Hornby 2023 Speculation?

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Les1952 said:

Peppercorn A1?  Not Tornado but A1.

 

From the interviews with the CAD designer in the TT magazine (one of three designers) everything is being designed for TT:120 from the ground up because plastic thicknesses, space for motors and clearances can't be scaled down from OO for practical reasons.  

 

However, that may not stop them scaling things UP from TT:120.

 

Les

 

 

 

It would make little sense to scale down from 00, a compromised form of 4mm, anyway. Apart from the valid point you make about plastic thicknesses, space for motors, and clearances, tooling up for 1:120 locos and stock on 1:120 correctly gauged track will mean that the problems experienced with the alignment of brake blocks, splashers too far in, firebox bottoms too narrow and so on can be dispensed with, finally.

 

The 00 pioneers compromised because they had no choice if they were to succeed in making UK outline models small enough to run on 16.2mm gauge H0 track, because the smaller British loading gauge meant that they could not fit the bulky motors of the day inside the bodyshells, and even with the 00 compromises, Hornby Dublo filled their locos' cabs with the motors.  A possible opportunity to provide the volume production support that British outline H0 needed to get off the ground was lost when Lima attempted it in the 70s, largely because the models were of very low quality, and the trade has been so resolutely embedded in 00 since then that any alternative is unthinkable for RTR.  Only a complete break from anything to do with 16.2mm gauge track has any chance of success, and the models will have to be of high quality and to scale, and run smoothly and slowly, to avoid the reputation that N gauge suffered with 30 or 40 years ago that still blight it.

 

Scaling 00 models down would be a disaster; they have to be designed and tooled from the railhead up as completely new items, which TTBOMK is what is happening.  It is quite wonderful to see Hornby, a firm traditionally associated with compromises and low quality in 00 that still has some terrible old dogs in it's 00 catalogue, leading this initiative; could lead to them finally shaking off some of the ghosts that still haunt them, like Sir Dinadan and 'design clever' (read 'design cheap and nasty').

 

IMHO, of course!

[jjb1970]

I think design clever is a very maligned concept, the idea is fundamentally sound (put the development money into the bits customers will notice, economise elsewhere) and in reality I think most good designers will do it to some degree. If I look at Japanese N it is quite apparent they apply a design clever type approach. The problem wasn't the concept, it was execution, it is no different from any other idea in that it can be done well or it can be done badly. I have always felt the same about Hornby Railroad, the concept of a lower cost tier for those on a budget or who don't want super detailed models and for what remains of the toy segment is perfectly sensible and it is a concept very widely used (Roco, Piko, Marklin/Trix for example). The problem is that Railroad is itself such a broad range, going from models which are very good models and not cheap such as the Crosti 9F down to endless re-runs of their trainset 0-4-0 steamers and similar. Piko went for a three tier range and I think that would be a better option for Hornby to split the toy railroad items from the lower spec/cost models aimed at the enthusiast segment.

Hornby can get it very right. In threads around here it is very easy (and perhaps very tempting) to go full on negative but they do produce some wonderful models and provide a service to the hobby by continuing to provide an entry point and options for the budget conscious. I am a fan of Hornby and despite all my criticisms have a special affection for the company, I would just like them to do what they do a bit better.

 

[e30ftw]

yep filter by release date, seems to be there yet to be announced models?

 

Railroad "plus" 40 and 37

 

Get your pre orders in for the 121 bubble car in coke livery......😐

[Delta_Who]

The railroad plus 40 and 37 was a 2022 announcement, just the artwork/photography was updated.

[Pmorgancym]

4 hours ago, Nova Scotian said:

That's what I see - plus some others.

 

I really hope someone at Hornby's not having a bad day (or won't have a bad day tomorrow...) and this is all part of their launch/roll-out.

Pretty certain that's all 2022 stuff

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, Nova Scotian said:

Anyone else seeing new stuff on the Hornby website? A "railroad plus" Class 40. Various A3s in Dublo, including the Pegler USA tour spec. Class 802 TPE. Class 423 in southwest and Southern. 800 GWR trainbow. The prince of wales P2 new build. Streamlined P2. Standard 2. Class 100 as a "railroad plus".

 

Class 50 can't tell if new liveries or retool. 

 

And then tonnes of TT - HSTs, big diesels, kettles, etc.

 

Or did everyone already see this? Struggling with the search function tonight... went through a few pages and couldn't see it.

Its all last years stuff.

 

Just hasnt been released yet.

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

The TT:120 releases imply a retooled 21T mineral in OO some time soon. Might suit you.

Already covered by another brand that spotted the gap in the market.

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, big jim said:

yeah, I’m seeing those items, are they not previously announced, I’m not really up to speed on Hornby stuff?

 

 

 

 

Anything with a 4-digit R-number will either be a re-run or extremely late.

 

[big jim]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Its all last years stuff.

 

Just hasnt been released yet.

I must have missed some of those announcements, I didn’t know about the TPE 802 or Scotrail 153s 

[ThaneofFife]

Have H ever done a Finsbury Park white stripe nicely bulled up 31/4?

 

I would love to see them announce a brace of new tooled Mk3a cosches in IC Executive livery with the silver window frames.  Think this combo of the new tooling with better coach ends roofing and glazing would be rather popular.  And after the usual discount not bad vslue at around £35 a pop to build a good rake.  From memory the last silver framed mk3 would have been a Lima HST version if you discount the latest IC Swallow version which I think is still aimed at HSTs not loco hauled 3a.Sleepers too....some of which were with white roofing.

 

Is a Mini-Buffet version of a Mk2 just too small to do in terms of them not being that widespread?   Think there were also calls a few years back for a BSO(T)......

On ml1s you could go IC Motorail or IC Charter (with white roof).

 

Hopefully the new 87s will be hitting the docks in China next month.

 

 

[toby_tl10]

9 hours ago, Ravenser said:

The Hattons / Hornby spat over the 66 was most instructive. You'd have expected Hattons to have laughed off the Hornby action as futile and absurd : after all the Hornby 66 isn't generally regarded as credible competition for the Bachmann 66 , which Hattons were setting themselves up to blow away with trhe "definitive" all singing all-dancing OO Class 66. Yet Hattons were outraged, as if this was a genuine commercial threat, and more to the point Hornby's production seems to have sold through without problems

Pretty sure that's not the case... If you think Hattons looked "outraged", that's probably TV drama effect (Which show was it? I forgot). Anyone with a bit of sense (inc Hattons) knows the Hattons 66 was competing with the Bachmann 66, and neither of the two were competing with the Hornby 66. It's just drama, it's not real.

[ThaneofFife]

Hmm just checked the website  the new 87s now expected Spring 2023.

:(

[TomScrut]

6 hours ago, big jim said:

yeah, I’m seeing those items, are they not previously announced, I’m not really up to speed on Hornby stuff?

 

It is all previously released items.

 

I hadn't realised they were doing all 3 ScotRail 153s though. What were they expecting people to run these with? They tend to run with 156s. The only ScotRail Saltire 156s done are very hard to come by, Hornby or Realtrack. Two of them did run together on driver training last year too but that wasn't the norm.

 

Were/are they planning another run of a Saltire 156, or were they expecting them to run around people's layouts on their own (unprototypically)?

 

A Bachmann 158 or 170 could be used with a bit of an imagination stretch but I aren't aware that they have run with either.

[gc4946]

7 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

It is all previously released items.

 

I hadn't realised they were doing all 3 ScotRail 153s though. What were they expecting people to run these with? They tend to run with 156s. The only ScotRail Saltire 156s done are very hard to come by, Hornby or Realtrack. Two of them did run together on driver training last year too but that wasn't the norm.

 

Were/are they planning another run of a Saltire 156, or were they expecting them to run around people's layouts on their own (unprototypically)?

 

A Bachmann 158 or 170 could be used with a bit of an imagination stretch but I aren't aware that they have run with either.

Customers could have pointed that out to Hornby so I won't be surprised a Saltire 156 will reappear next year.

Hornby's only done one production run in Saltire, R2950.

That carried the original logo with "Scotland's Railway" as a tagline, but current trains have that in English and Scots Gaelic.

[Pmorgancym]

59 minutes ago, toby_tl10 said:

Pretty sure that's not the case... If you think Hattons looked "outraged", that's probably TV drama effect (Which show was it? I forgot). Anyone with a bit of sense (inc Hattons) knows the Hattons 66 was competing with the Bachmann 66, and neither of the two were competing with the Hornby 66. It's just drama, it's not real.

Thought Hattons spat was with Bachmann, Hornby's arguement was with Rails over the Terrier wasn't it

[TomScrut]

31 minutes ago, gc4946 said:

Customers could have pointed that out to Hornby so I won't be surprised a Saltire 156 will reappear next year.

Hornby's only done one production run in Saltire, R2950.

That carried the original logo with "Scotland's Railway" as a tagline, but current trains have that in English and Scots Gaelic.

 

Yes, it's not quite the same livery but probably close enough for most. Beggars can't be choosers in that respect.

 

I just wonder how much thought they give to the stuff things run with. The Cappagh/DC 60 is another example of that. At least now Revolution are doing some JNAs to put with it, but at the time of announcement I don't think there was anything prototypical for them to pull. Maybe a lot of the market don't care about that sort of stuff.

 

That said, it has run with Railadventure barriers (just found this picture), but no 730 available to make the consist as photographed.

 

 

[TomScrut]

8 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

Thought Hattons spat was with Bachmann, Hornby's arguement was with Rails over the Terrier wasn't it

 

There was some "drama" at the range launch on one of the TV shows where Hattons were getting excited about the fact Hornby were doing loads of Railroad 66s when theirs was on the way.

 

It was the same show as when Rails were beefing with them over the Terrier

Edited December 30, 2022 by TomScrut

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, toby_tl10 said:

Pretty sure that's not the case... If you think Hattons looked "outraged", that's probably TV drama effect (Which show was it? I forgot). Anyone with a bit of sense (inc Hattons) knows the Hattons 66 was competing with the Bachmann 66, and neither of the two were competing with the Hornby 66. It's just drama, it's not real.

 

There's been a lot of noses looked down at the Hornby 66, but compared with Bachmann and Hattons, who's sold the most?

 

Not long to go now, I expect things will get a little overheated in here next week...

 

[TomScrut]

1 minute ago, Hroth said:

There's been a lot of noses looked down at the Hornby 66, but compared with Bachmann and Hattons, who's sold the most?

 

Probably Hornby, but most importantly they have probably made the most money doing so. I know some of the costs will be similar but given there's very few fitted parts I expect it costs a fraction to make compared to a Bachmann one, let alone Hattons.

[Dunsignalling]

41 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

There's been a lot of noses looked down at the Hornby 66, but compared with Bachmann and Hattons, who's sold the most?

 

Not long to go now, I expect things will get a little overheated in here next week...

 

That's surely only to be expected on a self-selecting modellers forum where most people are likely to be more interested in matters like detail and running qualities than is the case across Hornby's (supposedly less demanding) target market. 

 

Each is tailored to a different audience, and it's absolute sales that count, not relative popularity. That applies even to the producer of the "bargain basement" offering. Just as there are plenty of people who want to collect the greatest number of alternative liveries for the lowest outlay, there will be many others for whom a basic model with one-bogie drive just doesn't cut the mustard. 

 

The important thing for each producer is to shift enough to achieve the budgeted return, irrespective of how the others are faring. Even the "piggy-in-the-middle" (in this case, Bachmann) is likely to do OK, either through brand loyalty or there simply being enough potential customers for whom the alternatives are either inadequate or excessive, be that on price or specification!  

 

John

Edited December 30, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[TomScrut]

8 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Just as there are plenty of people who want to collect the greatest number of alternative liveries for the lowest outlay, there will be many others for whom a basic model with one-bogie drive just doesn't cut the mustard. 

 

Yep, I for one would rather pay twice the price for something that is twice as good, and have half as many of them. I run my trains and I can only run so many at a time anyway.

[Pmorgancym]

48 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

There's been a lot of noses looked down at the Hornby 66, but compared with Bachmann and Hattons, who's sold the most?

 

Not long to go now, I expect things will get a little overheated in here next week...

 

If Hornby had made 'Bread and Butter' 66s, that fitted the tooling they had, I think thier 66 woukd be seen as less of a joke, their approach of throwing every.livery that's sticks regardless puts it one about the coke and beatles stuff.

For me I bought the Hanson 59 a few months back and when you consider the price, it's not a bad model.  I'd take a wipac ews/fl/gbrf to match.

[Foden]

On 28/12/2022 at 17:38, adb968008 said:

The problem is the 31 has many liveries from the 1990’s.

Yet neither Hornby or Accurascale are touching them in high detailed models, its that same old Mainline, Dutch and Blue (albeit blue has taken a long time).

 

 

Bit unfair to tar Accurascale with that particular brush (no pun intended) on their first run though isn't it?

They're releasing no less than six different liveries, and differing variations of them too over a broad timescale of the prototype's life. Furthermore two of the most asked for examples, the aforementioned 31/5 and blue 31/4 are in the first run.

I've little doubt that by the second run, a good many more will be available too. Hornby have produced the higher spec 31 for what, 17 years? In that time we've never seen a Mainline livery, which is in the first of Accurascale's releases, never seen an EWS livery, and it took 16 of those years to see a dutch 31 that didn't crumble away at the floor, and even then it was wrong.

[Johan DC]

Seems to me that the 'joke' is selling well.

 

[Pmorgancym]

3 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

Seems to me that the 'joke' is selling well.

 

You can't deny the MSC one with the overall poorly applied printed decal was awful.