Unlit Passenger Platforms

[Wickham Green too]

I seem to recall a number of minor stations not having train services after dark as they had no lighting ........... yet I passed through blacked-out Meopham twice yesterday evening and the train stopped each time : the fact that there were no platform lights and alighting passengers should take extra care was announced on the station at Bromley South and onboard both ways. Should we have been allowed to stop - or has the Nanny State relented on this matter ?

 

[Wheatley]

You can't timetable a service to call after dark at a  station which has no lighting, but if lighting is temporarily not working then it's up to the operator to do a risk assessment and/or have  a  contingency plan. Which might, as here, be as  simple as  warning passengers that there  are no lights and to take care.

 

At a more complex station that might not be acceptable; when the lights went off at York a couple of years ago the  station was closed other than to those trains already boarded  and waiting to depart, but everything after that ran through without stopping or was terminated short until Northern Power Grid fixed the fault. The  signalling was off a separate supply and was unaffected.    

[phil-b259]

I have seen it mentioned in control logs before that a train has remained in the platform until all passengers have vacated said platform using the light from the train windows to navigate safely to the exit. This situation is normally due to the station being unstaffed and its a stopping train which reports the issue in the first place.

 

In cases of a prolonged outage then trains will typically be instructed to pass through non stop till the lighting has been fixed.

[Michael Hodgson]

In the good old days, it was considered perfetly acceptable to have an unstaffed halt with a single oil lamp mounted on the fence at the back of the platform, with instructions to the guard of the last train of the day to extinguish the lamp once any passenger(s) had left.  They would be walking home on unlit country lanes anyway.

[62613]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

In the good old days, it was considered perfetly acceptable to have an unstaffed halt with a single oil lamp mounted on the fence at the back of the platform, with instructions to the guard of the last train of the day to extinguish the lamp once any passenger(s) had left.  They would be walking home on unlit country lanes anyway.

In a far less litiginous world, too! Even unlit country lanes are busy with traffic these days; there's one near me where you have to be on the qui vive for people in the carriageway on the pathless bits, at night

[Michael Hodgson]

14 minutes ago, 62613 said:

In a far less litiginous world, too! Even unlit country lanes are busy with traffic these days; there's one near me where you have to be on the qui vive for people in the carriageway on the pathless bits, at night

It's just as nerve-wracking to be a pedestrian on an unlit road these days.  You have to be prepared to dive into the hedge if some idiot is coming along much faster than is safe in the conditions.  And if they're in an electric vehicle you can't hear it coming - at least you could hear a drunken equestrian galloping home in the dark.

[Mark Saunders]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

It's just as nerve-wracking to be a pedestrian on an unlit road these days.  You have to be prepared to dive into the hedge if some idiot is coming along much faster than is safe in the conditions.  And if they're in an electric vehicle you can't hear it coming - at least you could hear a drunken equestrian galloping home in the dark.

 

It would help if Pedestrians would walk facing oncoming traffic and wear something light rather than the stealth clothing most tend to wear!

[jjb1970]

These days in Britain I suspect people are more worried about the safety risks from other people at night in unlit areas. It's bad enough in well illuminated areas at night in some places. And it's not just nanny-state mollycoddling to question the wisdom of people moving around unlit railway stations in the dark, especially given the intensity of operations on much of the network. It's entirely foreseeable that people could have any number of nasty accidents. 

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

In the good old days, it was considered perfetly acceptable to have an unstaffed halt with a single oil lamp mounted on the fence at the back of the platform, with instructions to the guard of the last train of the day to extinguish the lamp once any passenger(s) had left.  They would be walking home on unlit country lanes anyway.

Not just an unstaffed halt but many a local station.  There was, for many years, an instruction applicable to Durrington-on-Sea at which the last train booked to call was allowed 2 minutes rather than the then-standard 20 seconds "For the guard to extinguish station lights and lock station".  That would be just one example.  

 

"An issue with the station lighting" is a standard announcement which is triggered by entering the appropriate code; it will then be broadcast to all stations at which a train affected is booked to call as that train approaches.  You hear "This train will not be calling at Little Nuttingford today; this is due to an issue with the station lighting".  

 

Usually reported by a previous train but sometimes by a passenger (using the help point or - if they are very enterprising - the signal post telephone) it then becomes the responsibility of the controlling location to make a call on whether trains may be allowed to stop or not.  In some cases having more than a certain number of lights defective on the station or on a particular platform is sufficient to result in stops being cancelled on safety grounds.  

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

In cases of a prolonged outage then trains will typically be instructed to pass through non stop till the lighting has been fixed.

My down train called about 19.35 and the return about 22.35 ...... three hours ( plus ) was obviously not sufficiently prolonged in this case !

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

"An issue with the station lighting" is a standard announcement which is triggered by entering the appropriate code; it will then be broadcast to all stations at which a train affected is booked to call as that train approaches.  You hear "This train will not be calling at Little Nuttingford today; this is due to an issue with the station lighting". 

 

So what about passengers using the return half of their Little Nuttingford tickets?

Are you laying on taxis from Greater Nuttingford which has a working electric light ?

And is it taking them home or just dumping them outside the station they hurtled through half an hour ago?

And are they going to catch a train or the bus next time they want to go town?

The bus stop probably doesn't have any lights either.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

Just now, Michael Hodgson said:

 

So what about passengers using the return half of their Little Nuttingford tickets?

Are you laying on taxis from Greater Nuttingford which has a working electric light ?

And is it taking them home or just dumping them outside the station they hurtled through half an hour ago?

And are they going to catch a train or the bus next time they want to go town?

The bus stop probably doesn't have any lights either.

 

 

Obviously a different matter if the lights go out at Bank Underground station of course.

[phil-b259]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

So what about passengers using the return half of their Little Nuttingford tickets?

Are you laying on taxis from Greater Nuttingford which has a working electric light ?

And is it taking them home or just dumping them outside the station they hurtled through half an hour ago?

And are they going to catch a train or the bus next time they want to go town?

The bus stop probably doesn't have any lights either.

 

 

Your train ticket represents a legal contract with the train operator so if a station has to be closed due to insufficient lighting then the TOC is legally obliged to provide a taxi to / from the closed station to one which is open - or at the very least re-imbuse the passenger for any taxis they have to arrange themselves.

 

Bus stops are not the legal responsibility of the TOC - (not sure whether responsibility rests with local authorities or bus companies) so the lack of any lighting is not legally speaking their problem - particularly if the bus stop doesn't have any in the first place.

[stewartingram]

5 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

In the good old days, it was considered perfetly acceptable to have an unstaffed halt with a single oil lamp mounted on the fence at the back of the platform, with instructions to the guard of the last train of the day to extinguish the lamp once any passenger(s) had left.  They would be walking home on unlit country lanes anyway.

Local buses stop at unlit bus stops in the country - what is the difference? I would say that is more risky, a train runs on a distinct path (rails), road traffic doesn't (and the drivers are less well trained and monitored in their driving standards).

Edited January 20, 2023 by stewartingram

[Wheatley]

14 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Local buses stop at unlit bus stops in the country - what is the difference? 

The bus company owes you no further Duty of Care once you step off their property (the bus) onto someone else's (everything which is not the bus), other than to not run you over with the bus as they pull away. You become the local authority's problem at that point (assuming the bus stop is on a public road). 

 

The TOC owes you a Duty of Care until you leave their station. 

[009 micro modeller]

I remember a few months ago being on a Thameslink/Great Northern train coming home from work, which weren’t able to call at several stations due to lighting going out (caused by significant power cuts). Annoyingly each station seemed to go out just before we got to it although fortunately I was only one stop beyond my normal station when I was able to get off. Arguably this was quite appropriate though, given that at least two of the stations had island platforms with the fast lines directly across from the face the train was calling at, and exits involving a footbridge. I don’t know Meopham but it seems to only have two tracks with side platforms, so possibly safer?

 

Edit: in that case I think the plan was to rig up some form of temporary lighting at some stations and to either arrange ticket acceptance on local buses or provide rail replacement buses, though obviously they couldn’t do this immediately. I was on the train as the power cuts were happening and I think at the time it was unclear how long it would be until power was restored.

Edited January 20, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[DK123GWR]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

These days in Britain I suspect people are more worried about the safety risks from other people at night in unlit areas. It's bad enough in well illuminated areas at night in some places. And it's not just nanny-state mollycoddling to question the wisdom of people moving around unlit railway stations in the dark, especially given the intensity of operations on much of the network. It's entirely foreseeable that people could have any number of nasty accidents. 

Perhaps the libertarians amongst us who are unmoved by concerns for passengers' safety might be moved by concerns for the wellbeing of their families? Or the people who witness the accident (especially the driver)? Or perhaps the people who have to clean up? Or, what is trivial to the rest of us, but might be decisive to them, by the economic inefficiency and restrictions on their freedom of movement that might result from the temporary closure of the line in the aftermath?

[stivesnick]

One of  the differences between railway station platforms and most bus stops is the much larger drop off the platform edge. Suitable lighting is one of the basic safety requirements for stations.

 

In contrast one of the stops on the Cambridge Busway is at Fen Drayton RSPB reserve has no lighting at all. Although there are few visitors to the reserve after dark, people do use it to get to the village along an unlit track. The busway is also subject to ROGS (railway and other guided systems) so it should have lighting.

 

Nick 

[stewartingram]

40 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

The bus company owes you no further Duty of Care once you step off their property (the bus) onto someone else's (everything which is not the bus), other than to not run you over with the bus as they pull away. You become the local authority's problem at that point (assuming the bus stop is on a public road). 

 

The TOC owes you a Duty of Care until you leave their station. 

I fully accept all that 'ownership & responsibility'. but Ithe point I was making - why the difference in thinking? Seems to be the usual difference between rail and road as usual, but society just accepts it.

[Michael Hodgson]

5 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

society just accepts it.

 

No.  Society just has to put up with it because the transport operators do whatever they decide to do.

Any legal inconsistencies which cause different types of business respond differently to similar problems are down to legislative anomalies and historic legal decisions.  Politicans and Lawyers have a lot to answer for - but then of course, a lot of politicans are lawyers.

 

But if people are subject to too much inconvenience, they will vote with their feet.  It's one of the main reasons why so many who can afford a car choose to own one and use it.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Your train ticket represents a legal contract with the train operator so if a station has to be closed due to insufficient lighting then the TOC is legally obliged to provide a taxi to / from the closed station to one which is open - or at the very least re-imbuse the passenger for any taxis they have to arrange themselves.

Trouble is theres never a lawyer at an unlit station when you want one.

 

So you’d be better off burning a £20 to see where you are going, than spending it trying to find a refund from a TOC.

Edited January 20, 2023 by adb968008

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, stewartingram said:

why the difference in thinking?

 

2 hours ago, stivesnick said:

One of  the differences between railway station platforms and most bus stops is the much larger drop off the platform edge. Suitable lighting is one of the basic safety requirements for stations.

 

Asked and answered.

[Re6/6]

Going on a bit of a tangent, back in day when I was working at Totnes, we had a leading railman who was an ex-signalman from Brent Box who had a rather 'economical' attitude to the use of platform lighting. When he was on middle turn, passengers would be waiting under the dim light of two lamps and when the 'Cardiff' ran in at 1825 the remaining lights would be switched on 'plink..plink..plink' as it ran in and the he would extinguish the lights in the same manner during departure!

 

When coming on duty at Brent Box it was said that he used to take coals out of the fire which had been banked up by the man on duty before him! One would think that he was paying for the electric and the coal. Dear old Jack, he was a character.

[Wickham Green too]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 ... you’d be better off burning a £20 to see where you are going, ...

Of course, there's the general belief among those 'in authority' that every man jack of us is firmly attached to a smart-phone so has every possible tool - such as a torch - readily to hand .............................. unfortunately, until it becomes a legal requirement to carry a tracking device 'phone at all times that'll not be the case. ( probably not then, either )

[Michael Hodgson]

28 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

. ( probably not then, either )

 

.   and not necessarily got any charge left in its battery !