swisspeat Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 On 20/12/2023 at 18:44, bantam61668 said: and a BLS liveried Re420, my biggest modelling regret is not buying a Roco one about 10 years ago and now they are like rocking horse excrement, I've seen 2 sell on a well known auction site in about 8 years........ Looking at the new Roco Swiss releases your wish for a BLS 420 will be met, at a price.... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montreux_1991 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 21 hours ago, Gordonwis said: Photo montages - so no guarantees yet ! However it would be pretty poor if the marketing people hadn't woken up to the shape inaccuracies of the previous 'brand new' Re4/4II (and also perhaps an 'egg on face ' admission that they spent loads a money on a duff model) An interesting thing in the 'inset blow up' images is what looks like a raised FFS lettering . I’m no longer sure the 2013 Re 4/4 tooling was all-new. It was initially exciting to find that spare glazing units, despite better colour choices and separately applied windscreen wipers, exactly fitted my existing models, but perhaps this was telling me (if I would only listen) that the original body tooling had been modified rather than scrapped. Perhaps this year we'll get an a new body and glazing but with many detail parts carried over from 2013 or from the Re6/6? And I’m not sure I understand what Fleischmann are thinking with the Cisalpino. The prototype illustration on page 47 features SBB Apm coaches (presumably on the Geneva-Milan route, between Veytaux-Chillon and Villeneuve) whereas the model photos suggest an FS first, using the ex-Roco Eurofima with no attempt to modify the roof moulding, and a brand new SBB Bpm incorrectly riding on Eurofima bogies... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordonwis Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, Montreux_1991 said: I’m no longer sure the 2013 Re 4/4 tooling was all-new. It was initially exciting to find that spare glazing units, despite better colour choices and separately applied windscreen wipers, exactly fitted my existing models, but perhaps this was telling me (if I would only listen) that the original body tooling had been modified rather than scrapped. Perhaps this year we'll get an a new body and glazing but with many detail parts carried over from 2013 or from the Re6/6? That's a good call. I've no idea who does research at Messrs Fleischmann but there has been a comment on another forum about 'yet another Re4/4II ...in TEEE ...as (yawn) 11158) ...again! Similarly why a Cargo livery 421 without aircon. If they want to sell loads of Re4/4II (because lots of people might want to make up an Re10/10 combo), a simple red livery twin panto example with Re420 numbering caters for a good few years now, but also bang up to 'today' And more Cisalpino stuff ( a short lived brand and liveries) Edited January 17 by Gordonwis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBB1 Posted January 17 Author Share Posted January 17 (edited) I imagine that when Fleischmann tool up for a model like the Re4/4II, with so many variations possible coupled and a seeming lack of production capacity to release more than 2/3 variants at a time, they have a roadmap set out for the next 10+ years. So I wonder how much thought actually goes into what will fly off the shelves fastest. Maybe I'm assuming they have a plan and giving them too much credit! Arnold have done a similar thing with the New Pendolino - any number of variations on the market, but no sign of the "obvious" RABe 503 in plain SBB livery. Edited January 17 by SBB1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOB 2002 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Maybe, but I’d have thought good business sense would want to recoup investment made over as short a time as possible? Then you can reinvest and repeat? Perhaps model railway manufacturing isn’t the place to look for good business sense? Mark 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 17 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17 (edited) You don’t want to do all liveries at once because it’s a huge investment in stock and multiple changes on the paint, print and final assembly lines which naturally split production into batches. If you release a lot at once you have to store it and wait for all to be done. So it’s a thing to produce nice but less popular liveries first because people will buy them to have one. Then you fill in the ones where the market breadth might be smaller but modellers might buy two or three and the most popular liveries later to get max longevity out of the tooling without huge amounts of stock sat on shelves. It makes a lot of sense commercially because those who are focused on batch two or three may well buy from the first too because it’s actually quite nice. If you do it all in one go people expect something else totally new so you need to produce more models rather than rerun a different scheme and a lot of others who’d buy one of each over three years miss out because they don’t have the capital in one go. So overall dumping lots at once costs a lot up front and leaves you with a lot of money sat on shelves that then costs storage. Less up front investment mesns batch one pays for the next and you get our attention to pre order batch two and less risk overall. With the recent Bachmann 009 ‘Ladies’ they did Penrhyn first, 0-4-0 tender variants second and the present day 2-4-0 +T last. The last one being the ‘ooh I rode behind that’ so I want one hook. Edited January 17 by PaulRhB 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westie7 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 On 15/10/2023 at 11:42, SBB1 said: Lemke's Autumn 2023 announcements; amongst other things, it looks like there will be a new run of IC2000s: Seriously considering an IC2000 set, what would be everyone's recommendation for a retailer, TIA Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOB 2002 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, PaulRhB said: So it’s a thing to produce nice but less popular liveries first because people will buy them to have one. Then you fill in the ones where the market breadth might be smaller but modellers might buy two or three and the most popular liveries later to get max longevity out of the tooling without huge amounts of stock sat on shelves. It makes a lot of sense commercially because those who are focused on batch two or three may well buy from the first too because it’s actually quite nice. Ok, I can sort of understand that logic even if it sounds like there’s at best a lot of psychology involved and at worst, guess work! I’m still not entirely sure the Fleischmann Re4/4II choice will achieve that though - from what I’ve seen of the second hand market the TEE liveried machines probably command the lowest price of the current generation model, which is probably a good indicator. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 17 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17 28 minutes ago, MOB 2002 said: even if it sounds like there’s at best a lot of psychology involved and at worst, guess work! It’s been studied and bigger companies will research the market, I suspect most model manufacturers have someone who learnt it in business school or heard about it and do a less scientific version but it does work. Chat to the 009 society sales team and watch ads on forums and you’ll see a fair number of the latest model turn up within a year secondhand because someone succumbed to the ooh shiny instinct 😉 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBB1 Posted January 17 Author Share Posted January 17 2 hours ago, westie7 said: Seriously considering an IC2000 set, what would be everyone's recommendation for a retailer, TIA Mark If you're UK-based, I can highly recommend Scograil. Excellent service and prices. Free shipping for orders over £35. The one time I did have to return an item (an IC2020 ironically!) they were very helpful and processed it with no fuss. https://www.scograil.co.uk/ 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBB1 Posted January 17 Author Share Posted January 17 2 hours ago, PaulRhB said: You don’t want to do all liveries at once because it’s a huge investment in stock and multiple changes on the paint, print and final assembly lines which naturally split production into batches. If you release a lot at once you have to store it and wait for all to be done. So it’s a thing to produce nice but less popular liveries first because people will buy them to have one. Then you fill in the ones where the market breadth might be smaller but modellers might buy two or three and the most popular liveries later to get max longevity out of the tooling without huge amounts of stock sat on shelves. It makes a lot of sense commercially because those who are focused on batch two or three may well buy from the first too because it’s actually quite nice. If you do it all in one go people expect something else totally new so you need to produce more models rather than rerun a different scheme and a lot of others who’d buy one of each over three years miss out because they don’t have the capital in one go. So overall dumping lots at once costs a lot up front and leaves you with a lot of money sat on shelves that then costs storage. Less up front investment mesns batch one pays for the next and you get our attention to pre order batch two and less risk overall. With the recent Bachmann 009 ‘Ladies’ they did Penrhyn first, 0-4-0 tender variants second and the present day 2-4-0 +T last. The last one being the ‘ooh I rode behind that’ so I want one hook. You can see this with the Re 484. A standard-liveried Cargo model would be popular I'd imagine, but so far they've released a modern one-off and the short-lived Cisalpino variant. I think Fleischmann know what they're doing, for better or worse! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMR272 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 I would like to suggest on my wishlist to be a SBB 450 in HO which is more affordable (the HAG model is always out of mine and probably alot of people's wallets). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordonwis Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Thanks for all the views on 'business sense' - but I'm still not buying an Arnold ETR610 until they do it in plain SBB livery... On the subject of unwanted model variants, I think it it is very telling that in recent days/weeks I've seen Cisalpino livery N gauge stuff being 'remaindered'... The next test of all this will be the sales figures for the Arnold SNCF CC6500 in 'aberration' beton livery' - a double whammy of short lived and disliked (the latter is why it was short lived...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOB 2002 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 21 hours ago, PaulRhB said: It’s been studied and bigger companies will research the market, I suspect most model manufacturers have someone who learnt it in business school or heard about it and do a less scientific version but it does work. Chat to the 009 society sales team and watch ads on forums and you’ll see a fair number of the latest model turn up within a year secondhand because someone succumbed to the ooh shiny instinct 😉 It occurs to me that human behaviour is not fixed. Has research caught up? Particularly in something like model railway stock purchases, that behaviour will be impacted massively by external factors. I wonder if some of the problems currently being seen aren’t a slow reaction to changing spending behaviours? We all justify our model railway expenditure in different ways. But in this example I suspect most will think it’s much easier to internally justify an Re4/4 II that will fill a substantial gap (the last generation never adequately covered green or red variants at all), than another model of exactly the same loco in a livery that’s always a bit niche. If money isn’t going as far as it once was, the decision could easily change. Adding the apparently fixed dominant model of releases, to changes in spending habits could actually be a recipe for disaster. If everyone is following pretty much the same model then the opportunities for the dangers of group think to creep in are clear. Are manufacturers holding on for a pay day that may never come? I’m not going to change a manufacturers mind - I am but a random interested individual, but it’s in all of our interests that they get it right and flourish really. Personally, if I was running a model railway manufacturer right now, I think I’d be looking for a cash cow. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 18 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18 1 hour ago, MOB 2002 said: Personally, if I was running a model railway manufacturer right now, I think I’d be looking for a cash cow. The thing is if you release the less popular ones last you only get the collector / completists buying it. It’s still working in other ranges so I guess it’s more based on base human behaviour than the volatility of market ups and downs. They’ve certainly got all of your attention and LGB have done it with the release of the Ge6/6ii where several I know waited avidly for the one without the 70 jahre text all over it 😉 There’s always been psychology in models, when I worked making kits nearly thirty years ago we often got moans of why coaches were only slightly cheaper than locos. Fact was apart from motor and gears there was no difference in overall parts and coaches also needed all the interior detail throughout vs just two cabs in a loco. So you increase the price of the locos and people stop moaning about the coaches! Bachmann UK’s price increases ten odd years ago were dictated by the parent company bringing them into line with the European ranges so they were equally profitable. People ranted but three years later it all died down as others followed suit. Now it’s accepted and as the parent company wasn’t enthusiast based in their decision they would likely have dropped the less profitable lines and used the capacity for other things. Making them more profitable also coincided with some of the less expected prototypes suddenly becoming viable, Blue Pullman, LNWR Jumbo etc. I don’t know the facts with the Re4/4 manufacturer but as they were investment bank owned and have shareholders I’d be surprised if the same basic ethos isn’t applying. The only companies bucking the trend over years seem to be Dapol and Piko consistently, although note with the Lionheart L&B range only one Southern livery in batch one so their premium brand seems to follow that a bit. Accurascale are too but I suspect there’s an establishing market share behind their choices currently. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOB 2002 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) Maybe it’s no coincidence that my wallet seems to open for Piko products quite regularly 🤔 I think I’ve only managed to buy one new (as opposed to second hand) Fleischmann loco (under £200) since I returned to the hobby during covid. In the same time I must have spent about four times that on new Piko traction despite their more limited range. Mark * actually the same is true on carriage stock too - a couple of Fleischmann EW IV vs a full length rake of Piko EW I. Edited January 18 by MOB 2002 Carriages 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samedan Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 It’s likely that there are differences in Continental European as opposed to U.K. (and Ireland) manufacturers. Although, to me, they seem counter-intuitive, given that the British consumer base must currently be weaker than the (Western) European norm. what I’m on about mainly, is the trend from British manufacturers, especially the newer and/or more niche brands, which seem to splurge numerous livery and period variants pretty much immediately. Perhaps the increasing trend towards limited production runs with an emphasis on “when they’re gone, they’re gone” pre-ordering is part of it? Whereas, Continental brands do seem to be playing a relatively cautious game these days. I suppose that one of the problems facing those supplying the Swiss-interested market is that brand new locos or sets, as opposed to endless livery variations, only appear infrequently. So they are left constantly fiddling about with livery and minor detail variants. Of course, the complaints that old favourites keep reappearing, rather than gaps being filled, reflects the view of the committed modeller who probably already has a lot of models in their collection. If a brand wants to attract new custom and appeal to the younger or less committed, they need to keep pushing colourful, iconic and widely-travelled prototypes. Interestingly, I’ve recently come from being involved in Pete Waterman’s / Railnuts Christmas exhibition in Cheshire. Lots of enthusiastic youngsters through the door. Based on anecdotal evidence from these exhibitions, Pete’s strongly held view is that the kids are really, really interested in attractive express trains that are currently running on the main lines. Such as Azumas. Can they be much different from their counterparts across the Channel? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samedan Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Anyway, changing scales to HOm, this beauty from Bemo has got my juices flowing. I’ve coveted the “Crystal Panoramic” set (as it was originally called) for years and found good ones very hard to come by. It’ll be eye-wateringly expensive, and I don’t generally model the MOB, but I’ll have to have it. Not my preferred traditional MOB pale blue livery, but I love the Pininfarina designed lines. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 19 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19 48 minutes ago, Samedan said: what I’m on about mainly, is the trend from British manufacturers, especially the newer and/or more niche brands, which seem to splurge numerous livery and period variants pretty much immediately. Establishing themselves market position is one reason for the biggest that has serious finance behind it. What they intend to do once established will be interesting to see, is the money a serious enthusiast only or seen an opportunity to build then sell to an investment group like those that own Fleischmann, Roco etc? Others are heavily driven by passion and remain a very small operation with only four to five people overall, not all of them full time. They are both doing a ‘splurge’ of liveries but possibly radically different motives. The established manufacturer will be more likely to be cautious and follow the less risky course mentioned above because they are justifying budgets to shareholders or a group parent company. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantam61668 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 On 16/01/2024 at 17:39, swisspeat said: Looking at the new Roco Swiss releases your wish for a BLS 420 will be met, at a price.... With this and the Piko BLS stock 2024 isn't going to be a cheap year........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOB 2002 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Hobbytrain and other Lemke brands 2024 announcements have appeared. Actually the most disappointing yet - one extra livery for the already close Re4/4 IVs while all references to the Bpm carriages have vanished. https://lemkecollection.de/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Lemke-Neuheiten-2024.pdf On the plus side, I think my travel budget for 2024 has grown substantially in these last couple of weeks! Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordonwis Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 3 hours ago, MOB 2002 said: . Actually the most disappointing yet - one extra livery for the already close Re4/4 IVs It's a bit more than that IMHO. It could be argued that Graffiti covered Swiss wagons is the most significant new item announcement for many years - given that this is the way all nearly all wagons are nowadays! Also I have a photo of an RTS class 2043 at Olten... . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montreux_1991 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 On 22/01/2024 at 21:25, MOB 2002 said: Hobbytrain and other Lemke brands 2024 announcements have appeared. Actually the most disappointing yet - one extra livery for the already close Re4/4 IVs while all references to the Bpm carriages have vanished. https://lemkecollection.de/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Lemke-Neuheiten-2024.pdf On the plus side, I think my travel budget for 2024 has grown substantially in these last couple of weeks! Mark On the other hand... Pirata have announced two 'IC Lemano' sets: three Gran Confort coaches, and three handmade 'metal' Eurofima 2nd class. These are Art. 6193 and Art. 6194 respectively on the Pirata website, or the other way round in the 'Novita 2024' pdf. The previously announced FS 1983 restaurant car with ribbed roof (in the 'Benedetto Croce' set Art. 6160) now has a ribbed roof in the catalogue photo, although this could just be a photomontage. The previously announced 'metal' UIC-Z1 coaches in 1980s livery are are still represented by photos of the Arnold model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordonwis Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) Suffice to say a DB Br 64 for RhB is not on my Swiss wishlist :-) https://www.ebay.de/itm/204356321051?hash=item2f9495ff1b:g:P1oAAOSwGVlkee3Z&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4Atm7EKoJDfqlZNpB6afgFjA%2FJb8Q2iZANE5%2Be4CWG6aC%2BvKxydl5vzbj%2BbU33Ka2f42YX63H%2BGp6nMd%2BZCu9dtPfdBmcxjUd7kEdxD8yRjfGx66154yGozKJPk4QPPvwpw28BZFpu0o7S2ABvNpaSqbtpZ8nclWO1%2FiFQ4%2F1PK%2BP96xrcuGFPrR7TmxFbHNZzuG%2F%2F3%2B9FXYq4FZdf2DN55NYcIRNv9sAcxDDBw2%2F4A7vZdZWK83Dg1lBzpVQelXyVHLZmCaWYBeE0YVw0mbEFE8%2B%2BpbVZIElPvQOFdTabnu|tkp%3ABk9SR8KXvPGsYw Edited February 2 by Gordonwis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_hobbles Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) Some exciting announcements from Noch/Kato on some reruns and new models for the RhB in their Nm9 (N 1/150) range. Link to brochure: https://media.noch.de/filestore/2/3/1/6/9_af14160fc3ccecd/23169_05d915e471ea219.pdf?v=1705661742 Re-runs: * Re-Run of the yellow open panorama wagon with new running number * Re-run of the Bernina Express car sets with new running numbers * Re-run of baggage car (with pantograph) with new running number * Re-run of EW I's with new running numbers * Re-run of Gourmino restaurant car with SAME running number * Re-run of ABe 8/12 Allegra with new running number ("Anna von Planta") New Allegra liveries: * ABe 8/12 Allegra in Arosa blue * ABe 8/12 Allegra in ABB white/red New Ge 4/4 livery: * Ge 4/4 II in "RhB Club" livery And most excitingly, a new goods wagon - flat car with stakes: * 4 wagon set with containers (green/white Railcare livery containers) * 4 wagon set with logs * Individual wagon with no load * Log set (3 logs) Personally I cant wait for the new flat car wagons, along with the ABB Allegra and RhB Club Ge 4/4. Edited February 13 by mr_hobbles 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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