Hornby 2023 - New tooling - Macaw B / Bogie Bolster C

[Star-rider]

On 10/01/2023 at 09:19, Miss Prism said:

'Macaw B' covers a variety of diagrams. Hornby's choice of the J21 duplicates the Bachmann.

 

Thanks for pointing that out so quickly, I hadn’t had chance to dig into it.

 

No sale here then - the increasing cost of models against a fixed disposable income means that I’ll be buying fewer items and my Bachmann model looks sufficiently like a Macaw for my own needs. A different prototype may have extracted some of my cash.

 

Would @Miss Prism or some other knowledgeable soul be kind enough to give a quick critique of the Bachmann model? If it is very deficient I may reconsider as I’m not averse to upgrading if the Hornby model would be substantially more accurate or detailed.

 

(It’s very much the same with the new “Castles”, I’d rather like one to replace one of my older models, but I don’t need it – They would however have sold me a “Saint”).

[Miss Prism]

I've always thought the Bachmann J21 was extremely good. (It originates with Mainline, but it's good enough to have an Airfix-design feel about it.) It is depicted in GWR style, with DC brakes. (Lever brakes were enforced after 1939). If Hornby is copying the preserved ones, theirs will probably be lever-braked. I'm surprised Hornby has chosen the J21, although they are understandably very useful on preserved lines.

 

[gwrrob]

2 hours ago, Star-rider said:

Would @Miss Prism or some other knowledgeable soul be kind enough to give a quick critique of the Bachmann model? If it is very deficient I may reconsider as I’m not averse to upgrading if the Hornby model would be substantially more accurate or detailed.

 

 

According to SK in the announcement video this model will have a diecast chassis. This should give it more weight. I shall be getting a couple after I agreed to purchase them in a mini- poll run by @BMacdermotton my layout thread eighteen months ago.😉 Of course the Bachmann model can also be upgraded.

[VIA185]

On 10/01/2023 at 14:53, Ravenser said:

They can keep doing several new wagons a year - but the price of that is that last year's wagon project makes way for this one.  (The Rapido J70 is no longer available, and they aren't taking orders for a rerun. Looks like that one has had its time, and they move on)

 

 

The 'J70' is still available. It is a Model Rail project produced by Rapido and several versions of the J70 are still available though some BR liveried/skirted versions have sold out. (CJL). 

[Miss Prism]

26 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

According to SK in the announcement video this model will have a diecast chassis. This should give it more weight.

 

That's true, but adding weight to a plastic long Macaw is not a problem. Let's hope SK's diecast chassis isn't made of Mazak.

 

[Ravenser]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

That wasn't what I was suggesting - was it.  I pointed out that Barwell have a second source of models through their EFE range;  I certainly didn't suggest or hint that they would use existing Kader tooling for that range (EFE models of course aren't made by Kader).

 

While I think it's fairly obvious why the current Barwell management went in for the creation of a second brand with a different stream of manufacture there's probably a lot more to it than whatever first comes to mind.  And don't overlook the fact that totally new models which have never appeared under any other brand have come from EFE including some fairly recently released LSWR coaches.  That alone suggests to me that EFE is maybe developing as a brand and could well produce further original models of its own.

 

Bachmann could (in theory) respond quickly to Hornby's announcement by pumping out a run of their own MACAW, a tactic Hornby have not been averse to over the years . But they are short of capacity at Kadar, would have to sacrifice something more valuable to free up the slot, and they can't side step that by using EFE

 

(While Hornby clearly have their own issues in getting sufficient product out of the factories - witness SK's apologies for non-appearance of most of the 2022 announcements, they have more capacity, and deal with multiple factories. If slots are freed up because new models slip they could reuse those slots to run a "spoiler " The recent Drax Biomass wagon, very sharply priced , might well have benefited from slippage of the 2022 range. )

 

Hornby are widely seen as a joint sitting ready for carving. Bachmann are not, even though their Deltic and 37 have been targetted (But when was the Bachmann Deltic last released, anyway?)

 

Therefore it was, and is, very much less likely that a third company was also working on a new MACAW, given that one has been in the Bachmann tool bank /range for many years (unless you have inside knowledge that someone out there was planning one. Even then that manufacturer would be able to offer a different diagram) 

 

Arguably the MACAW and Salmon are safer options than (say) an LMS steel 12T van,  given that the potential rivals to the Hornby models are already sitting out there in plain sight. Rapido have overwhelmingly tooled up wagons that no-one has ever done before. And in the case of the two modern image wagons they have tooled up to replace  items in the Hornby range (OAA and VIX)  those Hornby models are  old tooling (very old tooling indeed in the case of the VIX,) and have major underframe issues, sitting too high on radial trucks

 

But I notice Hornby have chosen to rerun their own OAA this year as an affordable wagon in Railroad . Bachmann don't do that sort of thing

 

I don't have inside knowledge of anyone's plans . But to an outsider it seems logical that the "new boys" would pick a wagon that had never been done before , or target a Hornby model , rather than tool up somrthing already in Bachmann's tool bank. That would be in line with pretty well everything we've seen from them so far. Outside the politics of a few diesel loco classes, Bachmann are not normally seen as vulnerable. Hornby are widely seen as sitting ducks waiting to be picked off by anyone and everyone

 

And having chosen to tool a rival to a Bachmann product Hornby can be reasonably confident that Bachmann won't meet fire with fire and release the ex Mainline model at a budget price against them. Bachmann don't do "affordable/budget" ranges - they are "full fat" or nothing 

 

(I do think Hornby in their policy towards OO are being very much guided by what they have seen in the Continental HO market. On the Continent the race to premium models at premium prices on short runs - the so-called "museum quality model" - ended in a disastrous collapse in sales as prices and costs became prohibitive, and most manufacturers went bust or were bought out at least once. Hornby International has always positioned itself as an affordable mid-range brand in that market . We tend to assume Hornby's non-British interests are a minor detail in their business. I personally suspect 30-35% of their model railways sales may be overseas ranges under Hornby International)

 

EFE is another string to Bachmann's bow, and the relationship with Kernow is interesting. They are going in a very different commercial direction with their own tooling from Rails and hattons. The LSWR coach set release is an interesting development. Apparently they share some tooling with Kernow's gate stock and I recall a suggestion that a Kernow logo was somewhere on the box, though it's not mentioned in either the thread here or Graham Muspratt's review.

 

But these are very much premium priced, at £75 per coach, and some questions have been raised about their accuracy. Meanwhile Hornby are knocking out Mk3s at £45 RRP for 2023

 

Hornby are plainly going for the "affordable mid range" slot, and the premium-priced stuff is aimed fair and square at the collectors (Prototype Deltic). Bachmann are chasing the top end, as they have historically done

 

How being an affordable midrange brand sits with new tooling at today's tooling cost is an interesting question. Bachmann's pricing of coaches suggests that new tooling /development costs put £20 on the retail price of a coach ....

Edited January 11, 2023 by Ravenser

[Black Marlin]

But Bachmann certainly are vulnerable to competitors targeting the heritage Mainline tooling, or more modern but inaccurate models: see Dapol and Accurascale going for the Manor. Personally, while there has been much (and I think accurate) commentary on the vulnerability of Hornby's 8F, I think another model at least as vulnerable if not more so is Bachmann's as-built Royal Scot. Hornby themselves, after all, grabbed the Lord Nelson...

[No Decorum]

13 hours ago, Black Marlin said:

Hornby themselves, after all, grabbed the Lord Nelson...

… and the wrong tin of paint. Most frustrating to see it on an otherwise decent model.

[Black Marlin]

6 hours ago, No Decorum said:

Most frustrating to see it on an otherwise decent model.

it's a good model, but for me its light weight badly lets it down. In real life it was built to be more powerful than the N15s/King Arthurs, but in model form the latter will comfortably out-haul it. Frustratingly, it really struggles on a prototypical Golden Arrow service!

Anyway, that's getting off-topic. Dragging it back, though, and remaining with themes of weight and haulage, it doesn't take too many metal-chassied bogie wagons before a scale-length rake becomes too heavy for most locomotives to pull (see Hattons' Warwells - although admittedly I added to my woes by putting a platoon of diecast 105mm Shermans on mine). As a result, it makes sense to see these Macaws as the natural province of Hornby's new 9F.

[Halvarras]

On 10/01/2023 at 13:34, The Stationmaster said:

 

Interesting to learn that rapido are using 'soft' one shot tooling but have already re-run several past models which doesn't seem to sit with that situation. 

 

When Heljan released their OO Hymek  - 20 years ago at this year's end, can you believe it?! - the proprietor of my local model railway shop, a small-scale manufacturer himself, claimed that Heljan used 'soft' tooling too (aluminium?) - however Heljan's apparent and ongoing attempt to model all 101 class members since then would contradict that! (The first I knew of the Hymek was during a visit to the same shop earlier that year when I was told Heljan's Kim had popped in with a bodyshell test shot in his hand - it was their second OO model after the Class 47, and was so impressive we had high hopes for the third, the Western Class 52.......oooooh, close but no cigar🙄! For a while then the Hymek was kind of like a 'rose between two thorns'........)

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

When Heljan released their OO Hymek  - 20 years ago at this year's end, can you believe it?! - the proprietor of my local model railway shop, a small-scale manufacturer himself, claimed that Heljan used 'soft' tooling too (aluminium?) - however Heljan's apparent and ongoing attempt to model all 101 class members since then would contradict that! (The first I knew of the Hymek was during a visit to the same shop earlier that year when I was told Heljan's Kim had popped in with a bodyshell test shot in his hand - it was their second OO model after the Class 47, and was so impressive we had high hopes for the third, the Western Class 52.......oooooh, close but no cigar🙄! For a while then the Hymek was kind of like a 'rose between two thorns'........)

 

The old Hornby TTA tooling from the late 60s seems to have worn out , and is finally being replaced. The old Mk1 tooling from 1961-2 wore out a few years back and was replaced by the current Railroad range of Mk1s.  (Although at least one tool for the carcase of the coach is still usable - they are rerunning the 1963 fake Grampians this year, though the bodyside tooling will not have seen a lot of use) . The GW clerestories from 1961 are still knocking about , too

 

This is how much use you can get out of "hard" tools......

 

The Heljan Hymek tools haven't had anything like that kind of intensive year-in year-out use, so it's not surprising they are still ok . The 47 tools seem to have finally been replaced , but they are earlier and have been used more.

 

Is the extra expense of "hard" tooling actually worth it now?

 

(And you raise a very relevant point about expectations of a stunning model not always being fulfilled. ... A lot of folk are confidently asserting that models we haven't seen yet or haven't been able to examine close up will "blow away" Hornby. KR Fell anyone???)

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Ravenser

[46444]

Should be a nice update on the venerable Bachmann Macaw with a bit more finesse in the mouldings.

 

Other than outstanding orders for the BR Standard 2MT this model will be my only new Hornby purchase this forthcoming year.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

When Heljan released their OO Hymek  - 20 years ago at this year's end, can you believe it?! - the proprietor of my local model railway shop, a small-scale manufacturer himself, claimed that Heljan used 'soft' tooling too (aluminium?) - however Heljan's apparent and ongoing attempt to model all 101 class members since then would contradict that! (The first I knew of the Hymek was during a visit to the same shop earlier that year when I was told Heljan's Kim had popped in with a bodyshell test shot in his hand - it was their second OO model after the Class 47, and was so impressive we had high hopes for the third, the Western Class 52.......oooooh, close but no cigar🙄! For a while then the Hymek was kind of like a 'rose between two thorns'........)

I seem to recollect that a chap whose first letter on the name of his business was a 'D' put it about at one time that certain companies were using 'soft' tooling.

[Enterprisingwestern]

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I seem to recollect that a chap whose first letter on the name of his business was a 'D' put it about at one time that certain companies were using 'soft' tooling.

 

If it's who I'm thinking it is, then if you can find him to ask him to confirm that statement, there are a few other people with questions to ask, a few including references to basebal bats too I would surmise.

 

Mike.

[Butler Henderson]

23 hours ago, 46444 said:

Should be a nice update on the venerable Bachmann Macaw with a bit more finesse in the mouldings.

Or given much of Hornbys current production possibly that would be easilly broken with no chance of getting a spare part.

[46444]

40 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Or given much of Hornbys current production possibly that would be easilly broken with no chance of getting a spare part.

 

Then again there could be an alignment of the stars...

[Halvarras]

On 13/01/2023 at 10:59, The Stationmaster said:

I seem to recollect that a chap whose first letter on the name of his business was a 'D' put it about at one time that certain companies were using 'soft' tooling.

 

I lived in Swindon at the time, if that's any clue......

 

My subscription copy of Hornby magazine arrived yesterday, with a big photo of Heljan's D7041 - and judging by the noticeable mould seam lines on the cab front corner and above the cab door I wonder if the tooling integrity is finally on the slide. Shame the RRP has gone in the opposite direction at the same time then......but it's still a great model of my favourite locomotive...........anyway, sorry, this is relevant to Heljan Hymek tooling but nothing to do with Hornby's new Macaw B so slap own wrist for wandering OT......something I seem to be prone to on 'ere 🙄!

[peterfgf]

On 11/01/2023 at 16:27, Ravenser said:

 

Bachmann could (in theory) respond quickly to Hornby's announcement by pumping out a run of their own MACAW, a tactic Hornby have not been averse to over the years . But they are short of capacity at Kadar, would have to sacrifice something more valuable to free up the slot, and they can't side step that by using EFE

 

(While Hornby clearly have their own issues in getting sufficient product out of the factories - witness SK's apologies for non-appearance of most of the 2022 announcements, they have more capacity, and deal with multiple factories. If slots are freed up because new models slip they could reuse those slots to run a "spoiler " The recent Drax Biomass wagon, very sharply priced , might well have benefited from slippage of the 2022 range. )

 

Hornby are widely seen as a joint sitting ready for carving. Bachmann are not, even though their Deltic and 37 have been targetted (But when was the Bachmann Deltic last released, anyway?)

 

Therefore it was, and is, very much less likely that a third company was also working on a new MACAW, given that one has been in the Bachmann tool bank /range for many years (unless you have inside knowledge that someone out there was planning one. Even then that manufacturer would be able to offer a different diagram) 

 

Arguably the MACAW and Salmon are safer options than (say) an LMS steel 12T van,  given that the potential rivals to the Hornby models are already sitting out there in plain sight. Rapido have overwhelmingly tooled up wagons that no-one has ever done before. And in the case of the two modern image wagons they have tooled up to replace  items in the Hornby range (OAA and VIX)  those Hornby models are  old tooling (very old tooling indeed in the case of the VIX,) and have major underframe issues, sitting too high on radial trucks

 

But I notice Hornby have chosen to rerun their own OAA this year as an affordable wagon in Railroad . Bachmann don't do that sort of thing

 

I don't have inside knowledge of anyone's plans . But to an outsider it seems logical that the "new boys" would pick a wagon that had never been done before , or target a Hornby model , rather than tool up somrthing already in Bachmann's tool bank. That would be in line with pretty well everything we've seen from them so far. Outside the politics of a few diesel loco classes, Bachmann are not normally seen as vulnerable. Hornby are widely seen as sitting ducks waiting to be picked off by anyone and everyone

 

And having chosen to tool a rival to a Bachmann product Hornby can be reasonably confident that Bachmann won't meet fire with fire and release the ex Mainline model at a budget price against them. Bachmann don't do "affordable/budget" ranges - they are "full fat" or nothing 

 

(I do think Hornby in their policy towards OO are being very much guided by what they have seen in the Continental HO market. On the Continent the race to premium models at premium prices on short runs - the so-called "museum quality model" - ended in a disastrous collapse in sales as prices and costs became prohibitive, and most manufacturers went bust or were bought out at least once. Hornby International has always positioned itself as an affordable mid-range brand in that market . We tend to assume Hornby's non-British interests are a minor detail in their business. I personally suspect 30-35% of their model railways sales may be overseas ranges under Hornby International)

 

EFE is another string to Bachmann's bow, and the relationship with Kernow is interesting. They are going in a very different commercial direction with their own tooling from Rails and hattons. The LSWR coach set release is an interesting development. Apparently they share some tooling with Kernow's gate stock and I recall a suggestion that a Kernow logo was somewhere on the box, though it's not mentioned in either the thread here or Graham Muspratt's review.

 

But these are very much premium priced, at £75 per coach, and some questions have been raised about their accuracy. Meanwhile Hornby are knocking out Mk3s at £45 RRP for 2023

 

Hornby are plainly going for the "affordable mid range" slot, and the premium-priced stuff is aimed fair and square at the collectors (Prototype Deltic). Bachmann are chasing the top end, as they have historically done

 

How being an affordable midrange brand sits with new tooling at today's tooling cost is an interesting question. Bachmann's pricing of coaches suggests that new tooling /development costs put £20 on the retail price of a coach ....

I found a copy of the Hornby 2023 international catalogue recently.  Their scale of European makes their British market seem on the small side.  The catalogue file name is Hornby_HINT_CAT23_web-low_res_V2 but I can't remember where I got the catalogue from but here is a link to one that can be downloaded:

https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/5616/7342/6800/Hornby_HINT_CAT23_web-low_res_V2.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3Po0wjO7FQi4aS8lHuax12mOZbGQOYWUVLKFCMrbXeRUM6U_lq4-pv5JA

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 12/01/2023 at 22:34, 46444 said:

Should be a nice update on the venerable Bachmann Macaw with a bit more finesse in the mouldings.

 

Other than outstanding orders for the BR Standard 2MT this model will be my only new Hornby purchase this forthcoming year.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark 

 

Good old Hornby, why duplicate a perfectly adequate existing wagon, available as rtr with etched/cast improvements available and the option to convert to other diagrams, instead of introducing a new wagon?, something like the open C and it's variations would have been one choice.

 

Mike.

[Ravenser]

18 minutes ago, peterfgf said:

I found a copy of the Hornby 2023 international catalogue recently.  Their scale of European makes their British market seem on the small side.  The catalogue file name is Hornby_HINT_CAT23_web-low_res_V2 but I can't remember where I got the catalogue from but here is a link to one that can be downloaded:

https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/5616/7342/6800/Hornby_HINT_CAT23_web-low_res_V2.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3Po0wjO7FQi4aS8lHuax12mOZbGQOYWUVLKFCMrbXeRUM6U_lq4-pv5JA

 

I've just been poking around on Hornby's website , and the 2023 Continental product ranges are:

 

HO:

Electrotren:          40 items for 2023

Jouef :                    87 items for 2023

Rivarossi              160 items for 2023

Lima :                       3 items for 2023

 

Smaller Scales:

Arnold N               166 items for 2023

Arnold TT                29 items for 2023

 

The Arnold range - which covers France, Spain and Italy as well as Germany - isn't that much smaller than the combined total for the HO ranges . Someone said somewhere that a lot of this year's new tooling seemed to be going into Arnold, rather than HO models

 

Back on topic:

 

This might help explain

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I understood the mould had failed for one of the two [ex Mainline LMS P1 coaches ] but they're readily available second-hand. Likewise the ex-Airfix P3 pair that Dapol only recently stopped making (similar problems I believe) and are also easy to find second-hand. That gives you a 60 ft composite. With a bit of work they can be brought up to a passable standard to sit alongside the more recent Hornby and Bachmann models, or used as a basis for other 60 ft diagrams using Comet sides, now from Wizard Models.

 

one answer to this

 

14 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Good old Hornby, why duplicate a perfectly adequate existing wagon, available as rtr with etched/cast improvements available and the option to convert to other diagrams, instead of introducing a new wagon?, something like the open C and it's variations would have been one choice.

 

Mike.

 

How long do we reckon the old Mainline tooling will carry on?

 

Another reason is that others won't be developing a rival model .

 

And a third reason for going for bogie steel carriers is that development and tooling costs probably don't reduce that much for a small 4 wheel wagon - but the retail price for a bogie vehicle will certainly be higher

[Garethp8873]

Renders of the GWR Macaw on the link below. Seems they have been looking at the SVR's 107291 Macaw :)

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/engine-shed/streamlined-salmon-wagon

[Mark Hamlin]

Any updates on these yet?
 

Seems a long time between drinks 🙂

[gwrrob]

10 hours ago, Mark Hamlin said:

Any updates on these yet?
 

Seems a long time between drinks 🙂

 

Expected in the summer of '24.

[Jack P]

A shame these appear to have been cancelled in the 2024 catalogue, is there a decent kit out there instead?

[Miss Prism]

24 minutes ago, Jack P said:

A shame these appear to have been cancelled in the 2024 catalogue, is there a decent kit out there instead?

 

The Bachmann one is available.