Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Bob83a]

2 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

Just watching one of Hornby's YouTube video and a few things struct me, no mention of Bluetooth accessory decoders? 

But the main one was a question about sounds for the international range, which was answered with 'well in due time, there's just me as the sound guy'.  Surely that has to show they there's an opportunity for partnership(s) with 3rd party sound producers to cover their lack of capacity and also potentially produce non Bornby sound projects.

If the video you were looking at is the q&a that took place this week then there was a section where they demonstrated an HM6010 to control points from the HM7000 app.

[RAF96]

16 minutes ago, Bob83a said:

If the video you were looking at is the q&a that took place this week then there was a section where they demonstrated an HM6010 to control points from the HM7000 app.

There is an HM7010 listed and described as a single BT and DCC accessory decoder. This may be a trackside clip in device to garner power for operation. Meantime as stated there is the HM6010 which when updated to the latest version will operate on DCC the same as an R8247 v2.0. From the app you only get the basic operational functions, solenoid points, signal/light or turntable. Once the app has developed a tad a UI screen will be provided to access the v2.0 advanced features.

[Pmorgancym]

29 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

There is an HM7010 listed and described as a single BT and DCC accessory decoder. This may be a trackside clip in device to garner power for operation. Meantime as stated there is the HM6010 which when updated to the latest version will operate on DCC the same as an R8247 v2.0. From the app you only get the basic operational functions, solenoid points, signal/light or turntable. Once the app has developed a tad a UI screen will be provided to access the v2.0 advanced features.

Didn't get a chance to watch fully dipped in and out between dealing with kids

[Ron Ron Ron]

It might be useful if Bluetooth could be added to existing point motors, like the Cobalt iP Digital.

Presumably the manufacturer would have to work with Hornby to use whatever the HM DCC communication protocol is?

 

Somehow I can’t see Hornby cooperating with 3rd party vendors, whether it’s with DCC accessories, like point motors, or with sound files.

 

 

.

[Buhar]

The crunch issue for me is size of these decoders.  Above there is an indication that smaller components especially the antenna were in short supply recently which is understandable.  I don't mind using harnesses to get the decoder somewhere else in the model but these are big units.  Small tank engine, decoder, speaker and stay alive; not a promising mix at the moment.  Any educated guesses (@Ron Ron Ron) about how much smaller things might get?

 

Alan

[Pmorgancym]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

It might be useful if Bluetooth could be added to existing point motors, like the Cobalt iP Digital.

Presumably the manufacturer would have to work with Hornby to use whatever the HM DCC communication protocol is?

 

Somehow I can’t see Hornby cooperating with 3rd party vendors, whether it’s with DCC accessories, like point motors, or with sound files.

 

 

.

Thats the sad thing really for this to really work thats exactly what is needed.  Pretending that other manufacturers don't exist or that people only buy stuff in red boxes isn't going to work long term, maybe establish HM as a seperate brand within the group.

[JSpencer]

Upsides:

• cheap
• can run on classic DCC or Bluetooth
• uses DC and DCC power supply
• Choice of loco classes to choose from, from app which can be changed
• plug in speaker and power pack

 

down sides:

• big chips
• limited to Hornby's sound files
• may have limits on non Hornby speakers
• may have limits on non Hornby power packs

 

 

[Buhar]

On 31/03/2023 at 19:13, Ron Ron Ron said:

Alternatively, you could run the HM7000 decoders using Bluetooth, whilst simultaneously controlling other non-Bluetooth DCC decoder equipped locos with the PowerCab.

This might have to be the answer for small locos at least pro tem unless hardwiring is an option.  The hobby having spent years getting motors out of cabs is now faced with stuffing electronics in there.🥴

 

Alan

[NFWEM57]

So many questions left unanswered just for DCC use...

• Sound Quality, never very good with Hornby - Only 3 sound channels vs 10 for LokSound et al
• Ability to use 3rd Party Sound?
• Decoder firmware upgrades?
• Limited CV range or a full set?
• Blue tooth security?
• Automation, iTrains et al?
• 3rd party Decoders allowed, if they emerge, or an Apple approach to prevent competition?
• No NMRA standard yet for Bluetooth so other manufacturers may develop alternative solutions which are backward compatible  (ESU, et al).  The next ESU ECoS might be DCC and Bluetooth using a common interface allowing a user to mix decoder types.  Will the Hornby system be NMRA compliant when a standard is published?

As with any company, profit is the primary driver and I imagine Hornby will wish to limit or block 3rd party developers from providing products for the system.   As with so many products, the first to market may not be the best or the best thought through.  Be interesting to see what the more adept decoder manufacturers come up with.

 

To me, this is the decoder equivalent of TT120, an attempt to lock a user into a range.  I recently cancelled my long outstanding pre orders for 2 Hornby OO products as production of TT120 products has been prioritised over OO products.

 

Patrick

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

5 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

............

No NMRA standard yet for Bluetooth so other manufacturers may develop alternative solutions which are backward compatible  (ESU, et al).  The next ESU ECoS might be DCC and Bluetooth using a common interface allowing a user to mix decoder types.  Will the Hornby system be NMRA compliant when a standard is published?

 

As with any company, profit is the primary driver and I imagine Hornby will wish to limit or block 3rd party developers from providing products for the system.   As with so many products, the first to market may not be the best or the best thought through.  Be interesting to see what the more adept decoder manufacturers come up with........

 

 

As much as this move by Hornby is a very welcome development and progression, these questions are the nub of the matter.

 

The same questions were raised with BlueRail Trains' introduction of this same technology, 6 or 7 years ago and with their more recent joint venture with SoundTraxx (Blunami).

 

In the USA, Ring Engineering introduced their advanced RailPro digital system some 12 years ago.

RailPro was years more advanced than DCC, using more modern high speed, 2-way wireless data communication and an intuitive graphical user interface.

Technology and user wise, it was a large step forward, but the initial limited compatibility with DCC (improved later on) and the decision to lock-in the system (no 3rd party products, control of sound files etc), have  meant that RailPro remains a wonderful, but niche product.

 

Hornby would appear a first glance to be in danger of treading the same path.

To do so will limit the development and widespread adoption of their version of direct DCC, or whatever the generic term should be for direct radio (note there are already Bluetooth, WiFi and ZigBee versions of this sort of system in the marketplace).

That does open up the potential for rivals to step in with a universal, open alternative and the danger that Hornby will be left with an incompatible, niche product.

 

 

p.s. I received my first 2 HM7000 decoders on Saturday and can't wait to try it out.

 

.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[JohnR]

19 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

Just watching one of Hornby's YouTube video and a few things struct me, no mention of Bluetooth accessory decoders? 

 

 

HM6010 Accessory units can be driven from the HM7000 app. These will drive point motors etc. 

[Porfuera]

3 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

To me, this is the decoder equivalent of TT120, an attempt to lock a user into a range.

 

Apologies in advance for the risk of going off-topic...

 

I don't think your comparison with TT:120 is valid - this just seems like an attempt to paint Hornby in a bad light. TT:120 is just a scale/gauge and there are plenty of continental manufacturers out there already making TT:120. Unlike HM7000, TT:120 is not Hornby's proprietary system nor do Hornby have the rights to TT:120 and they can't prevent other manufacturers from making UK outline TT:120.

 

3 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

production of TT120 products has been prioritised over OO products.

 

Where did you hear this?

 

I don't think people on the TT:120 thread would agree - delivery dates there appear to be slipping week on week. If items are not turning up in 00 I would say this is more to do with the situation in China, component availability and worldwide logistics.

 

As has been mentioned above, some of the HM7000 chips are oversize due to the lack of availability of certain materials and components and there are probably similar issues affecting the production and delivery of 00 rather than the prioritisation of one part of Hornby's range over another.

[NFWEM57]

29 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

Where did you hear this?

Its a fact..! Products, mainly TT120, announced long after others are arriving first.  Its not a dig at Hornby, they are prioritising their niche products, makes business sense given their financial position.  As does a customer deciding, I have waited long enough...! 

[HExpressD]

37 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

Where did you hear this?

 

3 minutes ago, NFWEM57 said:

Its a fact..! 

That's nowhere then..?

[newbryford]

4 minutes ago, NFWEM57 said:

Its a fact..! Products, mainly TT120, announced long after others are arriving first.  Its not a dig at Hornby, they are prioritising their niche products, makes business sense given their financial position.  As does a customer deciding, I have waited long enough...! 

 

??

Just because it may have been announced later and arrives earlier than other products doesn't mean it has been prioritised.

 

[Porfuera]

17 minutes ago, newbryford said:

??

Just because it may have been announced later and arrives earlier than other products doesn't mean it has been prioritised.

 

I completely agree.

 

According to SK, TT:120 has been in the planning stages for five years or so - there must have been plenty of 00 models announced during that time that have already come to market. Just because Hornby chose to reveal it as a 'big bang' last October doesn't mean that it is being prioritised.

 

And surely the same 'criticism' could be aimed at HM7000 itself? It was only announced this year and yet it has been released already but I don't think anyone is claiming that has been prioritised over 00.

[spamcan61]

33 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

??

Just because it may have been announced later and arrives earlier than other products doesn't mean it has been prioritised.

 

Agreed, for that matter several of the previously announced TT:120 products from 'phase 2' have been shunted out to winter 2024/2025 so that doesn't seem very prioritized.

[Bob83a]

41 minutes ago, NFWEM57 said:

Its a fact..! Products, mainly TT120, announced long after others are arriving first.  Its not a dig at Hornby, they are prioritising their niche products, makes business sense given their financial position.  As does a customer deciding, I have waited long enough...! 

So are Bachmann doing the same, items on backlog some for years that have not arrived yet and items only announced if a quarterly announcement that have arrived in the same quarter. Are those being prioritised.

 

Meanwhile back in the land of HM7000……..

[HExpressD]

7 minutes ago, Bob83a said:

So are Bachmann doing the same, items on backlog some for years that have not arrived yet and items only announced if a quarterly announcement that have arrived in the same quarter. Are those being prioritised.

Same with Dapol, Class 59 anyone? or the Accurascale Deltic which I think was also a bit delayed. Is it Hornby intentionally delaying ranges or is it more likely market pressures affecting all manufacturers..?

[Porfuera]

10 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

shunted

 

Nice! I see what you did there! 🤣

[Matt C]

On 30/03/2023 at 22:53, Mike Buckner said:

Next 18 + a bit

 

Just don't Google Next 18 plus. . . .  😳  ok..ok. YES I DID. . . it was RESEARCH. . . .🤣

[NFWEM57]

3 hours ago, HExpressD said:

That's nowhere then..?

Why do you have to hear it from somewhere. Do you think that Hornby would admit it, to anybody? Why can't a logical conclusion be draw based on the relevant facts?  B came out before A and A had been delayed yet again and now we have C.  Or is independent thought and judgement not allowed?  Production issues generally affect everything, not just certain items.  If production capacity is affected, there will be a prioritisation and, as I previously indicated, it would make business sense to schedule those items that will offer the most significant and fastest return on investment.  In business there is often prioritisation and reprioritisation, it happens all the time.   Why is this such a shock?

 

The major part of my submission concerned decoders and possible issues with sound quality, 3rd party sounds and NMRA standards downstream; the thread topic. 

[HExpressD]

38 minutes ago, NFWEM57 said:

Why do you have to hear it from somewhere. Do you think that Hornby would admit it, to anybody? Why can't a logical conclusion be draw based on the relevant facts?  B came out before A and A had been delayed yet again and now we have C.  Or is independent thought and judgement not allowed?  Production issues generally affect everything, not just certain items.  If production capacity is affected, there will be a prioritisation and, as I previously indicated, it would make business sense to schedule those items that will offer the most significant and fastest return on investment.  In business there is often prioritisation and reprioritisation, it happens all the time.   Why is this such a shock?

 

The major part of my submission concerned decoders and possible issues with sound quality, 3rd party sounds and NMRA standards downstream; the thread topic. 

You have made an assertion that Hornby are prioritising TT products over 00, you did not say that that is what you thought. Please back up the evidence that Hornby are doing this and then we can all get back to Bluetooth decoders!

[RAF96]

11 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

• Sound Quality, never very good with Hornby - Only 3 sound channels vs 10 for LokSound et al
• Ability to use 3rd Party Sound?
• Decoder firmware upgrades?
• Limited CV range or a full set?
• Blue tooth security?
• Automation, iTrains et al?
• 3rd party Decoders allowed, if they emerge, or an Apple approach to prevent competition?
• No NMRA standard yet for Bluetooth so other manufacturers may develop alternative solutions which are backward compatible  (ESU, et al).  The next ESU ECoS might be DCC and Bluetooth using a common interface allowing a user to mix decoder types.  Will the Hornby system be NMRA compliant when a standard is published?

From the top down :

Much better than TTS. Again the speaker is a key. Polyphonic at a premium price.

Not yet but under investigation. Such profiles would likely have to be lodged on Hornby servers for free download same as current files.

Yes as and when necessary. This is in place now.

Full set with immediate write and fast read back on the main.

Yes, obviously else any old Joe with the app on his phone could wreak havoc at a show by taking control of locos.

The decoders  work with RM and TGG (a private development). Automation will be a development of the app along with loco detection (don’t laugh and quote RM).

Possible if such liaison is set up. Again this harps back to a BT standard yet to be published.

How can you comply with a standard not even in play. The likelihood of such a standard developing would be manufacturer driven, but these days standards are being driven less by NMRA and more by Europe.

[NFWEM57]

33 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

From the top down :

Thank you for the comprehensive and informed response, very informative, particularly on automation.