Would we accept less detailed models

[Legend]

1 hour ago, BachelorBoy said:

Kids love Lego trains.  Not much detail there.

 

 

 A lot of action though . Pretty expensive I think though , based solely on a quick browse in the Glasgow Lego Store

[JohnR]

33 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

Would we accept less detailed models?

 

Is it fair to say the consensus of this thread is "no"?

 

 

We might not, but is there a place for such within the hobby? I'd say thats a (qualified) Yes. 

[JohnR]

12 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

 A lot of action though . Pretty expensive I think though , based solely on a quick browse in the Glasgow Lego Store

 

I think part of that is down to the ability to actually PLAY with the trains, though.

 

My two boys always make a bee-line for the Lego trains at an exhibition (if present), simply because they are able to actually operate them themselves. I suspect they would have been as enthralled with Pete Waterman's layout at chester Cathedral if they had been able to go and operate the West coast main line themselves (as seen on last nights Hornby programme). 

 

But before anyone thinks its all just fast-moving trains running in circles, at the most recent exhibition I took them to, there was a small shunting puzzle layout, and both (aged 10 and 5) were again really enjoying operating it (taking turns), moving the wagons about the yard, operating the points by hand. 

[Andy Hayter]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

One aspect which would be interesting to see data for is the size of the hobby.

 

We have an excellent diversity of suppliers releasing a steady stream of new releases, but what is the overall size of the UK model railway market?

 

Is it a case of ever more suppliers feeding a well heeled and lucrative but shrinking hobby? I don't know. Anecdotally and based on personal experience the hobby has shrunk but I'd love to see good figures, though those with an interest tend to have a greater interest and willingness to indulge themselves.

 

I see parallels with cameras and audio gear. There are still manufacturers making high quality camera and audio equipment, but they cater to a small professional market and an enthusiast market which is a shadow of what it once was, with a move towards much more expensive equipment sold in much smaller volumes. 

 

I think before asking that question you have to define what the hobby is.

Does it include train sets on the living room carpet ?  I suppose today that is the laminate wood floor - which does have its advantages over a sh*g pile.  Even down to the battery plastic representation of nothing in particular on plastic rails?

Does it include collectors?  And what is a collector anyway?

 

Some observations from my own perspective.

I have seen it suggested that the UK hobby is between 80 - 120k but what these people spend per annum on the hobby is anyone's guess.  Manufacturers will have a better idea quite probably.

A late 1970s RM had a short article about Hornby re-releasing the Triang Rocket set.  Readers were urged to order theirs quickly because it was a limited edition of "only 3500 sets".   I sense that is closer to a standard run these days - though some popular items might be several times that.

Shops seem to have fewer train sets for sale - and the number of outlets has undoubtedly fallen dramatically*.  The Christmas/Birthday market would seem to have disappeared and yet Hornby continue to produce such sets.  Bachmann do as well but not at what I would call the entrance level with a simple small loco, couple of items of stock, oval of track, simple controller etc..  Someone is buying these, otherwise they would have disappeared from the catalogues. 

* But of course we must not forget the impact of direct sales and Amazon. 

Over the years the general quality of layouts at exhibition and in the press has improved greatly.  Without a doubt this is due to improvements in technology bring new and more detailed items to the market (which largely is what this thread is about).

 

So my conclusions are that the size of the hobby has probably shrunk.  Much of that could well be at the train set on the carpet end of the market - but do we know how many cheap Chinese marketed sets are sold?

 

Quality and detail has increased dramatically - and not just the models themselves: everything on our layouts.

 

And that leads me to ask; if people will pay up to £35 for an item of PECO code 100 pointwork - double that for code 75 bullhead, why are they then complaining about the price of stock to run on it, which in comparison would look to be not overly expensive?

[Ravenser]

23 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

 

The search took seconds, to demonstrate that the market segment you refer to is already well-served.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Train-Set-Tracks-Battery-Operated/dp/B009P540O8/ref=asc_df_B009P540O8/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309819440071&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13666292274507883020&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045502&hvtargid=pla-562193575390&psc=1

 

 

One curious fact about these dirt cheap plastic battery sets with crude "models" - the ones I've looked at seem to use a track gauge of 16mm-16.5mm

 

I don't know what we do with that fact, but it's there...

[jjb1970]

What is the hobby? That's also an interesting question in its own right.

 

I suppose like any hobby, it is whatever the individual wants it to be. Those running a Hornby trainset on the carpet and those modelling fine scale are much closer to each other in interests than the vast majority of the population. 

 

All my train running is just making temporary set-ups on the floor with Kato Unitrack in N, running my Japanese N. And I find it a lot of fun to play with Unitrack and just set up odd loops and strange shapes.

 

My OO/HO is largely stored except for a handful of locomotives on display. But I still consider myself to be part of the hobby.

[RJS1977]

3 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

Would we accept less detailed models?

 

Is it fair to say the consensus of this thread is "no"?

 

I would say (certainly from the earlier pages) that it's roughly 50:50.

[newbryford]

6 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

Kids and adults love Lego trains.  Not much detail there.

 

 

There FIFY 😀

[The Johnster]

8 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

I would say (certainly from the earlier pages) that it's roughly 50:50.

 

Ah, but are the :50 that want less detailed models wanting them because they think they will cost less?  I ask because, if this is the case, they are clinging to a vain hope, as we have seen that the cost reduction of producing less detailed models is very unlikely to produce the sort of price reduction that would attract such customers.  And, even on a basic model, the running must be good, so no savings can be made on mechs, gearing, or motors. 

 

And I can't imagine anyone wanting a less detailed model that didn't cost significanty less than it's full-fat equivalent.  We already have this in the difference in price between DC ready and DC fitted/sound fitted models, but I can't see the market accepting further simplification.  A Hornby Peckett W4 costs about £100, while the much cruder L&Y pug, a broadly similar concept, comes in at about £70, which to my pov is barely scratching the inside edge of 'significantly less'.  You save £30 but at the penalty of a cab full of obvious motor and poor running.  I'm an impoverished pensioner, but I have a W4 and would go for this over the pug every time.  The pug is a constant pollution of my existence, while the W4 is life-affirming.

[Halvarras]

31 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The pug is a constant pollution of my existence, while the W4 is life-affirming.

 

Replace the loco references and how many areas of life could we apply this interesting statement to?! 😀

 

A certain Cornish retailer currently has a few 'Niclausse' W4s - the unpopular one with 'Hornby's best guess' mismatched green cab - which undercut your Pug price by a fiver at the moment. This vs Pug = no contest.........unless one needs a Pug of course.........

 

Generally speaking though, I can't be the only one who gets constant reminders that there's a 'time vs money' equation when it comes to highly detailed models - spend a lot of time detailing and repainting an economical average model yourself, or spend a lot of money on a box-to-track modern RTR model. It's not necessarily quite that simple - some with enough money to buy new RTR will still take the other path for the challenge and satisfaction of "I did that!" - plus there's the advantage of creating a 'bespoke' version in the process. It's how I ended up with a Hornby 29/A1 Kits model of Class 22 D6307 with protruding headcode boxes, and have another H29/Bachmann combo representing the solitary disc headcode-fitted D6123 awaiting the paintshop (hopefully this year.....!)

[jjb1970]

Good running should be a given. I remember when as part of 'design clever' Hornby said they were going to switch from 5 pole skew wound motors to three pole and the backlash it caused. However I found that the models said to have 3 pole motors had equivalent performance to the older presumably more expensive motors and Bachmann had used 3 pole motors with flywheels very successfully. 

[Mark Saunders]

9 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

Good running should be a given. I remember when as part of 'design clever' Hornby said they were going to switch from 5 pole skew wound motors to three pole and the backlash it caused. However I found that the models said to have 3 pole motors had equivalent performance to the older presumably more expensive motors and Bachmann had used 3 pole motors with flywheels very successfully. 

 

I seem to recall the introduction of five pole motors as a marketing gimmick that was in line with added extras in cars at the time!

[cctransuk]

13 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

Good running should be a given. I remember when as part of 'design clever' Hornby said they were going to switch from 5 pole skew wound motors to three pole and the backlash it caused. However I found that the models said to have 3 pole motors had equivalent performance to the older presumably more expensive motors and Bachmann had used 3 pole motors with flywheels very successfully. 

 

I have a LOT of locos, bought / built over many years, and the vast majority have three pole motors.

 

All run very well - if a loco does not do so, the LAST thing to check is whether the motor has three or five poles!

 

CJI.

[jjb1970]

I think it's one of those 'more is better' marketing tools. Running qualities derive from the overall drive arrangement  and aspects such as installation, transmission (including gear ratio) and pick-ups are critical.

 

[John M]

On 07/02/2023 at 05:45, MartinRS said:

A cheap throw away toy is certainly not the market segment I was refering to. The product you have linked to runs on a couple of AA batteries, probably on plastic track, so it would be difficult to see how it could form the start of a collection of model railway equipment. I was thinking about something similar to the old Tri-ang RS.24 Pick Up Goods set.
 

Cheap tinplate 'throw away toy' train sets  and the Lego Train I received as Christmas presents as a young child in the 60s were the first steps in my journey towards railway modelling when I selected a Triang-Hornby set and battery controller as a Christmas present when I was 12-13. 

 

The throw away sets were exactly that tin plate, O gauge, battery powered most likely made in Hong Kong caricatures of American steam and diesel trains, did not last long as I quickly dismantled them. Interestingly a cheap plastic G Gauge train set available in the late 2000s from a major low-cost retailer was a popular starting point for serious G gauge model modellers, in a similar manner to the Triang Big-Big train in the 60s

 

Interestingly when it comes to model railway our local hobby shops cater primarily for teenagers and new entrants to the hobby with the more basic Hornby models and setrack, with a good stock of train sets for Christmas, older established railway modeller's tend to buy their models on-line from specialist model railway stockists.

[jjb1970]

This is my latest toy which landed from Japan today. An 8 car Kintetsu Railway Series 80000 EMU in N, it is a full 8 car set.

 

This may show the Japanese 'design clever' approach.

 

Separate parts are minimal. Pantographs are poseable (the Japanese philosophy is to use masts with no wires). Underframe details are what is visible when looking at the vehicles on the track.

 

But, finish is superb, shape is excellent and overall impression is splendid. I have not been able to run this yet but experience with Tomix mechanisms and running qualities is they are equivalent to Kato. Which is high praise. Packaging and presentation feels very premium in the usual Japanese book set style.

 

Price, including express delivery to Singapore and Singapore GST was S$220, which is about £138. And it is made in Japan.

 

Would British modellers accept this sort of approach in N if the models were sold at these prices? The real key to these prices is economies of scale, but Japan has a sort of virtuous circle (large market - higher production, costs amortized over much higher sales - high quality and very attractive prices) and part of their product strategy is prioritising running qualities and overall impression on a layout, spending money where it makes a difference for those who run their models.

 

Chinese N gauge models are much more detailed, lots of separate parts, full underframe detail etc (Chinese outline models are some of the finest in the world, outstanding) but they're an awful lot more expensive.

 

Personally I am very happy with the Japanese approach to N.

 

 

[Budgie]

19 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Would British modellers accept this sort of approach in N if the models were sold at these prices? The real key to these prices is economies of scale, but Japan has a sort of virtuous circle (large market - higher production, costs amortized over much higher sales - high quality and very attractive prices) and part of their product strategy is prioritising running qualities and overall impression on a layout, spending money where it makes a difference for those who run their models.

 

I would.

[rob D2]

On 13/01/2023 at 10:48, AY Mod said:

You're thinking too tame! A Facebook brain donor posted this yesterday in response to one of Hornby's posts:

 

 

From https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=552390533575163&set=a.493244886156395

 

What a melt.

His profile says “ in training with MOD “.

 

Presumably the next general 

[BachelorBoy]

On 17/02/2023 at 00:02, rob D2 said:

What a melt.

His profile says “ in training with MOD “.

 

Presumably the next general 

 

 

Actually, as Hornby has lost so much money over the years, the shareholders are in effect subsidising customers. 

 

[rob D2]

I wouldn’t.

Weve spent years hoping for better models , and marvelled at the level of accuracy now achieved . Unless they could halve the cost of each model , I wouldn’t see it as worth it , and I don’t expect substituting moulded handrails for separate or such like will do this and we’ve had “ design clever “ already .

 

So I buy what I can , and there are some bargains still to be had where the market won’t hold the RRP of what is being delivered ( cue Bachmann 37/47 from over £200 slipping down near 170 ish ).