Old things that are still going, I mean apart from The Johnster…

[The Johnster]

Commenting the other day here somewhere about the Hornby, originally Triang, shorty clerestories, and it got me to wondering what the oldest model railway item still in production on it’s original form might be.  Locos and stock obviously but buildings, lineside accessories, and scenic items as well.  
 

Some of the current Dapol Kitmaster plastic kit locos, like the prairie and Biggin Hill, date from early in the original Kitmaster range, so must be getting on a bit.  The Triang ‘08’ Jinty-chassis diesel shunter was still being sold in train sets by Hornby only a few years ago and might re-appear in this form again; it first appeared in 1957, I think.  Some Peco products seem to have been around since god was in short trousers, and there is a lineside accessories pack in the current Hornby catalogue, mileposts, gradient posts, a ‘whistle’ sign, and platelayer’s & fogmen’s huts, that very closely resemble a pack I had with my first ever Black Princess set, xmas 1956.  
 

Any advance on these, anyone?

[SD85]

The Kitmaster toolings that ended up with Dapol are still holding up pretty well for 60 year old mouldings. There's also the former Airfix wagons and scenic items/kits too.

 

What about Superquick?

 

Loco wise the main one that comes to mind is the Hornby Dean Single which is an early 60s Triang moulding IIRC.

Edited December 19, 2022 by SD85

[BernardTPM]

Bilteezi. It is possible that there are still stocks of Hamblings lithos hanging around too (not sure what happened to those after The Engine Shed, Leytonstone closed, but they would still be old 'new' stock whereas at least some Bilteezi kits have had reprints.

The last use of the old Tri-ang diesel shunter was in the Thomas range as Devious Diesel. A new, but still inside framed, diesel shunter replaced it in 1976, initially with an automatic coupling device.

Most of the old Superquick models have been replaced with new designs, sometimes more than once, but the A10 Terminus station (1965) and B29 Church (1963) are still the original designs (possibly subtly altered).

[New Haven Neil]

I was surprised to find when stocking some Peco scenic items that they were the 'Merit' items from my childhood.

[SD85]

Peco scenic backscene sheets are another one.

[Steamport Southport]

I'm pretty sure there are things in the Ratio range that have their origins in the late 1950s or early 1960s. When did the Iron Mink first appear? I think that's the oldest still in production.

 

First plastic kits were apparently 1959.

 

https://peco-uk.com/pages/ratio#:~:text=Ratio Scale Models was started,changed to Ratio Plastic Models.

 

 

Jason

[BernardTPM]

4mm scale Slaters Huminiatures figures date from around 1950 and are still available.

[BernardTPM]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I'm pretty sure there are things in the Ratio range that have their origins in the late 1950s or early 1960s. When did the Iron Mink first appear? I think that's the oldest still in production.

First plastic kits were apparently 1959.

 

Their first wagon kit was a coke wagon (5 plank + 3 raves) reviewed in Jan.'60 RM, so must have been available in late 1959. The A2Z couplings were very like those in Airfix wagon kits, though I don't know if they were actually compatible. I agree the Iron Mink must be the oldest survivor in the range, now under the Parkside brand. Reviewed RM Dec. '61, so over 61 years old. Even a few of the Airfix wagons are newer!

 

[The Johnster]

We may have a winner!  72 years and still going strong, kudos Slater's.  I'd forgotten that Hornby's 'cod 08' had been retooled, an apparently pointless exercise because it still looks nothing like an 08 below the running plate.  Even when I was 6 years old I found this model unacceptable and a step too far for my disbelief suspension.  I was even then aware that my Black Princess was shortened, had never seen any real coaches that remotely resembled the shorty Rovex LMS coaches, Triang vans and wagons were the wrong colour, and that setrack curves were ridiculously sharp.  But HD and Trix tinplate stock had no relief detail, and was thus more toy-like to my mind despite the superbly realistic livery printing that was also seen on Hornby 0.

[D9020 Nimbus]

They're no longer in their original forms as they have new chassis, but some of the old Hornby Dublo SD6 wagon tooling is still in use at Dapol — some about 65 years old.

 

In N gauge, some of the tooling for Peco wagons dates back to 1967.

[Hibelroad]

I had a bit of a double take moment there, 1967, is that old ? I started modelling in 1967 and it seems like yesterday to me. 😁

[The Johnster]

The Hornby 16ton mineral body tooling, dating from the early Triang era,  must be getting on a bit as well, though like the Dapol HD/Wrenn inherited SD6 wagons the chassis has been reworked several times.  Not sure of dates, but I think the Triang version is older, pretty sure I've seen them on eBay with the original stamped tension-lock couplings.  1954-5?  It is overlength, as are HD/Wrenn/Dapol, Airfix RTR, and Lima 16tonners, because it uses a scale 10' wheelbase generic wagon chassis, and those companies' 7-plank minerals are also stretched to accommodate the generic 10' chassis.  Only Bachmann and Oxford get it right in RTR 4mm.

 

This is a particular problem with these wagons because they cannot easily be shortened by cut'n'shutting because of the diagonal side bracing.  I have cut'n'shut an Airfix 7-planker I was given (by a bloke up the pub) by trimming the planks ends 'outside' the strapping on the sides and the doors, resulting in a wagon very slightly overhanging the ends of the replacement 9'wheelbase chassis (Bachmann) and with narrow doors, very much a 'layout model' but one's attention is not overly drawn to it in service; heavy weathering helps!

 

A similar problem affects GPVs and salt wagons.  The Baccy RTR salt is ok, and a correct GPV has been produced by Rapido, but is currently listed as 'sold out'.

 

There are a good number of inherited wagon toolings that have survived into current production by RTR companies that are incorrect because of having to be stretched or compressed to fit generic chassis, and cattle wagons (along with Ale and Fruit Mex conversions of them) seem particularly prone, probably because many prototype cattle wagons used odd chassis lengths.  The Bachmann-inherited-from-Mainline and Dapol-inherited-from-HD/Wrenn come to mind.  Paradoxically, the Triang Southern Railway cattle wagon is, I'm told, not far off scale! 

 

The answer is kits of course, and we are lucky to have the Peco Parkside range and Dapol Kitmaster, which are easy enough to assemble and good runners if they are ballasted properly, but these are not in everybody's comfort zone, especially when it comes to painting and finishing of them. 

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, BernardTPM said:

 

Their first wagon kit was a coke wagon (5 plank + 3 raves) reviewed in Jan.'60 RM, so must have been available in late 1959. The A2Z couplings were very like those in Airfix wagon kits, though I don't know if they were actually compatible. I agree the Iron Mink must be the oldest survivor in the range, now under the Parkside brand. Reviewed RM Dec. '61, so over 61 years old. Even a few of the Airfix wagons are newer!

 

 

I don't think I've ever seen the coke wagon so it might have been discontinued before my time.

 

I did buy the GWR Open C Tube and NBR Cask wagons. ISTR the first of those I got was from the Festiniog Railway shop in the late 1970s and must have been amongst the first railway kits I bought that wasn't Airfix. Probably cost pennies!

 

Other old wagon kits still going are the Wills kits.

 

http://www.sefinecast.co.uk/Wagons/Wagons Page 1.htm

 

 

Jason

[D9020 Nimbus]

The Dapol GPVs are an example of ex-HD SD6 tooling.

 

Peco N gauge RTR wagons were all distorted were necessary to fit on either a 10’ or 15’ wheelbase chassis. This is particularly noticeable if you compare (say) the fish van with the Dapol equivalent, likewise the BR standard brake-van with the Farish one. They are re-doing these, starting with the 7- and 5-plank wagons.

[BernardTPM]

It was generally standard practice to shorten or lengthen to fit standard chassis back in the '50s to the '70s, even Hornby Dublo did sometimes (16t mineral and grain for example). The Peco 15' w.b. range started back in 1966 with a correct length 45t tank, very 'modern image' at the time. the grain wagon is also correct length and  surprisingly the plate wagon is very close to correct length, excepting that plates didn't have suspension/brake gear anything like the Peco chassis.

[Yarravalleymodeller]

Does it matter if the tooling is original? Because I'm quite sure a lot of these physical mould tools have been replaced over the years as they degrade. The Hornby GWR single was from memory(correct me please) entirely replaced at some point as have been the toolings of many a wagon kit, Ian kirk, the o gauge stuff, (memory again) even mentions this on the website or did as a reason for the temporary unavailablity of some kits. 

 

Likewise that Hornby 08, yes was still produced but heavily modified in terms of the chassis the motor etc etc. 

 

Long and short where do we draw the line to say it is still the same product? 

[41516]

5 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

I agree the Iron Mink must be the oldest survivor in the range, now under the Parkside brand. Reviewed RM Dec. '61, so over 61 years old. Even a few of the Airfix wagons are newer!

 

Incorrect I'm afraid gents.  The Ratio Iron Mink has been replaced once and isn't the '1500' series original. 

 

Original issue (1503) in grey and replacement/current kit (5063) below. 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by 41516
Better picture

[The Johnster]

So, padawan, you want rules, do you?  OK, just suggestions, though...

 

The form of the model should, IMHO, be the dominant factor on assessing what 'counts' and what doesn't, and, again, only IMHO, replacement of worn, lost, or damaged tooling with similar new tooling would enable the model to 'count' as being continously available in substantially unchanged form from it's initial introduction, including where upgraded chassis to new toolings have been provided.  For example, the Dapol Fruit D is substantially the same as the Hornby Dublo model, via Wrenn and some chassis improvements, NEM couplings and Dapol wheelsets; I'll leave you to decide if Dapol wheelsets are much of an improvement, but IMHO it 'counts'.   But the HD SD6 Fruit D was a full top-to-bottom end-to-end retool of the older HD tinlate HD, and therefore doesn't!  The Hornby cod 08 doesn't count because the bodyshelll was retooled to a different form when the autocoupler version came out.

 

Similarly the Hornby 16ton mineral is substantially the same model as the original Rovex, so it counts, but the 7-planker was completely replaced (retaining an incorrect generic chassis) in the late 70s or ealy 80s IIRC, so it isn't the same model in continuous form.  This gets complex and subjectively defined when the retoolings provide smaller changes; I would contend that, for example, the current production Bachmann 57xx and 56xx are sufficiently improved over the Mainline versions to count as different models, cab detail and other bodyshell improvements altering the 'form' sufficiently IMHO.  These Mainline derived locos are not contenders for oldest continuously produced model of course, but I'm referencing them as illustrative of the sort of difficulties the thread will throw up.

 

Then there is the issue of models re-introduced after becoming unavailable, like the Hornby LOTI and shorty clerestories or, also Hornby, the Airfix 61xx, 14xx, A30 auto-trailer, or B-set.  Many mainstream RTR models are going in and out of production and availability due to the 'just in time' nature of specific-numbers-ordered Chinese production.  Where does one draw the line in this matter, when we know that the items currently not in  the catalogues will re-appear with at the most minor changes when production slots become available? 

 

I'd tend to give such models the benefit of the doubt, with a cut off of, say, 10 years out of production breaks the continuity.  LOTI and the shorties are disbarred by this rule, but the 2721 isn't, yet.  Hornby have form in producing (by which I probably mean digging out of the back of the warehouse) items no longer made for department store and mail order catalogue contracts, so their catalogue is not a reliable guide...

 

 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, 41516 said:

 

Incorrect I'm afraid gents.  The Ratio Iron Mink has been replaced once and isn't the '1500' series original. 

 

Original issue in grey and replacement/current kit below. 

 

 

 

 

I agree; the solid floor and improvement to the ventilators disbars it on continuity grounds.

[41516]

5 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

I agree; the solid floor and improvement to the ventilators disbars it on continuity grounds.

 

It's a entirely different kit, top to bottom.  No common items between the two.

 

Edit -  They're not even the same shape!

Edited December 19, 2022 by 41516

[The Johnster]

Then at least one of them is wrong...

 

To quote Mark Knopfler, 'Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong'!

[TheSignalEngineer]

The first of the Airfix kits railway kits were the Trackside series which came out in 1957 continuing to the Turntable in 1963. 

Rolling stock started in 1960 with the Esso Tank and Railbus, followed i 1961 by the Mineral wagon, Cattle truck, Presflo and Brake Van.1962-64 saw the Meat Van. Scammel Mechanical Horse, Interfrigo van, Lowmac, Drewry Shunter and Prestwin in roughly that order.

The Kitmaster range was taken over by Airfix in 1962. The catalogues originally had about 23 locos although I think only 20 ever made it out of the door, the Blue Pullman and some Mk1 coaches in both maroon and green for 00 plus a Rebuilt Scot with four Mk1s which were shown in maroon or green in TT (not sure if all ever appeared beyond the catalogue). There was a motorised 12T Van for 00 and motor bogies for the BSK shown in both 00 and TT ranges,

Only 9 of the locos resurfaced in 00 and nothing in TT.

Dapol bought the Airfix tooling c1984.

 

I recently built a Dapol Lowmac it. There was a note with the instructions apologising for the quality not being to modern standards as it was made from the original tooling (1963?). 

Edited December 31, 2022 by TheSignalEngineer

[96701]

Stuff that is in a 10 quid Rainbow Railways box.

[BernardTPM]

Looking at the ex-Ratio 'Parkside' range the earliest kits still made would be these:

PC562 GWR Macaw G (Bogie Bolster A)  diamond frame bogies now, originally supplied with plate frame

PC571 LMS/CR Iron Ore

Both reviewed in RM Sept.'69

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

'Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong'!

The other plays for Arsenal.