Would we accept less detailed models

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, Revolution Ben said:

I have seen quoted numbers suggesting that there are as many as 7 million N gauge enthusiasts in Japan, making it well over 100 times the size of that the UK market.

 

 

So at most 70,000 N gauge modellers in the UK........

[jjb1970]

The Japanese N manufacturers have mastered clever application of 'design clever' but the real key to why they can offer such excellent models at prices which look crazily low compared to European and US models is economies of scale as Ben highlights. 

 

That said, they do take a very different approach in which the key is capturing the overall look of the prototype and concentrating on what is seen. 

 

I think I am like a record with a scratch as I keep saying it, but if people do want to consider whether there is another way for model manufacturers and indeed the hobby as a whole then Japan is an excellent case study.

[Revolution Ben]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

So at most 70,000 N gauge modellers in the UK........

 

That would be my *very* approximate estimate, though it is almost impossible to say for sure.

 

A few years ago the NGS tended to accept the number of active N gauge enthusiasts was around the 50,000 mark, but the lockdown effect combined with increased, and positive, media exposure seems to have boosted numbers across the hobby over the last three years.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[The Johnster]

I believe there are something like 2 million railway enthusiasts of various sorts and degrees in the UK, a significant demographic.

[Neil]

8 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hi there,

 

The 800 is a lovely model but as you say Kato do save some money by using short-cuts like self-coloured bogies and underframes and minimising separately fitted parts (everything clips together, there is no glue) and by using common components adapted to their own bespoke DCC solution.

 

However, the relatively low price is almost entirely down to volume.  Their minimum production run of a single colour and numberset is known to be 10,000 units.  This only works because - as Mr Kato himself has acknowledged - the vast majority of their products sell to Kato fans in Japan.  Bear in mind Japan has a population twice that of the UK and that N there is the dominant scale.  I have seen quoted numbers suggesting that there are as many as 7 million N gauge enthusiasts in Japan, making it well over 100 times the size of that the UK market.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

Isn't this a bit reminiscent of Triang Hornby in the sixties and seventies, big production runs, few separate parts, no glue, etc.

[Dunsignalling]

12 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

Isn't this a bit reminiscent of Triang Hornby in the sixties and seventies, big production runs, few separate parts, no glue, etc.

 

It's basically "Design Clever" but without the botched and incoherent introduction....

 

Had Hornby got that right, this thread probably wouldn't need to exist. 😟

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[jjb1970]

I occasionally post pictures of some of my Shinkansen models in the Asia section of RMWeb (I really should get more out) when I put some Unitrack out for a running session. For anyone interested in the Japanese approach to models, it is here:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/175266-evolving-nose-contours-of-the-shinkansen/

 

 

['CHARD]

On 17/01/2023 at 18:22, The Johnster said:

 circumstanes 

 

Noun (Scots, archaic)

 

Historic landmark where an intimate surgical procedure is performed on male subjects.

[Mike_Walker]

I can understand the size of their home market but do the Japanese flock to buy models of British outline in large numbers in any scale/gauge?

[jjb1970]

1 minute ago, Mike_Walker said:

I can understand the size of their home market but do the Japanese flock to buy models of British outline in large numbers in any scale/gauge?

 

Not usually, no. However there is a niche for overseas models in Japan (especially US outline) and many people in Japan are genuinely proud that a Hitachi designed train was selected for the IEP requirement so they have taken the 800 to their hearts in a way which is not so typical. 

[Mike_Walker]

Whereas here they are probably the most hated trains on the network.  From the passengers' viewpoint they are uncomfortable, noisy and rough-riding (compared with what they replaced) whilst for the operators they are overly complex and expensive to operate to say nothing of them cracking up. 

 

I realise much of the blame for this can be laid at the door of the DfT who specified the things - not trusting experienced railway management to do it - and not at Hitachi's.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Mike_Walker

[Watto1990]

50 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

Not usually, no. However there is a niche for overseas models in Japan (especially US outline) and many people in Japan are genuinely proud that a Hitachi designed train was selected for the IEP requirement so they have taken the 800 to their hearts in a way which is not so typical. 

That rings true. I remember pre-pandemic often seeing Japanese tourists at Paddington taking photos of the GWR IEPs. 

[jjb1970]

41 minutes ago, Watto1990 said:

That rings true. I remember pre-pandemic often seeing Japanese tourists at Paddington taking photos of the GWR IEPs. 

 

The other bit of British railwayness which is popular in Japan is Thomas the Tank Engine, they're bonkers about TTE in Japan.

[Revolution Ben]

5 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

From the passengers' viewpoint they are uncomfortable.. <snipped>

 

That is subjective!  I had read that they were uncomfortable but having travelled from Exeter to Paddington and London to York and Newcastle on them I found the seats are very comfortable - nice and firm.

 

The ride quality is poorer than Mk3 stock though which, for me, is unsurpassed to me in terms of overall ride comfort.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Mike_Walker]

14 minutes ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

That is subjective!  I had read that they were uncomfortable but having travelled from Exeter to Paddington and London to York and Newcastle on them I found the seats are very comfortable - nice and firm.

 

The ride quality is poorer than Mk3 stock though which, for me, is unsurpassed to me in terms of overall ride comfort.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Each to their own as they say.  But you are in a very small minority!

[Chris M]

I have to agree with Ben. Although my trips on IETs have only been about an hour long I find the seats comfortable. In fact I find them to be a nice bright airy train. Better to travel in than the voyagers or Pendolinos.  I would agree they are not in the same class for comfort as the HST coaches which were quite sumptuous.

[The Johnster]

Passenger comfort is highly subjective and dependent on variables; driving smoothness, condition of seat and coach, passenger mood, noise, stress, all sorts.  So the following is my personal view, other views are available and might be better, despite being clearly wrong because they are not mine... 

 

The apex of passenger comfort was achieved with the air-conditioned mk2 first class seat, probably the most comfortable thing I have ever sat in in my life.  The ride was good and quiet as well, but the 2nd class began a trend that has continued to the present, inadequate cushioning and hard seats.  Trains, which had previously been looking to aircraft seats for guidance, now looked to local buses. 

 

The mk3s in good nick were a magic carpet ride, not bad even at 135mph (timed between Hullavington and Brinkworth), on air suspension.  No wonder the Pullmans couldn't hack it.  But they rapidly clotted their botty books by the frequency in which the handbrakes were left on and the wheels developed flats, drdrdrdrdrdrdrdrdrdrdrdrdr like a ****ing machine gun, complete with vibrations.  An 800 is quantum better than that!  A better handbrake system would have eliminated the issue, which must have cost in track repairs and wear in the coach.  And the 'window per seating bay' principle was lost in 2nd class in the interests of standardisation

 

800s are fine for shorter journeys, but there is nowhere near enough legroom, back support, distance between the seat and the table, or cushioning for longer ones.  It's a local bus, and so are all modern trains.  But the ride is ok, and they are quiet when the diesels are not running, warm, and not draughty.  The mk3s originally had droplights, and could be cold and draughty on winter days.

 

You want uncomfortable?  I once worked a Mystex from Swindon to Barry Island down from Swindon, two sets 12 coaches of Hastings demu units, via Box for some reason, flat out and managing the 47+10mk2 90mph timings.  The ride was, shall we say interesting, actually very good at least until the train began to move...  But it was a nice day and I had my head out the van droplight; that noise, climbing Filton and out of Severn Tunnel, magnificent!

 

That was a seriously good day out all round; Saturday rest day double time overtime, and my driver was a route pilot for a Three Bridges man who was completely enjoying the fast running.  At Barry Island, where we had 3 hours to kill, his first priority was the bookies outside the station, and he won enough to pay for a walk around the shows, fish & chip meal, and a pint in the 'Merry Friars' after a stroll along the prom and out on the headland.  Shame to take the money, really, not that I ever gave any of it back...

[newbryford]

On 24/01/2023 at 16:54, adb968008 said:

As a DC modeller I say exactly the same about DCC…

 

dont need any of it, i’ll take the $1 sprung buffers over DCC gubbins i’ll never use any day.

 

Making them DCC Ready fulfills sales to all - DC or DCC.

Most of the gubbins for lighting will be present on both forms - or do you not do lit locos?

 

DCC is, IMO, the fastest growing segment of the hobby, and any manufacturer would be foolish to ignore it.

Making just one variant (DCC ready) means sales to all.

 

It must be cheaper to make 10000 of one variant, rather than say 3500 of type A (DC only) and 6500 of type B (DCC ready)

And how would a manufacturer determine the split of the 10000 anyway?

Just make 10000 of DCC ready and everyone is happy.

Basic economies of scale?

 

TBH- I prefer the idea of DCC ready as opposed to DCC fitted as it gives the end user the choice of decoder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

BTW - if the models were cheaper, does that mean you would buy even more?

 

 

[adb968008]

Maybe we are reaching the time in modern image, that chassis are superfluous as we have too many locos, and just make bodies.

 

That would be cheaper.

 

You can multiple bodies for a single chassis.

 

(Thats how Ive downsized my fleet a little).

Edited January 30, 2023 by adb968008

[newbryford]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

Maybe we are reaching the time in modern image, that chassis are superfluous as we have too many locos, and just make bodies.

 

That would be cheaper.

 

(Thats how Ive downsized my fleet a little).

 

Wow - you must have sold a few locos, going off the number of 92s you bought 😉

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Wow - you must have sold a few locos, going off the number of 92s you bought 😉

As the bachelor, says to the bride…

 

 “I do”

 

I sell a good number every year, no hard / fast rule, but always more than my wife passes on shoes. Keeps me in credit.

 

But several classes ive sold off chassis / boxes and kept the bodies… swap them to suit.

 

Next up for me will be a pile of Hattons 66 spares as ive nearly sorted out, whats staying, going, been boneyarded.

 

But if whole locos are going up too much, and youve several already, you dont really need more chassis / boxes.. maybe thats a better route than dumbing down details ?

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

8 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

Each to their own as they say.  But you are in a very small minority!

 

I am not so sure about that. While many rail enthusiasts dislike the IET series I have to say the overwhelming majority of normals I have heard offer an opinion on them has been very positive.

 

I found the seats firm but not really uncomfortable, ride quality wasn't great but ride quality seems to have plummeted across the board. I used to commute between Milton Keynes and London and after the ride quality of the LM Class 350 trains anything feels acceptable (I found ride quality in the Southern Electrostars over the same route to be nicer).

 

I remember when Mk.3 coaches were derided. The truly awful intercity 70 seats, poor air-con, windows not aligned with seats, the brake smell etc, now they're acknowledged as a brilliant coach.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I remember when Mk.3 coaches were derided. The truly awful intercity 70 seats, poor air-con, windows not aligned with seats, the brake smell etc, now they're acknowledged as a brilliant coach.

Its a cultural British thing, anything thats old must be good.

[scottystitch]

16 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

That is subjective!  I had read that they were uncomfortable but having travelled from Exeter to Paddington and London to York and Newcastle on them I found the seats are very comfortable - nice and firm.

 

The ride quality is poorer than Mk3 stock though which, for me, is unsurpassed to me in terms of overall ride comfort.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Montrose to Kings Cross (in one go), multiple times, and I couldn't see what all the fuss was about in honesty. I actually found it was better for the posture than many other train seats and certainly nowhere near as uncomfortable as all the horror stores led me to believe.

 

Best

Scott.

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Its a cultural British thing, anything thats old must be good.

Or, from only a slightly different angle, most things get built down to progressively lower prices over time.

 

The original seats in HSTs weren't up to much, but got changed a number of times through their careers and later ones were very good indeed.

 

The seats in the 8xx units are cheap and nasty. Even if I personally don't find them uncomfortable, (though the longest I've spent in one is Reading - Exeter) I can appreciate why some do. Not everybody has a built-in cushion.😀

 

John