Formula 1 2023

[LNERandBR]

I niticed that on the corners where track limits were an issue the curbs were wider then the cars. Inviting drivers to go wider.

 

Therefore, why not mandate that no curb should be wider then a cars width. Then it encourages drivers to keep within track limits.

 

However, I personally think grass on the outside of the track is a better option. That stops all the issues.

[Reorte]

11 hours ago, LNERandBR said:

However, I personally think grass on the outside of the track is a better option. That stops all the issues.

I believe the tarmac is there because with that then going wide just means going wide, whereas with grass there's quite a chance of an accident.

[Pete the Elaner]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

I believe the tarmac is there because with that then going wide just means going wide, whereas with grass there's quite a chance of an accident.

 

With accidents in mind, it is important to consider that track are more frequently used for other events: Motorcycle racing in particular; bikes don't just spin on grass, they throw riders off, which is far more likely to cause injury.

They are often used for track days too, where owners of road cars can drive them fast & learn how to control them when things go wrong. They don't want to end up going home with a crashed car if it can be avoided with a run-off area.

[Oldddudders]

46 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

With accidents in mind, it is important to consider that track are more frequently used for other events:

So the circuit owners need to decide which business they are in. Are they there to provide a facility for all the other forms of motorsport you list, or are they there to gain prestige from the orange army? I wonder which brings in more money, year on year. 

[newbryford]

53 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

With accidents in mind, it is important to consider that track are more frequently used for other events: Motorcycle racing in particular; bikes don't just spin on grass, they throw riders off, which is far more likely to cause injury.

They are often used for track days too, where owners of road cars can drive them fast & learn how to control them when things go wrong. They don't want to end up going home with a crashed car if it can be avoided with a run-off area.

 

3 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

So the circuit owners need to decide which business they are in. Are they there to provide a facility for all the other forms of motorsport you list, or are they there to gain prestige from the orange army? I wonder which brings in more money, year on year. 

 

 

Maybe use an option like this?: Raise them when a driver that is misusing track limits.

 

[Reorte]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

So the circuit owners need to decide which business they are in. Are they there to provide a facility for all the other forms of motorsport you list, or are they there to gain prestige from the orange army? I wonder which brings in more money, year on year. 

Doubt many circuits can survive just catering for one, they need a broad brush of events and event types to be successful. This inevitably means some competing demands, especially the higher up the levels you go where the demands get stricter. So you do find plenty of grass runoff at places like Cadwell Park, rather less at Silverstone.

[PhilJ W]

Expensive...

 

[Pete the Elaner]

4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

So the circuit owners need to decide which business they are in. Are they there to provide a facility for all the other forms of motorsport you list, or are they there to gain prestige from the orange army? I wonder which brings in more money, year on year. 

 

I did a track day at Silverstone about 15 years ago. I was told by the staff that even then, the cost of holding the British GP was £21m a year. This will be a lot more now. They only make a fraction of this back from the GP itself, even after including hospitality. The FIA are also very demanding regarding the quality of facilities. The only way to afford this was to keep the circuit in use as much as possible for track days, other racing formula & other events.

It works both ways though; part of doing a track day at attraction of Silverstone is to drive around the F1 circuit.

There are some exceptions like Monaco, which attracts an enormous amount more in advertising than anywhere else so comparisons with that circuit for things like pit facilities are not equivalent.

 

So while many consider tracks existing for F1 events, they need to be supported all year round by others.

[SteveM666]

Many races around the world are subsidised by national or local governments for various reasons from promoting tourism to ‘sports washing’. Silverstone gets no support outside what they can raise from tickets, advertising and extracurricular activities.

Its one reason why tickets are so expensive for the British GP. Just as a comparison a general admission ticket for Friday practice last year at Silverstone was £140 yet the same ticket for the full three days at Barcelona was €140 - and that could be reduced by 50% if bought early with a pensioner discount.

Guess which one gets local authority financial support.

Edited July 4, 2023 by SteveM666

[didcot]

My eldest and his girlfriend have weekend tickets for Silverstone. It's very expensive. 

Last year they were able to go Thursday free of charge and we saw them on the F1 Show.

This year they are charging I believe, but they entered a draw for free tickets and managed to get them.

A friend was trying to book tickets and they could see the prices rising as they progressed in the online queue. By the time he got to buy the tickets they had risen so much he didn't bother. Its called dynamic pricing I believe, price increases with demand.

[57xx]

On 03/07/2023 at 21:21, Steadfast said:

Here's a thought I've just had, if the "desire line" of a flat out car is 6ft or whatever wider, make the track that much wider between 9 and 10. 

 

 

Cars don't have to take every corner flat out though, that's the whole point of circuit design. As people have said, a racer should be able to drive within the proscribed circuit identified by the white lines at the edges.

Taking the "desired line" through all corners philosophy to the extreme and we'll just end up with circular tracks and no skill.

[57xx]

On 03/07/2023 at 11:57, Pete the Elaner said:

In speedway, riders are not allowed both wheels over the white line marking the inside of the track. They know full well they will be disqualified for doing so (or excluded as it used to be known in that sport), which is why it happens so rarely.

 

Similarly in drag racing, if you touch any part of the centre line, you are disqualified.

[Steadfast]

5 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

Cars don't have to take every corner flat out though, that's the whole point of circuit design. As people have said, a racer should be able to drive within the proscribed circuit identified by the white lines at the edges.

Taking the "desired line" through all corners philosophy to the extreme and we'll just end up with circular tracks and no skill.

Well, quite, however as cars get wider and heavier and visibility ever poorer, are we now at a point where track width needs to be considered in relation to the width of the cars, so they can be driven hard and put on the spectacle of being the supposed pinnacle of world motorsport? Driving at 11 tenths will lead to mistakes, passing opportunities, and inevitably action, whereas slowing down to stay on the track because the car's too fat removes that edge.

 

I can't see much changing for next year sadly, especially as Red Bull have just signed the ring up to host the Austrian GP until 2030, so there's no leverage on the behalf of FIA or the promoters to encourage Red Bull to splash the cash and fix it.

 

Jo

[Pete the Elaner]

32 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

Well, quite, however as cars get wider and heavier and visibility ever poorer, are we now at a point where track width needs to be considered in relation to the width of the cars, so they can be driven hard and put on the spectacle of being the supposed pinnacle of world motorsport? Driving at 11 tenths will lead to mistakes, passing opportunities, and inevitably action, whereas slowing down to stay on the track because the car's too fat removes that edge.

 

 

If drivers are unable to see well enough to position their cars correctly, the car design is flawed.

It is is quicker to go off & accept the penalties for doing so, then the penalties are not tough enough.

[Steadfast]

6 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

If drivers are unable to see well enough to position their cars correctly, the car design is flawed.

It is is quicker to go off & accept the penalties for doing so, then the penalties are not tough enough.

Absolutely right on both counts. Several times this year and last there's been comments about cockpit visibility. 

As for unfit penalties, don't start me...

 

Jo

[Geep7]

I think that in BTCC now, penalties are given if any part of the car goes outside of the white line. Would this work any better in F1? Is it any different?

 

With Austria Turn's 9 and 10 and a tendency for, what felt like, most drivers to end up going outside the line, does the layout of the track need to be looked at? Or should they just leave it up to the drivers to just drive better? The problem with the track limits in F1, yet again, is consistency in the rules being applied. If they were to apply the track limits rule to every part of every track across the whole season, the drivers would soon stop doing it.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Geep7

[Pete the Elaner]

5 hours ago, Steadfast said:

Absolutely right on both counts. Several times this year and last there's been comments about cockpit visibility. 

As for unfit penalties, don't start me...

 

Jo

 

Penalties are supposed to be a deterrent. If track limit penalties were tough enough to act as a deterrent, drivers wouldn't push their luck & the finishing order would be just that, with no post-race penalties.

 

A 5 second penalty at the end of the race is not the same as one served in the race either. I like the idea of a penalty loop which should be driven round within 1 or 2 laps of the penalty being served. We would then see a true finish & cars/drivers would no longer be falsely clear of any mid-field battles. The RD & stewards would have to be faster in serving them though.

[Reorte]

19 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Penalties are supposed to be a deterrent. If track limit penalties were tough enough to act as a deterrent, drivers wouldn't push their luck & the finishing order would be just that, with no post-race penalties.

Drivers would still push their luck in the sense that they'd try to get as close to them as possible, and in doing so occasionally go over. They wouldn't blatantly ignore them though.

 

Although Paul Ricard looks absolutely hideous the concept (if not the reality) there is OK - going over adds significantly to tyre wear due to the high abrasive off-circuit surface, without posing the risk of losing control. That alone though wouldn't stop someone using it and accepting the wear if they only had a lap or so to go.

[newbryford]

F1 back to China in 2024 - schedule is out.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/66113180

 

If they want to become more eco - then drop the Canadian GP if they won't move the date.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by newbryford

[SteveM666]

And, as expected, the first race in Bahrain means no european pre-season testing again.The sport is less accessible than ever.

[57xx]

8 hours ago, Steadfast said:

Well, quite, however as cars get wider and heavier and visibility ever poorer, are we now at a point where track width needs to be considered in relation to the width of the cars, so they can be driven hard and put on the spectacle of being the supposed pinnacle of world motorsport? Driving at 11 tenths will lead to mistakes, passing opportunities, and inevitably action, whereas slowing down to stay on the track because the car's too fat removes that edge.

 

Ah, the cars are too wide theory? They managed just fine back in the 1970-90's when the cars were wider than they are now.

 

I think it is more a combination of drivers taking liberties knowing they can get away with it and bad track design (massive expanses of runoff)

[IWCR]

White  Line  as  is,  permanently  installed  Stingers  1  car  width  outside  of  the  line,  sorted.

 

Pete

[Darius43]

1 hour ago, IWCR said:

White  Line  as  is,  permanently  installed  Stingers  1  car  width  outside  of  the  line,  sorted.

 

Pete

Looks like we’re back in Death Race 2000 territory once more…

 

Darius

[SteveM666]

6 hours ago, SteveM666 said:

And, as expected, the first race in Bahrain means no european pre-season testing again.The sport is less accessible than ever.

This really p’s me off to be honest.

I’ve been going out to Portimao, Jerez and Barcelona for pre-season testing for the past 15 years in addition to in-season testing at Silverstone and Brands Hatch but the FIA gave in to the Bahraini chequebook and took testing away from Barcelona.

Those european destinations made the sport so much more accessible to the real fans at a reasonable price. I regularly got a week’s holiday on the Costa Brava with a couple of full days at the track for less than a single race weekend ticket at Silverstone. 

The best I managed was in the days of cheap Ryanair flights - flew out Tuesday afternoon, Wednesday at the track, last flight home Wednesday - 30 hours door to door. Flight £19.99, car hire £18, hotel £20, track entry €15)

[Jol Wilkinson]

It seems like the almighty $, Liberty's overwhelming priority , wins again. More races, especially in the rich nations who want to do some sports washing, to increase Liberty's income.

 

The summer break was introduced to give team staff a much needed rest in what was already a busy calendar., but that has been eroded by the lust for more races and income. 

 

Add to this the unending failure of the FIA to manage the sporting aspect of F1, explains my increasing disillusion and disinterest in the sport. It is just becoming entertainment for those who want crashes, trumped up drama and have only a short term interest. It is rather summed up by the Orange Army.