in new models is so subjective that for most people it will miss the mark. It still won't be affordable enough for a new starter or young person, and it won't be detailed enough for the coin-a-sewer when other, similar models are available with more detail for (relatively) not much more.

What is an acceptable compromise to one person will be a no-no to another.

EDIT (sorry, forgot) - in my case I would rather spend my hard-earned on a new model when I feel like the manufacturer has done the best they can to make it as good as they can. I would not buy a new middle-of-the-road model when I can just lash up some second hand stuff.

 

EDIT 2 - apologies if this comes across as overly negative or haughty, I realise that this thread is for one of my employers products that I have been working on but I don't mean it to sound like I am just being defensive because of that. 

With my 'company' hat on, I really feel proud that we do try to make the models as good as we can, even though they end up being on the pricier end of the scale.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Corbs

[Corbs]

28 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Both, in my case.

 

The Saturday service on my layout needs five B-Sets plus three strengtheners.

What's your plan for this? Do you have superannuated Airfix/Hornby ones at the moment, in which case are you going to keep them or gradually replace with RTUK ones as and when you got the monies, or are you going to keep an eye out for cheapy cheap ones that are being released onto the market as the RTUK ones go out?

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Corbs

[Corbs]

oooh I forgot in the excitement - roof on the GWR Roundel versions has been switched to the correct 1930s white. There should now be one smoking first and one non-smoking first in each pair.

 

Also moved the location of the roundel after examining the reference pic a little more and comparing it to where the coat of arms sits on the other liveries - it's not in the same place on each side.

 

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, VIA185 said:

..... but wouldn't it be fabulous just to know it was there, complete (as on their North American dining cars) with plates and cutlery on the tables! (CJL)

 

It would surely depend, for most of us, how much extra the inclusion of invisible detail costs.

 

I'm sorry, but paying significantly extra for something that we will never see makes no sense whatsoever to me.

 

.... and don't anyone tell me that tooling a fully detailed interior - and providing lights - doesn't significantly add to cost, because it most certainly does. It is common knowledge that the tooling design and production costs are a very major proportion of the cost of production - mega money, that some companies need to take in advance from customers if the project is to proceed. (I am aware that this is not the case with this particular producer).

 

CJI.

[Corbs]

3 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

It would surely depend, for most of us, how much extra the inclusion of invisible detail costs.

 

 

I asked and was told the luggage rack works out at about a pound per coach.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Corbs

[rapidoandy]

9 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

It would surely depend, for most of us, how much extra the inclusion of invisible detail costs.

 

I'm sorry, but paying significantly extra for something that we will never see makes no sense whatsoever to me.

 

.... and don't anyone tell me that tooling a fully detailed interior - and providing lights - doesn't significantly add to cost, because it most certainly does. It is common knowledge that the tooling design and production costs are a very major proportion of the cost of production - mega money, that some companies need to take in advance from customers if the project is to proceed. (I am aware that this is not the case with this particular producer).

 

CJI.

 

Interesting turn of events for this thread...

 

Well I will tell you - its not about how much detail you put in - but how well you design it. Assembly and decoration are the biggest factors. If they are fiddly details that cannot be set up on a jig or are unique to one version etc it gets expensive.

 

However,

 

In the case of the B set the compartments are modular and the internal walls a separate part. They are also the same across EVERY version. The net result is they can be assembled on a jig and in bulk (alongside interior printing is easier and requires less masking,. The net result is that the cost of the luggage racks and detailed interior is almost negligible - and with so many people looking at new models so hard these days it seems madness not to include it.

 

So to summarise - you are not paying significantly extra, and taking out the luggage racks would save very little.

 

Oh and in the grand scheme of things (like % of the final unit cost) tooling is not a huge amount. The production costs are where all the main money is. Tooling isn't cheap but production is a darn sight more expensive.

 

The who financial background to a model is VERY complicated. Sometimes its cheaper to have MORE parts in a model compared to a part that needs a specialised mould to make it. Understanding and designing a model a certain way from the outset can have a huge impact on costs.

 

Happy Thursday.

 

Andy

 

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

On price.

 

The Airifix B-set carriages were listed at £4,25 in the August 1979 price list: 

http://www.airfixrailways.co.uk/GMRpriceList2.htm.

 

That's £8.50 for a pair. According to the Bank of England inflation calculator, £8.50 in 1979 would have the same purchasing power as £38.39 in November 2022, this calculation being based on CPI values. So, at £144 for the pair, the Rapido carriages are 3.75 times as expensive. But if we compare the list price of the Airfix Royal Scot in 1979, £22.95, an amount equivalent to a purchasing power of £103.64 in November 2022, it's evident that the multiplier for new large locomotives is around a factor of two-and-a-bit. (A direct comparison is not possible since there's no current Royal Scot model, the Hornby one not being listed; the Bachmann Jubilee / Patriot come closest but are not brand new releases.) 

 

So top-of-the-range carriages are relatively more expensive than the products of over forty years ago than are top-of-the-range locomotives. But one can argue that the difference in quality is proportionately greater. It's not a like-for-like comparison.

 

What would be the reaction to the Airfix B-set coach if it was released as being an all-new model today? We'd have a chorus of outrage that it wasn't up to modern standards!

But forty years ago, only Airfix and Mainline offered r-t-r coaches worthy of being described as "top-of-the range", and that only by the standards of the day *.

 

However, that was mainly because they were of recognisable prototypes. They (and the current Hornby versions of them) are extremely basic in other respects, particularly if placed against the samples that Rapido have shown us.

 

Most other r-t-r coaches in the late 1970s were a semi-generic mess and "proper" ones really started with the introduction of Bachmann's BR Mk1 range.

 

I think it's fair to say that the-across-the-board improvement in r-t-r coaches over that period has easily equalled that of locomotives 

 

John

 

* Bachmann's original Bulleids and Thompsons came somewhat later IIRC

Edited December 15, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[cctransuk]

Since it seems that my point is not getting through - or is being deliberately 'overlooked' - I will spell it out in one word - PRICE.

 

.... and this is not a peevish reaction because I can't afford to buy the product - I could. I have two B-sets; a Keyser flat-ended one and an Airfix bow-ended one; both have been detailed and repainted to a good standard. I could sell both of these on Ebay and buy the new models instead.

 

I won't, because I deem the asking price to be excessive for a pair of coaches, however well detailed they may be within their invisible interiors, and elsewhere.

 

My major concern, though, is that today's prices will make the hobby of railway modelling seem, to younger, less affluent persons, the sole preserve of old, retired men with too much time and money on their hands.

 

At present, all the producers of railway models seem to be chasing their tails to add ever more exterior detail - and I cannot take exception to this, though it does, inevitably, add to the cost of their products.

 

However, we have now arrived at the point where interior detail is being added which is invisible unless the model is dismantled!

 

We are told that it would be fantastic just to know that the detail is there, even though we cannot see it!

 

IMHO, that way lies madness - a classic case of 'The Emporer's New Clothes'.

 

Why on earth would we wish to pay significantly more for detail that is invisible? ..... and it does cost significantly more - tooling is one of the principal costs of production, possibly THE principal cost.

 

I know that my view will be in the minority but, especially during the current recession, ever-spiralling prices WILL become unsustainable.

 

CJI.

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by cctransuk

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Why on earth would we wish to pay significantly more for detail that is invisible? ..... and it does cost significantly more - tooling is one of the principal costs of production, possibly THE principal cost.

 

42 minutes ago, rapidoandy said:

Oh and in the grand scheme of things (like % of the final unit cost) tooling is not a huge amount. The production costs are where all the main money is. Tooling isn't cheap but production is a darn sight more expensive.

 

Interesting. I wonder which of these posters has a better insight into the actual cost breakdown for these models?

[Dunsignalling]

17 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Since it seems that my point is not getting through - or is being deliberately 'overlooked' - I will spell it out in one word - PRICE.

 

.... and this is not a peevish reaction because I can't afford to buy the product - I could. I have two B-sets; a Keyser flat-ended one and an Airfix bow-ended one; both have been detailed and repainted to a good standard. I could sell both of these on Ebay and buy the new models instead.

 

I won't, because I deem the asking price to be excessive for a pair of coaches, however well detailed they may be within their invisible interiors, and elsewhere.

 

My major concern, though, is that today's prices will make the hobby of railway modelling seem, to younger, less affluent persons, the sole preserve of old, retired men with too much time and money on their hands.

 

At present, all the producers of railway models seem to be chasing their tails to add ever more exterior detail - and I cannot take exception to this, though it does, inevitably, add to the cost of their products.

 

However, we have now arrived at the point where interior detail is being added which is invisible unless the model is dismantled!

 

We are told that it would be fantastic just to know that the detail is there, even though we cannot see it!

 

IMHO, that way lies madness - a classic case of 'The Emporer's New Clothes'.

 

Why on earth would we wish to pay significantly more for detail that is invisible? ..... and it does cost significantly more - tooling is one of the principal costs of production, possibly THE principal cost.

 

I know that my view will be in the minority but, especially during the current recession, ever-spiralling prices WILL be come unsustainable.

 

CJI.

 

In other words, model railways are heading back to the way they were before Tri-ang arrived on the scene.

 

The effect of that might be a decline in participation, but newcomers can still pick up decent Airfix  coaches for ten or fifteen quid a go and do what you did to yours.

 

The second-hand market served me well in my early modelling days and still does, though what seek is different. The big effect of rising prices is that I really have to steel myself to pull a brand-new model out of the box and start hacking it about! That said, few things need more than gentle tweaking and a change of couplings these days.

 

John

Edited December 15, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Corbs]

I think that we all project our personal experiences and views onto the market, in my case my love of the second hand market is a reflection of when I came back to the hobby circa 10 years ago, we were living in our first place on our own (rather than a house share), money was tight, I was a bit younger than I am now (!) and I engaged with the hobby by buying cheap second hand cast-offs from people who had upgraded to new fancy stuff.

The first ever new models I bought with my own money (in my whole life) were the two Caley 812s when I was into my 30s.

I was under no delusions that I could afford new things at the time and therefore saw no need to complain about the price of said new models when the wonders of eBay and model/toy fairs were available.

 

It is right to keep the need for fresh blood in mind but from my point of view it's not an issue because there is so much stuff that is affordable out there with the compromise that it's not as good as the new stuff. if it were, then there would be no point in making it.

 

Conversely, recently I have seen multiple young people spending waaaaay in excess of what I would (even now at 35) on brand new models, so maybe the opposite is true.
 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Corbs

[cctransuk]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Interesting. I wonder which of these posters has a better insight into the actual cost breakdown for these models?

 

I would have thought that was obvious, and I fully accept the information from a better informed source.

 

My reason for posting was that we seem to have reached a point with detailing where it might be wise to consider for how much longer, particularly with the economy in recession, prices can continue to spiral upwards- even by degrees - before there are adverse consequences for the hobby.

 

CJI.

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, rapidoandy said:

Oh and in the grand scheme of things (like % of the final unit cost) tooling is not a huge amount. The production costs are where all the main money is. Tooling isn't cheap but production is a darn sight more expensive.

I remember this being discussed when the Bachmann Autocoach came out - and the point that was raised there regarding development costs was that development costs (research, design etc) for a range of coaches was pretty much the same whether you did one coach, like that, or a whole range (like, say, the Hornby Collets) - with the additional tooling costs for each vehicle not adding a vast amount - the problem being that for something like an Autocoach, most people will buy one (or n the case of this B-set, two), wheras with a larger ranges many will buy a whole trainload - at least three or four, many getting five or six or more - spreading the development cost over far more models, and so helping to bring down the cost per vehicle.

[Dunsignalling]

41 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I would have thought that was obvious, and I fully accept the information from a better informed source.

 

My reason for posting was that we seem to have reached a point with detailing where it might be wise to consider for how much longer, particularly with the economy in recession, prices can continue to spiral upwards- even by degrees - before there are adverse consequences for the hobby.

 

CJI.

Surely, any adverse consequences would fall on those producing items that we decline to buy on grounds of cost. 

 

Go to any swapmeet and it's obvious that "the hobby" is awash with used models that are way better than anything I started off with. OK, its often mixed in with the sort of stuff I did start with and you need get past the frogs to find the odd prince. I've always thought that to be half the fun, though. My last bargain was a mint but unboxed early-release Bachmann Ivatt for £30 that runs better than the one I bought new back in the day ever did! Dealer said that had it been in its original box, he'd have been asking double. Suits me, I'll be keeping it in an engine shed once I've worked it over.😀

 

As in other fields, you can expect to pay state-of-the-art-prices for state-of-the-art products but there are always alternatives.

 

Recently, I wanted a "10x super-zoom lens" for my camera to save lugging a bagful on holiday. A Mk2 version had recently been introduced, at the thick end of £700, but I did a bit of research and discovered it wasn't actually much altered from the Mk1. I therefore sought used Mk1s on the web and acquired a mint one for £220 with which I am entirely delighted! I wonder what the poor sap who traded it in got for it.

 

John

Edited December 15, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

My major concern, though, is that today's prices will make the hobby of railway modelling seem, to younger, less affluent persons, the sole preserve of old, retired men with too much time and money on their hands.

 

 

I know that my view will be in the minority but, especially during the current recession, ever-spiralling prices WILL be come unsustainable.

 

Yet again we are asked to "think of the children" as a justification for the complaints about the price of new items.

 

The key points about this (that are the same today as all the previous times this topic has come up) are:

• if there was a market for cheaper models someone would be filling it(*), the fact that no one is tooling up new models at the "affordable" end is a pretty good indication there is no market for it to be done profitably - the fact that tooling and other costs may be less if you can't sell enough models.
• this has been a constant complaint in this hobby for 60+ years and yet the hobby is still thriving.
• kids aren't always as poor as some people think - everything they are interested in whether it be sports, electronics, etc. is expensive.  If they are into trains they will find a way whether it be keeping a cell phone for an extra year or using the used market or some of the more affordable old-tooling items

* - yes, not the UK, but over in the US one company (ScaleTrains) does for many of their models offer and affordable version (Operator) and detailed version (Rivet Counter) - in online Q&A sessions that have stated that the "affordable" version is 10% to 15% of the total sales vs 85% to 90% for the detailed versions.  The market has spoken and they have indicated that some models in the future won't be offered with an Operator version because the potential sales don't justify the expense.

[MJI]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

But forty years ago, only Airfix and Mainline offered r-t-r coaches worthy of being described as "top-of-the range", and that only by the standards of the day *.

 

However, that was mainly because they were of recognisable prototypes. They (and the current Hornby versions of them) are extremely basic in other respects, particularly if placed against the samples that Rapido have shown us.

 

Most other r-t-r coaches in the late 1970s were a semi-generic mess and "proper" ones really started with the introduction of Bachmann's BR Mk1 range.

 

I think it's fair to say that the-across-the-board improvement in r-t-r coaches over that period has easily equalled that of locomotives 

 

John

 

* Bachmann's original Bulleids and Thompsons came somewhat later IIRC

 

 

Actually the models around in the 70s were pretty accurate, but crude detailing.

 

The original Triang Hornby mark 2 is pretty good except for the window depth, the mark 1s are a bit crude but accurate. We tend to remember Lima fondly but they had a few scale nasties we all overlooked at the time. The biggest problem of that era was using a small number of models for everything.

 

The models which really pushed to quality first were the Mainline Colletts, and RBR. The Airfix stock was a cross over between the cruder stuff and the newer more detailed stuff.

 

Bachmann Mark 1s, they do not do the later versions with window frames, which is a pity.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

They're ideal for people with large operational layouts who need lots of good-quality rolling stock without breaking the bank.

In general, those with properties of a size to accommodate large operational layouts aren't usually short of money. Perhaps the need for top-grade stock on such layouts is less clear cut, though.

 

I am involved with a pal's layout that's 50' x 18' and located in a purpose-built centrally heated thermal block building. But for the small windows, it could pass as a bungalow and would have cost a small fortune had he not built it himself. He made the nearby swimming pool too!

 

The layout runs by the "signalman" setting routes and clearing signals. Drivers have wireless hand sets and walk with their trains, obeying signals as they go. Thing is, though, you almost never get closer than about 3' to a train, and you seldom observe the coaches beyond checking the tail lamp. He's still got one rake of worked-over Lima Mk1s but nobody ever notices unless they are running the fiddle yard!     

 

John