Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Grovenor]

Hornby themselves on the website suggest that you check that the app works on your phone/tablet before buying the decoders and I certainly intend to follow that advice. The release date is presumably the date the app will be released as if not then they could release the decoders now.

[Legend]

11 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

The Hornby sound works but the quality can be affected by the freq of PWM. Anyone with an HM6K module can demonstrate it themselves as the PWM freq is adjustable.

If you use a DC controller then you are limited to running one analogue loco per controller channel as usual plus bluetooth decoders but only whilst you have power up. I can’t see the point of powering through an analogue controller except to save disconnecting wires, which could be switched through anyhow.

There can’t be many more nits to pick on this subject.

 

Exactly the point . Can run my existing locos or a blue tooth sound equipped loco using my phone  without the need to disconnect wires . I don't think that's nit picking , I think its functionality .

[PeterStiles]

Just now, Legend said:

my existing locos or a blue tooth sound equipped loco using my phone  without the need to disconnect wires

Reading ancient copies of RM in the archives, looking back at the times where people built their own controllers from army surplus bits and bobs, or even drew up ideas for PWM circuits for people to solder up at home... I feel you may not have enjoyed that period of railway modelling...

[Legend]

1 minute ago, PeterStiles said:

Reading ancient copies of RM in the archives, looking back at the times where people built their own controllers from army surplus bits and bobs, or even drew up ideas for PWM circuits for people to solder up at home... I feel you may not have enjoyed that period of railway modelling...

 Lol . yeah good point . They clearly cant say it will work on everything , but it will be interesting to see if it works on a Gaugemaster controller like the one Jenny used on the Blunami video. I would have though Gaugemaster would be the leading brand used by DC people . 

[RAF96]

Riddle me this - when you whack up the controller to 12v max on your analogue layout what do the locos do. Nothing? Then why not power the track direct using a by-pass switch and get the full PSU onto the rails.

If your loco(s) move then they will move when operating bluetooth decoders.

Any decoder needs to have a threshold voltage to boot up. The bluetooth decoder then has to find and connect to the mesh network. When you throttle back below that threshold the decoder effectively powers down and drops off the network until throttled back up again. That makes powering your bluetooth decoder a bit hit and miss especially if it is sound.

I am not commenting further as it is pointless.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I looks to me that there's some misunderstanding about the prime objectives and who will be the beneficiaries of this technology.

It's not there to provide sound on DC, as such.

 

The prime benefit is to allow newbies and DC users, to go DCC and have the benefits of DCC, without the expense of having to purchase an expensive DCC system, possibly will various ancillaries and add-ons.

All you need is a suitable power supply....and the new DCC system is a FREE app.

 

The 2nd benefit, is to allow existing DCC users, to take advantage of the wireless technology and still be able to use their existing decoders.

The compatibility is 2-way, as the Bluetooth enabled decoders are primarily DCC decoders and will work normally on regular, traditional DCC.

 

The ability of DC users to use the Bluetooth system on their DC operated layouts, could be considered a side benefit.

Of course this option comes with caveats.

Many DC controllers will be marginal in having sufficient power output, even on full whack, to take full use of running more than one fitted loco.

Some DC controllers will be underpowered or not be suitable at all.

You can't run your DC locos alongside the Bluetooth locos operating on full power.

12v is marginal, but within the spec.  15v is the nominal voltage.

 

Suitable 15v 4 amp power supplies can be bought for much less than the one being offered by Hornby.

There should be no hardship in using one of these and if necessary, installing some sort of switching arrangement.

 

.

[teeinox]

So far I have stuck to DC and avoided DCC because it seems complicated, needs special kit and for what is a software-driven system, appears a bit dated.  So I found the Hornby offer attractive because it is based on common, mainstream computing technology with which I am already familiar. But there are a couple of things that concern me.

 

My H&M Safety Minor still works after 50 years because the environment in which it operates has not changed.  Software is not like that.  The platforms that Hornby’s software uses, Android or Apple iOS, change and Android, in particular, changes often.  The Android operating system is only security supported for the latest 3-4 editions.  Given the release rate, that is about 4-6 years.  So, writers of apps face a maintenance treadmill.  And that can be expensive: software engineers do not come cheap.  My understanding is that the software is intended to be free.  Is that really sustainable on the back of a one-time purchase of the hardware?   Or down the line, might Hornby be tempted to charge for software upgrades?

 

The other question is app interoperability.  Out of my 13 candidates for equipping with DCC, just 2 are from Hornby.  I might take the plunge with Hornby to test the concept.  But I certainly do not want to land up in a situation where I have to have another app for Dapol, another for Bachmann, and yet another from a third party for those locomotives which are not from any current big manufacturer.  Resolving that is a matter of standards, and I don’t know whether this is an area in which, NMRA, for instance, is active.  Or is it all too new?

[JohnR]

3 minutes ago, teeinox said:

So far I have stuck to DC and avoided DCC because it seems complicated, needs special kit and for what is a software-driven system, appears a bit dated.  So I found the Hornby offer attractive because it is based on common, mainstream computing technology with which I am already familiar. But there are a couple of things that concern me.

 

My H&M Safety Minor still works after 50 years because the environment in which it operates has not changed.  Software is not like that.  The platforms that Hornby’s software uses, Android or Apple iOS, change and Android, in particular, changes often.  The Android operating system is only security supported for the latest 3-4 editions.  Given the release rate, that is about 4-6 years.  So, writers of apps face a maintenance treadmill.  And that can be expensive: software engineers do not come cheap.  My understanding is that the software is intended to be free.  Is that really sustainable on the back of a one-time purchase of the hardware?   Or down the line, might Hornby be tempted to charge for software upgrades?

 

The other question is app interoperability.  Out of my 13 candidates for equipping with DCC, just 2 are from Hornby.  I might take the plunge with Hornby to test the concept.  But I certainly do not want to land up in a situation where I have to have another app for Dapol, another for Bachmann, and yet another from a third party for those locomotives which are not from any current big manufacturer.  Resolving that is a matter of standards, and I don’t know whether this is an area in which, NMRA, for instance, is active.  Or is it all too new?

 

I agree that there is the possibility that Hornby may at some point stop supporting the app. However, it is likely to still work, albeit bugs may not be fixed. Generally speaking, I've found that quite "old" software will still work on newer editions of Android.  Theres also nothing stopping you keeping that "old" phone handset to run that "old" software.

 

Your other question about interoperability is easily answered. The decoder from Hornby will fit in, and work with any make of locomotive - just as ANY DCC decoder from ANY manufacturer will (or should) work with ANY make of locomotive. They all conform to the NMRA standards.  You wont need to buy a Dapol Bluetooth decoder to work in that Dapol locomotive. There are some unknowns about the sound versions of these decoders - will Hornby release sound files for locomotives they dont make? Don't know, and unlikely. Will it be possible to load up another sound file from another source (the wider community? Another supplier?) Again at this stage we dont know - but its not impossible. 

 

The advent of Bluetooth decoders feels to me like a real game changer. It opens up the possibility of DCC control to a much wider audience, allowing people to test the water without a massive investment. Just buy a decoder, pop it into your loco and crank up your DC controller to max. If at any point you want to go back, you just remove the decoder, fit the blanking plug and you're back on regular DC. You could probably sell on the decoder and get most of your money back. 

[Pmorgancym]

On 27/02/2023 at 22:00, Ron Ron Ron said:

I looks to me that there's some misunderstanding about the prime objectives and who will be the beneficiaries of this technology.

It's not there to provide sound on DC, as such.

 

The prime benefit is to allow newbies and DC users, to go DCC and have the benefits of DCC, without the expense of having to purchase an expensive DCC system, possibly will various ancillaries and add-ons.

All you need is a suitable power supply....and the new DCC system is a FREE app.

 

The 2nd benefit, is to allow existing DCC users, to take advantage of the wireless technology and still be able to use their existing decoders.

The compatibility is 2-way, as the Bluetooth enabled decoders are primarily DCC decoders and will work normally on regular, traditional DCC.

 

The ability of DC users to use the Bluetooth system on their DC operated layouts, could be considered a side benefit.

Of course this option comes with caveats.

Many DC controllers will be marginal in having sufficient power output, even on full whack, to take full use of running more than one fitted loco.

Some DC controllers will be underpowered or not be suitable at all.

You can't run your DC locos alongside the Bluetooth locos operating on full power.

12v is marginal, but within the spec.  15v is the nominal voltage.

 

Suitable 15v 4 amp power supplies can be bought for much less than the one being offered by Hornby.

There should be no hardship in using one of these and if necessary, installing some sort of switching arrangement.

 

.

I suppose the advantage is it's a relative cheap way into DCC were someone with a DdC layout can buy into DCC with sound for one 'treat loco' to have a play with before committing.

[Legend]

46 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

I suppose the advantage is it's a relative cheap way into DCC were someone with a DC layout can buy into DCC with sound for one 'treat loco' to have a play with before committing.

 

Exactly ! Clearly RAF96 doesn't get it, a way to run the occasional sound loco.

 

I'm not interested in going DCC for a whole host of reasons . However were this a way to control a sound loco relatively inexpensively  then I might try it for one or two locos.

 

As he didn't quote me in his response I didn't see RAF96s somewhat brusque reply . When I whack up my controller to 12 v DC my other locos will do nothing because they are isolated in their sidings . By whacking it up to 12v DC and using the app I could perhaps control the sound fitted loco(it seems I can on Blunami) . When I'm finished I'll park it up on a siding , then use my analogue controller to run whatever DC loco I fancy next fully controllable on analogue . Clearly having a PSU connected to the line continuously without a controller I can't run any of the other analogue locos , they would all need top be chipped . Thats the difference.

 

I fully appreciate that this is a system that will get people into DCC and thats its main purpose . However it could also be used by analogue users who fancy running the occasional sound loco and could therefor introduce a new dimension into DC . It blurs the somewhat binary distinction DC or DCC.  Jenny got it  and has explained the Blunami chip will work by turning the voltage full up on the Gaugemaster Controller she used . I will wait to see if Hornby can achieve the same. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Legend

[RAF96]

Try it using your DC controller by all means, but be aware of PWM frequency effects that may induce quality problems with sound decoders. The loco will sit happily on a DC track whilst you play with other locos, but will power down and reboot as your controller speed adjustments move other locos about.

[Ron Ron Ron]

23 hours ago, Legend said:

 

…….I fully appreciate that this is a system that will get people into DCC and thats its main purpose . However it could also be used by analogue users who fancy running the occasional sound loco and could therefor introduce a new dimension into DC . It blurs the somewhat binary distinction DC or DCC. ……

Again, allowing analogue users to run the occasional sound loco, should probably be considered a “side benefit”, that won’t be available to all, due to the type of DC controller being used, or whether the DC controller has sufficient Umph!

Also bear in mind that optimally it requires a 15v clean DC supply with sufficient amperage rating ( the Umph!).

Semantics maybe, but this isn’t a “new dimension to DC”, but rather an easier way of using DCC.

It doesn’t blur any distinction between DC and DCC.
It’s still remains either or, just that the underlying motive power source can be delivered in different forms (including DC, but not with DC control).

 

 

.

 

[RedgateModels]

[PeterStiles]

Mee Too!!

Great news! Your HM7000-8TXS: Bluetooth® & DCC Sound Decoder (8-pin) pre-order has arrived at our warehouse and will shortly be prepared for dispatch.

Now, where's the app?

[Grovenor]

Coming soon!

https://uk.Hornby.com/hm7000

[PeterStiles]

23 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Coming soon!

https://uk.Hornby.com/hm7000

Strange thing... You'd never guess but I looked there.

 

*and* I also checked the Play Store...

 

 

[meatloaf]

slightly annoying that a £64.99 order qualifies for free post but as soon as i apply my reward points it knocks £21.15 off then adds on postage of £3.95

[Johan DC]

If you scan the QR code in the catalogue, it Brings you to the HM DC app.... 🙃

[spamcan61]

32 minutes ago, meatloaf said:

slightly annoying that a £64.99 order qualifies for free post but as soon as i apply my reward points it knocks £21.15 off then adds on postage of £3.95

I'd not use all the reward points at once then - assuming that's feasible. For a company that's trying to push all sales to their web site they're shopping "app" isn't very clever 

[Hroth]

Odd that the app for a product that is imminently available and requires the app for full functionality isn't also available in the Android app store so potential buyers can verify that their phone/tablet is compatible with the app.

 

[Creampot Junction]

4 hours ago, meatloaf said:

slightly annoying that a £64.99 order qualifies for free post but as soon as i apply my reward points it knocks £21.15 off then adds on postage of £3.95

That's because the order has to be over £50 to qualify for Free P&P. Which it does with the original price, before you used your rewards points.  The Rewards points looks like it works as coupon, which obviously knocks the order below the £50. Which is why you have been charged for P&P.

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Coming soon!

https://uk.Hornby.com/hm7000

Hattons sent me an e-mail this morning to that effect.

 

[Creampot Junction]

The TXS sound versions are now all in stock. So I would expect the app to be released in the next few days. Cant wait for mine to arrive and explore what this new system has to offer. 

[meatloaf]

Well i ended up ordering an 8 pin TXS decoder and a railroad 37 to have a play with it in. Cant wait to hear all the different sound files on offer. Hopefully theres enough room in an 08 to fit the decoder and the speaker.

 

Looking forward to seeing what it has to offer over TTS. 

 

 

[JohnR]

10 hours ago, meatloaf said:

Well i ended up ordering an 8 pin TXS decoder and a railroad 37 to have a play with it in. Cant wait to hear all the different sound files on offer. Hopefully theres enough room in an 08 to fit the decoder and the speaker.

 

Looking forward to seeing what it has to offer over TTS. 

 

 

 

I hope theres enough room in the 08 for the power pack too!