Rapido OO Gauge GWR B Set coaches

[Miss Prism]

Yer can't beat RMweb for a bit of mutual confusion and education.

 

[Bulwell Hall]

One thing that strikes me from the Rapido B set CAD files shown - and highlighted by the photo of the Lionheart 7mm scale B set - is the guttering at the eaves level.  These gutters overhang the ends at both ends of the coach and is a quite significant feature of these vehicles.  I am surprised to see that the 7mm version doesn't have this overhang, not having seen these models in detail before.  This is an important feature and the overhang needs to be incorporated - Hornby recognised this and did it correctly on their Collett Bow - end coaches, both corrider and non-corridor versions, so there isn't really any excuse for its omission.  And I'm rather interested in the claim that these models are made from official drawings.  I have been involved with a friend in the design and production of a bespoke set of etches to build a 4mm scale Diagram E140 B set for our own use and, in spite of many enquiries, we found no trace of any official drawings.  Having received the etches last November construction of the two coaches took a good few months earlier this year and the models are currently away for painting and lining.  You might think that I would be dismayed by the news of the proposed Rapido models but I'm not - the rtr version is probably at least a year away and I hope that mine will be completed well before then.  And I can use another set for a stopping service on the main line so I shall certainly be placing an order in due course once I know what the livery options are likely to be.

 

Gerry

[Cwmtwrch]

8 hours ago, Corbs said:

It really is an odd one. If it weren't for the location limiting the timeframe then could be forgiven for assuming it's an earlier photo.

The Rail online full photo is here https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p130586643/h5a804356#h5a804356.

There is another interesting photo here https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p993578166/h8a4bb380#h8a4bb380

 

The oil drum on the left in both pictures rather looks like the same one? Anyone know when the bracket signal went U/Q? It was before 1956 apparently, but that doesn't help a lot...

[Corbs]

24 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

The Rail online full photo is here https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p130586643/h5a804356#h5a804356.

There is another interesting photo here https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p993578166/h8a4bb380#h8a4bb380

 

The oil drum on the left in both pictures rather looks like the same one? Anyone know when the bracket signal went U/Q? It was before 1956 apparently, but that doesn't help a lot...

 

Well that is very interesting. Certainly looks like it was taken with the same camera settings, likely same day. No smokebox numberplate on No.1852, just bufferbeam numbers.

 

I bought the picture and adjusted levels, you can make out SOUTHERN and the number on the tender, there does not look to be a painted cabside number. I think you might be able to make out a hint of lining which if true would suggest green livery.

https://sremg.org.uk/ states all N class locos were painted black by the end of the war, I presume with cabside numbers and just SOUTHERN on the tender (lower down). No exact date given for No.1852.

 

So maybe this points towards the date being pre-war or wartime?

 

Got to love a good bit of group sleuthing!

Edited December 1, 2022 by Corbs

[rapidoandy]

1 hour ago, Bulwell Hall said:

One thing that strikes me from the Rapido B set CAD files shown - and highlighted by the photo of the Lionheart 7mm scale B set - is the guttering at the eaves level.  These gutters overhang the ends at both ends of the coach and is a quite significant feature of these vehicles.  I am surprised to see that the 7mm version doesn't have this overhang, not having seen these models in detail before.  This is an important feature and the overhang needs to be incorporated - Hornby recognised this and did it correctly on their Collett Bow - end coaches, both corrider and non-corridor versions, so there isn't really any excuse for its omission.  And I'm rather interested in the claim that these models are made from official drawings.  I have been involved with a friend in the design and production of a bespoke set of etches to build a 4mm scale Diagram E140 B set for our own use and, in spite of many enquiries, we found no trace of any official drawings.  Having received the etches last November construction of the two coaches took a good few months earlier this year and the models are currently away for painting and lining.  You might think that I would be dismayed by the news of the proposed Rapido models but I'm not - the rtr version is probably at least a year away and I hope that mine will be completed well before then.  And I can use another set for a stopping service on the main line so I shall certainly be placing an order in due course once I know what the livery options are likely to be.

 

Gerry

In a previous life I used to specialise in finding locomotive and rolling stock drawings. 
 

We certainly had drawings for

the underframe arrangement, brake arrangement, buffing gear, body work and first and third class compartment layout/detail drawings along with various bogie drawings all relating to lot 1407 - the first batch of E140. I think on this occasion they came from a private individual who like me collects works drawings 😀.

[Corbs]

2 hours ago, Corbs said:

 

Well that is very interesting. Certainly looks like it was taken with the same camera settings, likely same day. No smokebox numberplate on No.1852, just bufferbeam numbers.

 

I bought the picture and adjusted levels, you can make out SOUTHERN and the number on the tender, there does not look to be a painted cabside number. I think you might be able to make out a hint of lining which if true would suggest green livery.

https://sremg.org.uk/ states all N class locos were painted black by the end of the war, I presume with cabside numbers and just SOUTHERN on the tender (lower down). No exact date given for No.1852.

 

So maybe this points towards the date being pre-war or wartime?

 

Got to love a good bit of group sleuthing!

 

 

Think we have an answer on the roundel vs. post war livery question, thanks to BenL for sending through the article.

 

H.C.Casserley's 1949 photo of the same pair of coaches (which I think reveals a typo in that 6778 should be 6978, which would make sense as it's paired with 6977). Loco in early BR livery, coaches in post-war livery with 7" chocolate band across the top and 'W' prefixes added (wartime/post war sans serif font rather than the earlier 'chubby' sans serif shaded font).

 

[Miss Prism]

My apologies for the typo in the coach number. (Now corrected!)

 

The picture proves the Rail-Online one cannot be early 50s, and also proves that small prairies and B-sets were making regular forays into Wadebridge a lot earlier than the 'operating ownership of the line' would indicate.

 

[Miss Prism]

Is this an E140?  (With 5504 at what I think is Chard Junction.)

 

[Nick C]

13 hours ago, Corbs said:

 

Well that is very interesting. Certainly looks like it was taken with the same camera settings, likely same day. No smokebox numberplate on No.1852, just bufferbeam numbers.

 

I bought the picture and adjusted levels, you can make out SOUTHERN and the number on the tender, there does not look to be a painted cabside number. I think you might be able to make out a hint of lining which if true would suggest green livery.

https://sremg.org.uk/ states all N class locos were painted black by the end of the war, I presume with cabside numbers and just SOUTHERN on the tender (lower down). No exact date given for No.1852.

 

So maybe this points towards the date being pre-war or wartime?

 

Got to love a good bit of group sleuthing!

That looks like Maunsell Green to me - you can also just make out the cast cabside numberplate under the pep pipe.

 

There's a photo dated 1948 on Disused Stations clearly showing upper quadrants. There's also this 1932 shot on Britain From Above showing the lower quadrants on a nice clean post - so I'd put this photo as late 30s.

[Corbs]

On 02/12/2022 at 02:18, Miss Prism said:

Is this an E140?  (With 5504 at what I think is Chard Junction.)

 

 

I think it may well be - not been able to make out the running number though. 

[Corbs]

A couple of updated drafts. Thanks again to everyone who has helped with these. As before these are just drafts and are subject to change.

 

Wartime Brown with yellow-outlined-black lettering. I am still undecided on the number transfers as in the photo they look so much like the older style.

 

Post-war GWR livery with double lining - this is the same set as shown in Russell's book with double lining (but no vertical lining between the two horizontal bands).

7" chocolate strip across the top, lined. Lettering is gold-outlined-black.

 

 

Early BR(W) chocolate and cream, essentially the post-war GWR livery but with the branding removed and W prefix added to the numbers.

Based on the photo in the Bodmin article but with the numbers changed to a different set to avoid a number clash, this is provisionally numbered W6999 / W7000.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Corbs

[gwrrob]

Wartime brown, now that wasn’t in the script on the announcement given at Warley.

[Miss Prism]

I've just realised that G W R on the waist (with the coat of arms beneath) has to be placed between compartments, whereas the Great coat of arms Western has to be centred on a door. (Compartment stock, of course.)

[nigel newling]

Have you got model numbers for the post WW2 GW so that I can get my pre order in please? :-)

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, Corbs said:

A couple of updated drafts. Thanks again to everyone who has helped with these. As before these are just drafts and are subject to change.

 

Wartime Brown with yellow-outlined-black lettering. I am still undecided on the number transfers as in the photo they look so much like the older style.

 

Post-war GWR livery with double lining - this is the same set as shown in Russell's book with double lining (but no vertical lining between the two horizontal bands).

7" chocolate strip across the top, lined. Lettering is gold-outlined-black.

 

 

Early BR(W) chocolate and cream, essentially the post-war GWR livery but with the branding removed and W prefix added to the numbers.

Based on the photo in the Bodmin article but with the numbers changed to a different set to avoid a number clash, this is provisionally numbered W6999 / W7000.

 

 

 

 

 

The two R’s in “Great Western” are different and I think the bar in the G is probably too big.

And I think the characters in "Great Western" need a little bit more tracking applied.

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Harlequin

[Corbs]

28 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

The two R’s in “Great Western” are different and I think the bar in the G is probably too big.

And I think the characters in "Great Western" need a little bit more tracking applied.

 

 

I think it needs re-doing to be honest - current one uses a proxy font that I was adapting but a trace will likely be better.

 

I believe this pic is from a Didcot carriage - note the R is different to both the ones I currently have - the overall 'weight' is slightly thinner too. The S is less curvalicious etc.

Will add to amends list 👍

 

 

[The Fatadder]

2 hours ago, Corbs said:

Wartime Brown with yellow-outlined-black lettering. I am still undecided on the number transfers as in the photo they look so much like the older style.

 

will 6453/54 have Kingsbridge branch branding?

 

happy to help with the photos, will of course have to get a set ordered.  Just need to decide on the livery for the other set now….

[gwrrob]

6 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

will 6453/54 have Kingsbridge branch branding?

 

 

An early Christmas present for us if it does Rich.

[Harlequin]

47 minutes ago, Corbs said:

 

I think it needs re-doing to be honest - current one uses a proxy font that I was adapting but a trace will likely be better.

 

I believe this pic is from a Didcot carriage - note the R is different to both the ones I currently have - the overall 'weight' is slightly thinner too. The S is less curvalicious etc.

Will add to amends list 👍

 

 

Hi Corbs,

 

If that’s a photo of a carriage in preservation then I’m sure you’re treating it with due respect… 🙂 It seems really odd to have different shaped R/s in the insignia and I don’t think I see that in the photos in the Russell Appendix. E.g. figs 409 and 418.

It looks like the GWR adapted, or used variants of, the standard Gill Sans G and R characters to me.

 

Maybe the black outline around a normal weight Gill Sans variant might account for it looking lighter if the black is centred on the glyph outlines?

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Harlequin

[Corbs]

15 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Corbs,

 

If that’s a photo of a carriage in preservation then I’m sure you’re treating it with due respect… 🙂 It seems really odd to have different shaped R/s in the insignia and I don’t think I see that in the photos in the Russell Appendix. E.g. figs 409 and 418.

It looks like the GWR adapted, or used variants of, the standard Gill Sans G and R characters to me.

 

Maybe the black outline around a normal weight Gill Sans variant might account for it looking lighter if the black is centred on the glyph outlines?

 

 

Indeed, the perils of copying preserved stock, or other models for that matter.

Am waiting for my physical copy to arrive but think it is stuck in the strikes :(  so I've been bothering the office asking for various scans and photos in the meantime.

 

The proxy font I've used is based on a BR Gill Sans variant, things like the R and W are quite different but it does allow mock-ups to be made quite quickly.

 

 

[Corbs]

42 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

will 6453/54 have Kingsbridge branch branding?

 

happy to help with the photos, will of course have to get a set ordered.  Just need to decide on the livery for the other set now….

 

If it does end up going on sale and has those running numbers then it should have 'Kingsbridge Branch No.2' branding - GWR.org.uk has it assigned there from 5/6/1936 to around 5/1956, condemned 21/2/1959.

[The Fatadder]

43 minutes ago, Corbs said:

 

If it does end up going on sale and has those running numbers then it should have 'Kingsbridge Branch No.2' branding - GWR.org.uk has it assigned there from 5/6/1936 to around 5/1956, condemned 21/2/1959.

Fingers crossed!

[tomparryharry]

Ooh, nice! So faree, so Goodie...

 

Will they have the new, improved Hornby bogies....?

 

Where's that bl**dy taxi......?

[The Johnster]

The bogies will have to be phenomenal to be better than Hornby’s Collett 7’; if anyone can pull this trick off, it’s Rapido!

Edited December 6, 2022 by The Johnster

[Dunsignalling]

On 04/12/2022 at 22:11, Corbs said:

 

Indeed, the perils of copying preserved stock, or other models for that matter.

Am waiting for my physical copy to arrive but think it is stuck in the strikes :(  so I've been bothering the office asking for various scans and photos in the meantime.

 

The proxy font I've used is based on a BR Gill Sans variant, things like the R and W are quite different but it does allow mock-ups to be made quite quickly.

 

 

The GWS appears to have used Gill Sans transfers on their coach, too. The "Western" would look quite at home followed by "National" 🙂.

 

The font originated in 1928 and later became pretty ubiquitous in the era of nationalised public transport but did the GWR ever use it?

 

John

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Dunsignalling