Peco TT:120 7 Plank Open Wagons

[Les1952]

My local shop rang this morning to say Peco had emailed them the price and to confirm my pre-order.

 

Les

 

[BernardTPM]

5 hours ago, Geep7 said:

Possibly my imagination, but something in my mind thinks that the original TT Peco wagon kits were 17/6 in pre-decimalisation money.... but it's probably just my mind playing tricks.... just seems an oddly specific price point though to not be a coincidence if I am remembering rightly....

5/9 in the December 1962 RM, about 29p (equivalent to about £5.17 BoE inflation adjusted).

[Steamport Southport]

Now in stock.

 

Disappointingly pale shade of grey on the GWR wagon.

 

For those that doubt their authenticity....

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited October 20, 2023 by Steamport Southport

[HSB]

I find it strange that they come with 3-hole disc wheels rather than the spoked wheels these wagons normally had. Overall I think these wagons are a reasonable first effort from PECO although some of the detail is not quite as fine as on the Hornby vehicles (the 'V' hangars are a lot thicker) but they will look fine running on a layout, especially with a bit of weathering.

[Graham_Muz]

On 18/10/2023 at 18:08, Geep7 said:

Possibly my imagination, but something in my mind thinks that the original TT Peco wagon kits were 17/6 in pre-decimalisation money.... but it's probably just my mind playing tricks.... just seems an oddly specific price point though to not be a coincidence if I am remembering rightly....

The price is based on the Peco RRP less 10% 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

Disappointingly pale shade of grey on the GWR wagon.

 

For those that doubt their authenticity...

 

It is inauthentic since the model appears to represent an RCH 1923 specification 12 ton wagon, 16' 6" over headstocks with oil axleboxes, while this Gloucester wagon of 1910 on hire to the Great Western is also a 12 ton wagon (as Jason points out), but 16' 0" over headstocks with grease axleboxes:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of HMRS photo ACG921]

 

(The board on the left gives internal dimensions.)

 

The frustrating thing is, there are oodles of private owner liveries that were worn by RCH 1923 specification wagons; why couldn't they choose one of those? What Peco are doing is equivalent to painting a Stanier LMS locomotive in Caledonian Railway livery. 

 

Considering the Peco product as a model of an RCH 1923 wagon, I repeat my question, where's the middle hinge strap on the end door? 

 

While I'm fuming:

 

The prototype of the Huntley & Palmer wagon is another Gloucester 10 ton wagon, built in 1908, and just 15' 0" over headstocks, side doors only, with grease axleboxes.

 

The prototype of the Cadbury wagon was built by Birmingham RC&W Co. in 1909, also 15' 0" over headstocks, side doors only, with grease axleboxes.

 

The prototype of the Colmans wagon was built by Hurst Nelson in 1901, a 10 ton wagon which I think is 16' 0" over headstocks. Grease axleboxes, but at least this one has an end door. The livery in the reference photo is a bit suspect:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of HMRS photo ABN908]

 

Hurst Nelson was given to photographing wagons in a "photographic" livery; the wagons as delivered to the customer were not so gaudy, though it does appear these Colman's wagons were yellow. As a sanity check, here's their official photo of a wagon for Denaby Main Colliery:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of HMRS photo ABN432]

 

And NBR livery this most certainly is not:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of HMRS photo ABQ107].

Edited October 20, 2023 by Compound2632

[Steamport Southport]

12 Tons on the photograph....

 

Whilst I agree, I reckon if you were really going to be bothered about total authenticity then you would be modelling in 7mm rather than something as small as TT. Most people will be happy with a representation of wagons that "look" right.

 

I'm more irked at the livery colour error seeing as even Dapol get that right!

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

39 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

12 Tons on the photograph....

 

Doh. (Corrected in post.) But not the same dimensions as a 1923 wagon.

 

39 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I reckon if you were really going to be bothered about total authenticity then you would be modelling in 7mm rather than something as small as TT. 

 

You should see some of the stuff that's done in 2 mm FS! (As I'm sure you have.) But one can get it right enough at 4 mm scale, though the RTR manufacturers have been at their silly games for years.

 

39 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Most people will be happy with a representation of wagons that "look" right.

 

And also of engines that "look" right? This sums up TT120 for me - it's an attempt to turn the clock back to the RTR standards of the 1970s.

 

39 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I'm more irked at the livery colour error seeing as even Dapol get that right!

 

But seriously, ceasing to rant, I do wonder how close Gloucester's "Dark Lead Color" was to the colour of a wagon newly out of the Swindon paint shop. Other GW hire wagons they turned out black.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Compound2632

[markw]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Considering the Peco product as a model of an RCH 1923 wagon, I repeat my question, where's the middle hinge strap on the end door? 

And why is the door protector horizontal when it should be vertical.

 

Neither of these errors are on their n-gauge version.

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, markw said:

And why is the door protector horizontal when it should be vertical.

 

I'd not spotted that. Weird. 

[Porfuera]

In case anyone is interested, here is a small review of the Peco wagons by Garry Hall on Facebook on the Hornby TT:120 Group (which I think is open to everyone) - I hope the link works!

 

Garry is quite a prolific poster on TT:120 groups on Facebook (including building his own locos from 3D printed bodies and I think scratch-built chassis) so I think his opinion is worth listening to.

 

A brief summary would be that the wheelbase is correct at 9', the Peco wagons look and run as well as Hornby's but that Peco's couplings don't seem to work as well as Hornby's (from the photos they don't appear to have a kinematic coupler). The final line is:

 

"In conclusion the Hornby one wins my vote but only due to the couplings, which, I am replacing on a lot of stock."

 

There are some photos comparing a Peco wagon to a Hornby wagon. He also has other posts with videos of the wagons running.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1581812358920619/permalink/1795405210894665/?mibextid=bKks23

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Porfuera
Added "Hornby TT:120 Group"

[Porfuera]

Here is a link to another of Garry's posts with a short video of all eight of the new Peco wagons being pulled by a very nice-looking black Class 08:

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1581812358920619/permalink/1795282810906905/?mibextid=zDhOQc

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Porfuera

[J-Lewis]

These look great.  Got to chuckle at some of the comments nitpicking paint shades based on wagon photos.  Didn’t they often repaint things just so they would show up on the old film stock of the day?  Who knows if that wagon looked liked any of its brethren.  Plus, of course, we are railway modellers so if you want some specific just DIY it.

 

Honestly, anyone who thinks these models, or this new TT scale are a return to the 1970’s days in terms of accuracy needs their eyes tested.  :)   If this exact wagon had been released 50 years ago it would have been hailed as unbelievably accurate.

 

Can’t wait to get mine onto the layout and start playing trains.

[frobisher]

7 hours ago, Porfuera said:

There are some photos comparing a Peco wagon to a Hornby wagon. He also has other posts with videos of the wagons running.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1581812358920619/permalink/1795405210894665/?mibextid=bKks23

 

 

Have Peco tried to reinvent the wheel there with the couplings?  The NEM standard is the 355 pocket, yet it looks like their coupling has fishtails for fitting to the NEM 362 type pocket... Or is the 355 pocket secured using those fishtails?

[Les1952]

Neither of the Farcebook links in the previous half-dozen posts work- access restricted by FB to the poster and a small group who have particular access to them.

 

Les

 

[frobisher]

3 hours ago, Les1952 said:

Neither of the Farcebook links in the previous half-dozen posts work- access restricted by FB to the poster and a small group who have particular access to them.

 

I'm not a member of the group or a friend of anyone there and I can see them, so there's possibly something odd with your FB settings..?

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, Les1952 said:

Neither of the Farcebook links in the previous half-dozen posts work- access restricted by FB to the poster and a small group who have particular access to them.

 

Works for me and incidentally I learn from that that Hornby have made PO wagons with steel underframes, 10 ft wheelbase, and Morton brake gear. That does confirm to me that the whole enterprise is, if not back to the 70s which was perhaps excessive hyperbole, at least back to the 80s.

 

Why deliberately produce such tat when it would be just as easy and no more expensive to get these basic features right?

[J-Lewis]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

incidentally I learn from that that Hornby have made PO wagons with steel underframes, 10 ft wheelbase, and Morton brake 

 

Why deliberately produce such tat when it would be just as easy and no more expensive to get these basic features right?

I learn that in my time away from the UK scene a lot of modellers seem to have either gone soft or regressed into a child’s logic.  I mean the sheer amount of utterly wasted moaning and complaining about very clear and sensible business decisions as if they were somehow unexplainable or unreasonable.

Why have Hornby done this?  Hornby have not made “PO wagons with steel under frames, 10ft wheel base and Morton brakes.”   Simple answer.  They’ve made PO wagons BODIES to fit onto their generic chassis’, a generic chassis which has 10ft wheelbase and Morton brakes because that’s the most commonly seen features under the most wagons.  No doubt those same 10ft chassis will turn up under various other wagons in due course.  This currently gives two wagons in the TT range but keeps the costs lower.

You don’t have to buy them, in fact not buying them will send a clear message that you don’t buy anything other than perfectly modelled, bespoke tailored models that match exactly what you need/want.  But totally uncompromising and unreasonable standards are rarely a way to a healthy life so I hope you’re not too dissatisfied with how that works out.

There are plenty of complaints about these new Peco 9ft wagons too.  It’s getting silly.

The rest of us will enjoy our trains and Kitbash/Build what we need, just as modellers have always done for the past 100years or so.

 

 

[Miss Prism]

Back to the future, 1957-style:

 

 

(I've still got a few of these somewhere)

 

[J-Lewis]

Loved those old Triang wagons in the day.  Looking forward to getting my mineral wagons sorted for TT1:120  :)

[Les1952]

8 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Back to the future, 1957-style:

 

 

(I've still got a few of these somewhere)

 

 

Hang onto them and leave your descendants a goodly chunk of cash when they sell them on...... 

 

Les

 

[J-Lewis]

On 22/10/2023 at 20:06, Les1952 said:

 

Hang onto them and leave your descendants a goodly chunk of cash when they sell them on...... 

 

Les

 

Not sure that will be the case Les, might be best to sell them now while they still have some value?  Judging from eBay values of Triang sales over the past couple of years it looks like we might be on the downward side of the price hump for them?  Boxed wagons exactly like that one are going for as little as £3 these days, and similar to Wrenn prices it looks like Demographic changes mean there won’t be a resurgent of interest?

My money would be on the average 80’s and 90’s Hornby being more likely to increase in value than the 60’s and 70’s stuff.  Even then, the sheer amount of old models hitting the market is going to mean there are plenty to choose from?

[Phil Parker]

28 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

Not sure that will be the case Les, might be best to sell them now while they still have some value?  Judging from eBay values of Triang sales over the past couple of years it looks like we might be on the downward side of the price hump for them?  Boxed wagons exactly like that one are going for as little as £3 these days, and similar to Wrenn prices it looks like Demographic changes mean there won’t be a resurgent of interest?

My money would be on the average 80’s and 90’s Hornby being more likely to increase in value than the 60’s and 70’s stuff.  Even then, the sheer amount of old models hitting the market is going to mean there are plenty to choose from?

 

Members of the 3mm Society have been paying bargain prices for years, thanks to the excellent work of the people running the stores.

 

Those who refuse to pay membership, to save money, have been happily paying much higher prices on the second-hand market...

[J-Lewis]

I think it’s more of a hobby wide issue Phil, with ‘collectors’ values dropping in most markets?  People, who had Triang as kids and therefore sought to collect it are now dropping out of the market due to demographic trends.  Their collections are sold off diluting the market further and lower prices even more.  It’s not just a TT thing, it’s happening across all scales.
 

Yes I agree the 3mm society has done a fantastic job keeping the embers of British TT alive for over 60 years, but even they won’t keep going for ever.  These new TT120 models surely mean that it will be even harder to maintain interest in 3mm?

[andrewshimmin]

24 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

I think it’s more of a hobby wide issue Phil, with ‘collectors’ values dropping in most markets?  People, who had Triang as kids and therefore sought to collect it are now dropping out of the market due to demographic trends.  Their collections are sold off diluting the market further and lower prices even more.  It’s not just a TT thing, it’s happening across all scales.
 

Yes I agree the 3mm society has done a fantastic job keeping the embers of British TT alive for over 60 years, but even they won’t keep going for ever.  These new TT120 models surely mean that it will be even harder to maintain interest in 3mm?

 

On the contrary, TT120 now means those of us with extensive Triang TT collections (inherited from my late Grandpa in my case) are finally able to run them easily, as we can use the Hornby track etc (and yes, despite what Hornby say, it is compatible with only minor tweaking).

Now my inherited stuff can run, it is motivating me to get hold of some of the Triang models (and old kits) which I don't have, as I can now run them.

I'm collecting TT120 too, but the range isn't hugely extensive as yet of course.