Would we accept less detailed models

[JohnR]

I think it would depend. If there was an accurate model of, say a Jubilee, available, alongside the cheaper, slightly less accurate version, there might not be the push back.

 

But if it was the only option available, then I think there would. 

[Dunsignalling]

22 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

Well, I'm pleased to hear that spares are available, but what levels of stock, and for how long? As long as some of the Tri-ang models were in production, over eight years in one case?

 I think you are right in your view. RMweb is populated by people with an above average commitment to accuracy I would imagine. I don't think the general public, the type of person who buys a train-set for their children would care or notice. The main point I am making is that only by compromising on accuracy will manufacturers benefit from economy of scale. The main problem with any such compromise though is that initial sales to modelers would probably be lower and any economy of scale would be defeated. Hornby is pitching TT:120 at new modelers. They might be less inclined to buy on the basis of accuracy and be more inclined to buy on what they perceive as value for money.

The reality is that only a small proportion of parents nowadays buy train sets for their offspring, and the few that do are likely to be in the hobby at some level themselves, so will have a presence on RMWeb or similar forums. 

 

Compromising on accuracy or detail would only produce economies of scale if resulted in greatly increased sales over and above any it abstracted from sales of quality models, i.e. to people who currently don't buy anything.

 

Even Hornby don't believe that possible or they'd be ploughing investment into OO Railroad rather than TT:120.  

 

If you would be content with a Black Five faked up in Jubilee livery, good luck to you but to me it would equate to putting remould tyres on a Bentley! I doubt that many share your desire. If you really want that you can get a cheap S/h one and paint it yourself..... 

 

John

[Ravenser]

20 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I think it would depend. If there was an accurate model of, say a Jubilee, available, alongside the cheaper, slightly less accurate version, there might not be the push back.

 

But if it was the only option available, then I think there would. 

 

 

And if the Jubilee was accurate , but less detailed?

 

Mischevous question

- when did Bachmann last release a Jubilee? ??

- and how many releases of a non-split chassis Jubilee did they issue??

 

My guess is that the cheapest option would be for Bachmann simply to re-run their existing tooling a few times. Nil R&D or tooling costs to recover.... (The only question is whether its been designed in a way that makes assembly expensive)

 

I suspect - without checking - that the model has not been released often enough for there to be a significant second hand market in the things.

 

And the old split chassis was notorious for failure and a pig to do DCC , so it's not a competitor second hand

 

Just re-release the thing. No need to invest in new tooling for anything - just re-run the existing OO Jubilee

 

We don't need everything retooled every 10-12 years, only for the new tools to be run 3 times and left in store....

[MartinRS]

I have seen two breakdowns by age of those participating in railway modeling. One had a very small sample size and both were self selected. The two surveys indicated that the majority of people involved in railway modelling are aged 60 or over. Without new entrants to railway modelling the hobby is facing a situation where the size of the market contracts and manufacturers have to make their profits from a smaller number of customers. The demographics of the present age range will also result in more secondhand products appearing on Ebay as modelers pass away. 

 

I have returned to modelling after a 30 year absence. I first became in involved in the hobby over 55 years ago. I suspect I'm not alone in returning to the hobby (for the second time). In the 1960s a train set was probably the best and most expensive present the average child could expect to receive, with the possible exception of a bike. One thing that concerns me is what people now in their 30s or 40s were doing as children. There has to be a point in time when the best toy was a PC or some sort of video game console. Railway modeling won't have a nostalgic pull for people below a certain age.

 

Unless the hobby expands it is in danger of disappearing and that would be a shame. It offers a chance for participants to develop artistic and technical skills and to engage in historical research. I can remember saving my pocket money to buy a Tri-ang B12. I don't know if today's children could save for a moderate size model locomotive. One post in this thread (no, I'm not going to look for it) suggested that the price inflation of model railway equipment, based on the Bank of England index, was far higher than other products. One way for manufacturers to get more people involved would be for them to make compromises, radical compromises, which would reduce development and production costs. I don't expect RMwebers to agree with me.
 

['CHARD]

18 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

 

One way for manufacturers to get more people involved would be for them to make compromises, radical compromises, which would reduce development and production costs. 
 

 

The search took seconds, to demonstrate that the market segment you refer to is already well-served.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Train-Set-Tracks-Battery-Operated/dp/B009P540O8/ref=asc_df_B009P540O8/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309819440071&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13666292274507883020&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045502&hvtargid=pla-562193575390&psc=1

[Andy Hayter]

@MartinRS

 

Andy Y's recent survey of 1000 people showed 41% as being 60 or over, so the world (at least here) is not quite as bad as you imagine.  It would be fair to say that this group is also self selecting but the sample size is not insignificant.

[Ravenser]

3 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

@MartinRS

 

Andy Y's recent survey of 1000 people showed 41% as being 60 or over, so the world (at least here) is not quite as bad as you imagine.  It would be fair to say that this group is also self selecting but the sample size is not insignificant.

 

It is also the case that over the last few years the demographic has shifted noticeably, with a significant number of new modellers in the hobby, aged in the 30-50 bracket , and possibly lower than that too.

 

The odd thing is that we did nothing to achieve this... After years of dire warnings like MartinRS 's , there's been a shift while we weren't taking any of the advice on what needed to be done.

 

In particular I've been reading for years that the shop window of the hobby is exhibitions , and that simple layouts where the trains run round and round all the time , are essential to recruit the next generation of the hobby!

 

However the hobby seems to have recruited strongly from the target demographic during 2 years when there were no exhibitions at all.

 

And when every model shop in the country was physically closed to prospective customers for long periods of time.

 

People will have their own takes on TT:120 , but launching an entire new scale specifically targetted at new entrants from this demographic, and those of the very fringes of the hobby is pretty radical action in anyone's book.

 

We will see what happens, but we are left with the options:

 

- "Radical action" may inflict more damage on the hobby as it is than it does good in terms of bringing in new blood to sustain the hobby for the future

- Radical action has already been taken - so there is no need for inaccurate heavily compromised models  (Hornby have not taken that route with TT:120)

 

And one point should be made vigourously. Models that don't run well are a liability and will drive people out of the hobby. "Super detail" also meant a massive mechanical upgrade , which was a huge gain to everyone. Most 20th century mechanisms were fairly basic -  and so was their running

[RichardT]

1 hour ago, MartinRS said:

The two surveys indicated that the majority of people involved in railway modelling are aged 60 or over. Without new entrants to railway modelling the hobby is facing a situation where the size of the market contracts

I was reading articles in the model railway press saying exactly this in the early 1990s. Train sets haven’t been must-have toys for children since at least then, and the modellers who were in their sixties then (always the largest cohort) will now be ninety plus, so the hobby has obviously now died out.
 

Oh, hang on…

 

”New entrants” don’t have to be school-age: so long as there’s a steadyish supply of new fifty-somethings looking to take up an absorbing multi-faceted hobby then railway modelling will have a future.  Model railways are, largely, a hobby for which you need a reasonable disposable income, so recruitment later in life is always more likely.

 

The issue is making the hobby welcoming to those who don’t have 55 years experience of tinkering about and practice. That means reliable kit that works well first time, and ways of learning modelling techniques that don’t assume a lifetime’s familiarity with hand tools and low voltage wiring.

 

YMMV

 

RichardT

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, MartinRS said:

I have seen two breakdowns by age of those participating in railway modeling. One had a very small sample size and both were self selected. The two surveys indicated that the majority of people involved in railway modelling are aged 60 or over. Without new entrants to railway modelling the hobby is facing a situation where the size of the market contracts and manufacturers have to make their profits from a smaller number of customers. The demographics of the present age range will also result in more secondhand products appearing on Ebay as modelers pass away. 

 

I have returned to modelling after a 30 year absence. I first became in involved in the hobby over 55 years ago. I suspect I'm not alone in returning to the hobby (for the second time). In the 1960s a train set was probably the best and most expensive present the average child could expect to receive, with the possible exception of a bike. One thing that concerns me is what people now in their 30s or 40s were doing as children. There has to be a point in time when the best toy was a PC or some sort of video game console. Railway modeling won't have a nostalgic pull for people below a certain age.

 

Unless the hobby expands it is in danger of disappearing and that would be a shame. It offers a chance for participants to develop artistic and technical skills and to engage in historical research. I can remember saving my pocket money to buy a Tri-ang B12. I don't know if today's children could save for a moderate size model locomotive. One post in this thread (no, I'm not going to look for it) suggested that the price inflation of model railway equipment, based on the Bank of England index, was far higher than other products. One way for manufacturers to get more people involved would be for them to make compromises, radical compromises, which would reduce development and production costs. I don't expect RMwebers to agree with me.

 

 

 

I have done an analysis of age distribution and the development of age distribution in the thread showing the survey and its results - page 13.  

 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/176955-modeller-survey-2023/page/13/

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Andy Hayter

[Phil Parker]

21 minutes ago, RichardT said:

”New entrants” don’t have to be school-age: so long as there’s a steadyish supply of new fifty-somethings looking to take up an absorbing multi-faceted hobby then railway modelling will have a future.  Model railways are, largely, a hobby for which you need a reasonable disposable income, so recruitment later in life is always more likely.

 

I've long argued for this. While exposing "da kidz" to the hobby in a positive way won't hurt, the modellers are likely to arrive somewhat older once they have settled down and need a break from driving a spreadhseet all day.

 

22 minutes ago, RichardT said:

The issue is making the hobby welcoming to those who don’t have 55 years experience of tinkering about and practice. That means reliable kit that works well first time, and ways of learning modelling techniques that don’t assume a lifetime’s familiarity with hand tools and low voltage wiring.

 

Such as the excellent DJH begineers kits, that I love, but am told are too expensive for beginners who need some old tat from the 60s where the two halves of the boiler are different lengths - but it's cheeeeeep. Making something simple to assemble takes more R&D than something that will need "fettling", which pushes the price up. Mind you, compared to modern RTR, those DJH kits don't look so scary now.

[Legend]

I think people are being deliberately mischievous here . No one is talking about a Black 5 , painted red masquerading as a Jubilee , Hornby did that back in 1980s!   But, by the way , I still run my Mainline "Leander" and it looks like a Jubilee to me .  I also run a Bachmann 108 that purports to be a Strathclyde Class 107 as a special commission from Rail Magazine . It sold out I think . So it shows we are willing to make some compromises and this is the spirit of this thread I think , not the battery operated train linked above !

 

A more sensible view is that from jjb1970 who has pointed out full spec and lower spec  EF81 from Tomix .  I think this what the OP was originally proposing . Dimensionally correct , good decoration but with none of the bells an whistles !

Edited February 6, 2023 by Legend
Rail Magazine not Rails

[MartinRS]

2 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

It would be fair to say that this group is also self selecting but the sample size is not insignificant.

In my posting I mentioned two surveys. The small sample survey is not on RMweb.

[Geep7]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

the modellers are likely to arrive somewhat older once they have settled down and need a break from driving a spreadhseet all day.

This is why I am so glad I have a hobby such as ours. I spend all day (well most of the day) staring at a computer screen, and the last thing I really should be doing is spending the rest of my evening staring at another large rectangular object which displays varying quality of programming. I really find doing some modelling an escape from day to day life. I would count myself as one of those rare modellers who has continued modelling thoughout since my teenage years, except for a short spell while at Uni. However, I have noticed that since my son has been getting older (he's now 11), i've been finding my spare time stretched, so less modelling has been happening over the past few years. I'm sure, once he's at college / uni (hopefully), i'll be wondering what to do with all this free time i've suddenly got.

[MartinRS]

4 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

 

The search took seconds, to demonstrate that the market segment you refer to is already well-served.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Train-Set-Tracks-Battery-Operated/dp/B009P540O8/ref=asc_df_B009P540O8/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309819440071&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13666292274507883020&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045502&hvtargid=pla-562193575390&psc=1

A cheap throw away toy is certainly not the market segment I was refering to. The product you have linked to runs on a couple of AA batteries, probably on plastic track, so it would be difficult to see how it could form the start of a collection of model railway equipment. I was thinking about something similar to the old Tri-ang RS.24 Pick Up Goods set.
 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Geep7 said:

i'll be wondering what to do with all this free time i've suddenly got.

 

As I suspect most of my fellow retirees will cheerfully assert, what is this  free time of which you speak?  You'll be wondering where it went, not what to do with it, I guarantee! 

 

Free time diminishes in direct inverse proportion to the amount of time you apparently have avaialble; I know this is counterintuitive, but the relatively unstructured life of not having to attend a workplace after a rush-hour struggle coupled with the unexpected fact that everybody who is aware that you are retired assumes that you have infinite time available to assist or accompany them in their activities, and that you will inevitably spend more time in cooking and eating better meals, all conspire to eat into your supposedly endless leisure capacity. 

 

Time appears to speed up as you age as well, partly because your concept of time is based on the overall amount of time you have been alive for.  Remember those endless classroom afternoons staring longling out of the window at the lovely summer weather?  Or how long it took for xmas and birthdays to come around?  If you are 10 years old, a year is 10% of your entire life so far, and when you are 50 years old it is 20%, so time 'feels' twice as fast.  I'm 71 in a few weeks, and it is starting to feel as if it is rushing by now!  When I was 10, 1962, 1960 seemed a very long time in the past, and now remembering a decade ago feels like less than that.  I haven't got time for anything, I'm in a worse rush now than when I was working; of course, I'm not really, but it doesn't always feel like that.

 

And then, eventually, at last, the final, inevitable, merciful release, great to have something to look forward to.  It's being so cheerful as keeps me going, you know...

Edited February 6, 2023 by The Johnster

['CHARD]

1 hour ago, MartinRS said:

A cheap throw away toy is certainly not the market segment I was refering to. The product you have linked to runs on a couple of AA batteries, probably on plastic track, so it would be difficult to see how it could form the start of a collection of model railway equipment. I was thinking about something similar to the old Tri-ang RS.24 Pick Up Goods set.
 

 

What I was pointing out though, is that the major player(s) in the hobby today are no longer fulfilling the roles they used to when train sets were the norm and, crucially perhaps, the availability of such cheap toys from the likes of Amazon was unheard of. 

 

The majors can't compete in a race to the bottom, this is evident. So it's through cheap toys that interest could be kindled, and when it's time and if the interest is sustained, the youngsters can graduate to Hornby.  My contention is that it's not the responsibility of Hornby or others to sell stuff at pocket-money prices; that's not the market-place they're in, and in reality, it possibly never really was.

[MartinRS]

3 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

My contention is that it's not the responsibility of Hornby or others to sell stuff at pocket-money prices; that's not the market-place they're in, and in reality, it possibly never really was.

Hornby Dublo was within the reach more affluent middle class families. Tri-ang (and Tri-ang Hornby) increased the number of families able to buy model railway products. I managed to save my pocket money to buy a loco and so did one other contributor to to this discussion. Cheap 'Made in Hong Kong' toys always competed with the likes of Tri-ang in the 1960s. I'm not suggesting that companies should participate in a race to the bottom. I just think that it ought to be possible to reach a point where there is a reasonably accurate representation of a prototype which would appeal to the wider public and some modellers. I don't see that happening at Hornby. Simon Khohler is obviously committed to producing accurate models and has said so in a number of TV programmes. (These are not toys, these are scale models was the phrase he used IIRC.) I suspect the only way models will fall in price is if some new entrant to the market challenges the present detail arms race, just as Tri-ang challenged Hornby in the past. That compromise ought to have reusability and recycling of existing designs so that economy of scale kicks in.

Edited February 6, 2023 by MartinRS
Typo

[BernardTPM]

3 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

What I was pointing out though, is that the major player(s) in the hobby today are no longer fulfilling the roles they used to when train sets were the norm and, crucially perhaps, the availability of such cheap toys from the likes of Amazon was unheard of.

Didn't need Amazon then. Your local corner shop would probably have something like this available.

Moving up a notch, but still cheaper than Tri-ang, Playcraft Railways were available in any branch of F. W. Woolworth & Co.

Edited February 6, 2023 by BernardTPM

[jjb1970]

One aspect which would be interesting to see data for is the size of the hobby.

 

We have an excellent diversity of suppliers releasing a steady stream of new releases, but what is the overall size of the UK model railway market?

 

Is it a case of ever more suppliers feeding a well heeled and lucrative but shrinking hobby? I don't know. Anecdotally and based on personal experience the hobby has shrunk but I'd love to see good figures, though those with an interest tend to have a greater interest and willingness to indulge themselves.

 

I see parallels with cameras and audio gear. There are still manufacturers making high quality camera and audio equipment, but they cater to a small professional market and an enthusiast market which is a shadow of what it once was, with a move towards much more expensive equipment sold in much smaller volumes. 

[BachelorBoy]

Kids love Lego trains.  Not much detail there.

 

[Nearholmer]

To be able to support segmentation, in this case into “basic” and “premium” ranges, a market needs to be pretty big, as the toy/model train market was in the early 1960s when Playcraft coexisted with Hornby Dublo (until the all the suppliers flooded the market with too much product and put one another out of business).

 

My perception is that the market currently isn’t big enough to allow that sort of segmentation (although there is segmentation by scales), and that the nature of the buyers tips it towards the “premium” end, big boys buying expensive toys.

 

Presumably, part of what Hornby are trying to do by introducing TT is to grow the market by accessing a community of customers who have priorities other than high-detail for which they are prepared to spend largish sums (or in extreme cases mega-mega detail for huge sums).

 

As a BTW, my other hobby is cycling, and that does have a big enough market to support several levels of price segmentation, with a “large volume, price sensitive” segment, part of which is about utility cycling rather than hobby cycling, catered for by Halfords and Evans in-house brands, and by some “never heard of it” cheap brands, then a stairway of increasingly fancy brands catering to “performance users” and/or those who get a buzz out of owning the fanciest machine for miles around. In that respect it is more like the car market.

 

In answer to the question posed in the thread title, and assuming that the “we” is adult enthusiasts buying for their own pleasure, who have been the primary buyers for donkeys years now: no, “we” certainly wouldn’t.
 

There are odd little niches of newly made “low-fi” in the form of Hornby Dublo/Wrenn style models in 00, and similar coarse-scale 0, but they aren’t cheaper than mainstream, largely because plastic tends to be seen as the material of the devil in those formats, with tin and cast metal being near compulsory.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Nearholmer

[fulton]

3 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

One aspect which would be interesting to see data for is the size of the hobby.

A bit away from mainstream, and a bit off topic, but I have been surprised how small some sections of the hobby are, quite a few years ago I bought an Impetus etched locomotive kit, really excellent kit, had it running on a friends layout a couple of months later, Robin, the Impetus owner seen it and remarked, that it was probably the first one built, and that he had sold one other kit, I asked how many kits he had produced, thinking 50, 100 maybe 200, no he had produced 12 kits.

[BachelorBoy]

Would we accept less detailed models?

 

Is it fair to say the consensus of this thread is "no"?

 

[johnofwessex]

10 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

Would we accept less detailed models?

 

Is it fair to say the consensus of this thread is "no"?

 

 

I suggest that the question is more like lets see it and how much are you charging?

[jjb1970]

Indeed, a simple yes/no is too blunt.

 

How much less detailed?

Less detailed but upgradeable?

What price?

What sort of build quality?

What prototype subjects?

 

And more. Depending on what is offered the answers may be different.