How often can "a poor runner or doesn't run well/I don't know whats wrong with the loco" be put down to lack of maintenance on the part of the owner?

[OnTheBranchline]

Some modellers tend to forget that model trains need maintenance. 

[PaulaDoesTrains]

Whilst others seem to think drenching a loco in oil will improve its running.

[Michael Hodgson]

Question depends on the context, and when it's something on ebay it can be any of

• the above
• a modeller who is giving up and can't be bothered to fix it
• somebody selling a deceased estate/house clearance
• trader who's really not interested

 

[Silly Moo]

Some people are very heavy handed and careless with their models and some of those poor runners might have taken a dive off the layout and hit the deck. 
 

I’m always wary of ‘collections’  carelessly chucked together in a box. 
 

Another thing that puts me off is models covered in dust and in the case of eBay listings those with poor photographs. 

[Ravenser]

In the case of a new RTR model - which is where most of the angst arises - none of the above will apply.

 

In the case of a home-built model, you have to keep going after any bugs and tweaking things till all is well.

 

In general the main suspects are lack of juice, and this is likely to be down to ill-fitting or inadequete pickups, or dirt. These days most locos have adequete pickups , but older locos didn't and you might have to fit more. Wheels need to be kept clean

 

And the issue might be the state of the layout, not the state of the loco.

 

I have a Hornby Fowler 2-6-4T , bought "new-secondhand" . As bought it barely ran. I oiled everything carefully , including the joints in the motion, and it then ran very nicely. Some months later, the oil had clearly dried out and it ran badly. So I oiled the motion and it ran very nicely...

 

Clearly the motion is slightly tight somewhere . A vigourous maintenance regime keeps it happy , but there's a slight issue lurking, and it isn't me...

 

I would be cautious about pointing the finger at the owner in the case of every faltering loco. Some older RTR mechanisms were indeed rough, and only a certain amount can be got from them. And you need to define your context. A kit-built chassis may indeed be a poor runner that no amount of routine maintenance will fix - it may not have been properly fettled and adjusted to start with 

 

"the problem with this loco is you" can be a very corrosive idea. Nobody has a "negative personal force-field" that causes locos to stall and vehicles to derail. Every issue has physical causes derived from principles of mechanical and electrical engineering. You have to test, check, find and define the issues and address them. And then it WILL work. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Ravenser

[jpendle]

I'm sure it happens quite a lot, but model railways is a broad church.

 

The modeller who can't even begin to dismantle a loco may be modelling their scenery to architectural standards.

The modeller stripping down models to their component parts and cleaning motor brushes may well run screaming from the room at the thought of wiring Electrofrog points.

It would help if manufacturers described how to strip down models for maintenance rather than providing just an exploded parts diagram.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[jjb1970]

As with so many things, the answer is 'it depends'.

 

If the model is well designed, free of manufacturing faults (and I'd question whether correcting a manufacturing fault is maintenance, it is a corrective action) and subject to a normal use case then maintenance should be limited to cleaning the wheels, replacing the odd traction tyre and very occasional lubrication (as has been said above, over lubrication is not good).

 

However, not all models are well designed, not all models are free of manufacturing defects and use case is not always the same. For example, if the model is used like those at miniature world in Hamburg then they will either need real maintenance to motors and transmissions or replacement long before a normal user would even have to start thinking about whether it was possible because the design intent is not for constant operation in that way.

 

And not all models are the same. Anyone familiar with Asian made brass models will know that if you want to operate brass like other RTR then you need to have some confidence to service the models and attend to niggling faults. On the other hand I have models made by Roco, HAG, Fleischmann, Hornby, Lima, Kato and Tomix in the 80's and 80's which have been very well used by me which have had zero maintenance beyond wheel cleaning and which still run perfectly (well, in the case of Lima, as well as they ever did but the Lima pancake was always more about cheap and simple than smooth and quiet performance).

 

Something to keep in mind is that maintenance induced failure is a major failure mode. One reason for the shift towards condition monitoring/condition based maintenance is that it is now recognized in many engineering disciplines that if a machine is working well then leave it alone, opening it up for inspection and maintenance is more likely to do harm than good (note, this does not mean no maintenance, consumables like filters still need to be kept clean, oil changed, fuel nozzles cleaned or changed as necessary etc). 

 

In the case of model trains, my recommendation would be that if it works well leave it alone.

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

 

In the case of model trains, my recommendation would be that if it works well leave it alone.

 

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

And when it doesn’t work, or runs like a three legged dog with legs from three other different dogs? 
 

Firstly, I have never had a loco with traction tyres that was not very much improved in running by their removal and replacement of the grooved wheel, and secondly, my experience with Lima is that they can run well when they and the railheads are scrupulously clean, despite the pancakes and the horrible spur gears, but that whatever brass alloy was used for the wheels picks up dirt and spreads it around the track within anything more than one circuit of track; maintenance in the form of CONSTANT cleaning is needed. 
 

2 basic problems here, I think; 1) doesn’t go, or 2), doesn’t go properly.  If under warranty, goes back, otherwise…

 

1)  First suspect is current supply to motor.  I know next to nothing about DCC so will comment about DC; those more erudite than me can fill in the gaps.  Assuming other locos run ok on the layout, problem has to be on this loco.   Look at wheel pickup surfaces and pickup strips, are they clean, and do the pickups bear on the rear of the wheels across the full range of any sideplay or sprung vertical play.  Clean any dirt off the wheel pickup surfaces but don’t touch the pickup strips yet.  Test run, go = job done, no go = the next stage
 

Now, with the loco held upside down, remove the plastic keeper plate that the pickup strips are attached to and which holds the axles and thus the wheelsets in place.  It is usually held by small crosshead screws and you may have to remove bogie or pony screws as well to remove the keeper plate.  Put the screws into a limp of Blutac or similar, chewing gum if necessary, to keep them from getting lost.  Lift the keeper plate off very gently to avoid tugging on the wires feeding from the pickup strips to the DCC chip plug.  There is not a great deal of slack to take up and the soldered joints are not designed to be pulled on.  With the keeper plate free of the wheels, you can clean the surfaces that bear on the wheel backs (I use cotton buds and CTC or rattlecan electrical switch cleaner; we’ll be coming back to the rattlecan later!).  If the pickups need adjusting, bend them VERY GENTLY outwards, and then VERY CAREFULLY replace the keeper plate ensuring that you guide the pickup strips into position and they don’t snag on the wheel flanges. Put the screws back but don’t tighten them fully yet, just ‘nip’ them.  Test loco. 
 

No go?  Now take the bodyshell off and check that all the soldered connections of wire from the pickups to the chip holder and the chip holder to the motor terminals are good, with a circuit tester NOT by tugging on them.   Resolder any dry joints.  Test chassis on track; should go now.  If not, apply power to motor terminals and soldered joints (flying leads or 9v battery) to isolate dry or broken joint or wire broken inside insulation, in which case replace that wire completely.  If it doesn't go now, you are in a serious fix and need expert help, have a dead short to find and eliminate, or the motor is burned out and needs replacing, or the mech is jammed, probably by somebody trying to force it through a tight spot when the quartering went off, which is covered in…

 

2) Goes but not properly.  This will be a mechanical issue, something binding or fouling somewhere.  
 

If the quartering is out badly, this will be very obvious visually straight away, and my recommendation is a replacement set of wheels. A minor quartering issue may not be so obvious, as it will show up as a lack of straightness in the coupling rods, and cause binding and poor running, but there is play in coupling rods anyway, which could hide the issue and prevent it being detected until the problem becomes worse. A fix might be possible by taking the wheel off the axle and repositioning it correctly, but of it’s loose enough to have shifted out of quarter it’ll probably do so again next time you accidentally have a jerk start or a brick wall stop.  My recommendation is still replacement wheels; funnily enough I’m having this problem currently with a Hornby B2 Peckett!

 

Take the body off, and apply current to the motor terminals, turn the chassis upside down and examine it running closely under good lighting.  Check that the motion is not binding anywhere, particularly the connecting rods clearing the coupling rods and the coupling rods clearing the wheel rims at all points of wheel revolution.  The motion is fairly delicate and may be bent out of shape.  If it is very badly out, it will need to be replaced completely, but a minor rub might respond to very careful persuasion with judicious leverage from a small flat-bladed screwdriver.  If it is too far gone for this, but you think it’s salvageable, remove the crankpins and spacer bearings (lump of Blutac again) with a nut spinner.  You can now straighten the various rods on the workbench.  Check that the crossheads slide freely in the slidebars; crud on the slidebars and prevent this. 
 

While the motion is removed, test run the loco.  If all is now smooth running, we know there is no problem with the drive gears or the driven axle wheelset.  Turn the other wheelsets by hand, feeling for any resistance.  If there is any, you might be able to adjust it out by tightening or loosening the keeper plate screw, which is why I told you to only ‘nip’ them earlier.  If that fails, keeper plate off again, carefully, and drop the wheels out.   Check for smooth surfaces on the axle bearings and that there is no crud in the way of anything like gears.  
 

Now, remember the rattlecan?  Spray vigorously all over the bottom of the chassis block until you’ve removed by force all of the coloured grease that is put on as lubricant in the factory.  I don’t like it; you can’t see if the gears are meshing properly, it picks up crud, too much of it is put on, and it solidifies over time, a stifficant rather than a lubricant.  Leave the chassis until the spraycan cleaner has evaporated, overnight is good, and carefully reassemble everything lubricating the positions indicated in the owner’s service sheet that came with the model, SPARINGLY AS POSSIBLE, with a non mineral plastic-safe lubricant.  I apply this with a syringe kept for the purpose, but a droplet on the end of a pin will work just as well.  If you have any other syringes in your home for whatever purpose, keep the lubrication syringe away from them at all times, nothing needs lubricating inside of anyone. 

Most modern models have motors that can be removed easily from their holding frames; they simply unclip.  Careful again because of the wire and the soldered joints, but with the gears unmeshed you can again push the now re-assembled loco gently with your finger feeling for tight spot.  By now you know what to look for and will be able to isolate snd rectify any problem. 

 

You should now have a smooth and controllable loco that can be run steadily at low speeds, and with nothing fouling, catching, rubbing, or stiff, haulage should improve as well.  If it is brand new, run it in carefully according to the manufacturers’ recommendation.  If you’ve lost the service sheet or acquired the loco secondhand without it, it can be downloaded as a pdf from the manufacturers’ websites; you’ll need the model’s catalogue number. 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by The Johnster

[Clive martin]

I must be very lucky ,i have had to do very little to keep my models running well, some of my Bachmann class 24 and 25 must be 20 years old ,all i have had to do has been to clean their wheels once or twice,my 3 Bachmann warships are the only models that i have had to take apart for a major overhaul ,while these locos were in bits i drilled holes through the bogie base plates in the middle of each axle so the gear train can be oiled without the need to dismantel the loco,the only model i have dead in a box is a Heljan class 14 that after running in ran quite well until its motor just packed up without warning,one day i will see if i can get a replacement motor for this model!

[The Johnster]

21 hours ago, Clive martin said:

,while these locos were in bits i drilled holes through the bogie base plates in the middle of each axle so the gear train can be oiled without the need to dismantel the loco

 

Good idea!

[Coldgunner]

In my experience, the finer the detail, the worse running with a few exceptions from the big manufacturers. A definite less-is-more approach is needed though. Just a tiny pin-drop in the key parts (I read the manual once you know :D) should be good. TBH I think I have more DCC chips go pop than mechanical failures.

 

Except my live steamers, which if they want to will drink oil like Oliver Reed on a stag weekend.

[Butler Henderson]

Then of course their is owner who swears by the can of WD40....

[The Johnster]

And the other owner who swears at the can of WD40.

 

Not recommended at all as a lubricant, it is a dampness dispersant and not neccessarily suitable for use near plastics or nylon gears.  I do however have a can of WD40 electrical cleaner, which is pretty good stuff for general cleaning (again, not for lubricating) so long as you're quick; it evaporates very fast!  I use if for all sorts of cleaning jobs on the layout, run it over the track with a Gaugemaster axle-hung pad, squirt it into locos as a general 'come on, you can run better than this' suggestion, use it with pads to clean wheels and pickups,

[Geep7]

I seem to have been finding recently, that the white grease that seems to be used in more recent Chinese made models tends to harden on loco's that haven't been used for some time. Removing this, and replacing with something slightly better seems to do the trick.

 

I've also found, certainly on Bachmann EMU's, the pick-up design isn't the best, as the brass bearings and wipers tend to get lubricant oil creeping on to them from the gear tower. Taking the whole thing apart, cleaning up the gears, bearings and pickups, then replacing the lubricant seems to do trick. I use the Bachmann Moly Grease (Molybdenum based grease) in small amounts, and it seems to do the trick. However, the pickup from the bogie to the motor could be done better, as it's generally a brass tab bearing upwards onto another sprung brass tab. I have resorted to soldering wires between them on my 4-Cep due to pick-up issues, and probably will on my recent MLV purchase. I don't seem to have the same issues on my 2H Thumper, but suspect it's only a matter of time before I do.

 

But it's horses for courses. I only do the above because I run DCC and Sound too, and it can be somewhat of an issue when operating at an exhibition. I just don't like having to prod my locos every 5 seconds to get them to move.

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Geep7 said:

seem to have been finding recently, that the white grease that seems to be used in more recent Chinese made models tends to harden on loco's that haven't been used for some time. Removing this, and replacing with something slightly better seems to do the trick.

I concur, and it picks up crud as well.  We have been advised (correctly) for years to use lubricant as sparingly as possible, and then we buy new locos with generous helpings of this gunge.   I blast it off with rattlecan contact cleaner and replace it with non-mineral machine oil which is, according to my local Antics, plastic/nylon-safe.  

[Clive martin]

I am not sure everyone on this forum will agree with me ,but since the advent of the what i describe as second generation models of the last 20 years for example diesel outline models with central motors and cardon shaft drive bogies, these models are much more reliable than the old pancake powered models of the past ,but i dont think maintenance was thought about in the design stage of many of these models ,sometimes what should be a simple task of lubrication requires quite a bit of dismantling and with models becomeing more and more detailed the risk of damaging detail is always a worry!

[adb968008]

My dads old Dublo 800xx from when he was a kid still runs fine.

Heading on 65 years old at this point… I’m reckoning its me who will have the challenge to be here and see it run when its 100.

 

Had a major overhaul in 1981 converting it to 2 rail.

Had a major service and new brushes by me circa 1992.
I give it a once over annually.

Still on its original magnets too.

 

Ive in the fixed low thousands of locos in my life, thats what I enjoy the most. Bringing a total wreck back can be satisfying, way beyond economic value, memories include a class 45 and Black5 someone handed me after lying in the bottom of their garden a few years…a little rusty and muddy.

 

WD 2-8-0’s can seize up nicely if un-run, Lima becomes unrunnable if left for years without an armature / brush service, as can Mainline locos… they all can come up good… X04’s are fantastic with a bit of tlc.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by adb968008

[rogerzilla]

I have a few locos that are probably down to one pair of working pickups, like an otherwise immaculate Hornby King, because they hesitate over dead frogs despite having a long wheelbase. I really need to clean and adjust them.

Edited February 17, 2023 by rogerzilla

[Clive martin]

Today i cleaned the wheels and removed a bit of fluff etc from the pick ups on one of my Bachmann class 47s that has always been a great running model,for the first time today she showed a few signs of needing a bit of tlc ,the model in question is the pre top s rail blue D1547 ,i am quite amazed that this loco is nearly 15 years old and this is the first time i have ever cleaned its wheels,i thought it might need a complete overhaul but with just a wheel clean she now runs like a dream a real credit to Bachmann !

[kevinlms]

That's because modern model locos have far more pick ups. It means as long as there is a wheel picking up from each side, it will run normally. So it takes dirt on a high percentage of wheels to stop them.

 

Models like old Tri-ang/Hornby or Lima, used to only pick up from 2 wheels each side at best, made dirt a significant problem in stopping good running. A lower gear ratio contributes to better running too.

[Clive martin]

Yesterday i decided to change the stock on my layout from pre tops era to 1980s tops era ,one of my Bachmann class 20s was not running very well so i decided to give it bit of a service thats when my problems started ,after removeing the body shell i thought i would take a look at the gears in the bogies but after much effort i could find no way of removeing the bogie base plates this resulted in the whole bogie tower falling out  on closer inspection it looked like the locos previous owner had repaired the half round tabs that hold the bogie onto the chassis ,so the only way to get any oil into the gear train was to remove the top of the bogie tower ,this explained to me why when i bought this loco it was well over oiled i guess out of desperation the previous owner had flooded the gear tower with oil as this seems to be the only way to oil this model ,idont think any of the mainstream manufacturers design models with a bit of thought regards maintenance ,why is it that european HO stock seems to be far better built in this regard i had to change a traction tyre on a roco v90 it was so easy the bogie frame just unclipped with out any problem,

I am sure roco etc seem to put more thought into how their models are to be maintained !

,

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Sometimes a poor runner can be down to a bit of ignorance,

I purchased a secondhand Bachmann Sulzer 2 at a good price described as a non runner. A little investigation showed it to be DCC chip fitted with the DC option switched off, and someone had played fast and loose with the DCC settings so it took an eternity to start moving.

 

Mike.

[The Johnster]

15 hours ago, Clive martin said:

why is it that european HO stock seems to be far better built in this regard

 

European H0 stock is often a lot more expensive, and it is this that provides the answer to your question; their QC is much better than ours, but costs much more.  It is fairly well known in the RTR game that British modellers will not stand for the sort of pricing levels that good QC entails, or the sort of pricing levels that allow production design engineers the free hand they need to make models that run better, more reliably, and are easier to maintain.  We're British, we want a pullman ride for a parliamentary fare!

[ianathompson]

On 21/03/2023 at 01:18, The Johnster said:

It is fairly well known in the RTR game that British modellers will not stand for the sort of pricing levels that good QC entails, or the sort of pricing levels that allow production design engineers the free hand they need to make models that run better, more reliably, and are easier to maintain. 

 

That  seems to be about right.

I recently bought a Hornby or Bachmann (can't remember which) OO 4-6-0 chassis from a well known auction site.

I model continental 7mm narow gauge so the idea was to build a body for it, based on a Reseau Breton loco.

 

Things progressed quite well and the chassis was a nice runner.

What  was surprising, however, was the number of items fell off the chassis in the build process.

I might be ham fisted but the  continental chassis are more robust, especially the older ones.

 

The chassis then locked up because of a small amount of misplaced paint.

Okay, once again mea culpa.

We are not talking about innundating the wheels and motion in paint, however, merely a few spots.

I would have expected an old time Fleischmann mechanism not to have even noticed this impediment.

 

The connecting rods bent up and came away from the slide bars.

This necessitated dismantling the mechanism to reinstate them.

On close inspection they seemed to be made of an extremely soft metal, akin to the tin foil used for pie cans.

The cylinders then chose to dismantle themselves.

 

To cut a long story short a replacement Fleischmann mechanism now awaits a reworked body.

I am left wondering how many modern British RTR models are bought as "shelf queens" with no intention of actually running them.

 

Ian T

 

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

Probably quite a few, Ian, when you take into account the collector market and add on the not inconsiderable number of people who acquire locos to run on a layout which, for various reasons, never gets built.  There seems little pressure from customers for our RTR companies to improve matters, and one of the biggest players is gaining a sorry reputation for exactly the sorts of 'bits falling off' problems you highlight. 

 

I have learned over many years to go through the following procedure whenever I acquire a loco, irresepective of whether it is new or 2h.  Careful removal from box, place on track and apply power to confirm that there is life in it, and then I dismantle the loco, body off chassis and keeper plate off the bottom, carefully so as not to stress the connection between the pickups strips and the chip/motor feed wires.  First job is to gently adjust the pickups; you want them all to bear on the wheel surface across the full range of the wheelset's sideplay.  Next is to check the back-to-backs, and I have frequently found issue with these on brand new models.   Then, get rid of the coloured grease lubricant; it will eventually stiffen up and attract crud.  Best way to do this is with a rattlecan electronic switch cleaner, which is powerful enough to blast most of it away, and clean any residue off.  I then replace the lube with a non-mineral plastic friendly machine oil applied with a syringe, but a droplet on the end of a pin will do just as well.   Lubrication points are shown on the service sheet that came with the loco, and if you haven't got one (unboxed 2h, for example), then you can download them as free pdfs from the manufacturers' websites; you'll need to quote the catalogue number.

 

I've found that this practice precludes any running problems, but the 'falling off bits' seems to be something we have to live with in rip-off Britain.  But we shouldn't have to put up with this sort of thing.  In fairness, I've been lucky with most of my locos, and for no reason other than that they happen. to produce locos I want, most of mine are from the 'other' big manufacturer, the one whose models are more expensive because they specify better QC. 

 

If we want good quality loco that run reliably and well, then we must be prepared to pay as much as our mainland European and American cousins for them, and the bitter truth is that we are not.  But we are inconsistent in our demands as well; we don't want to pay up the ante for better quality models and will flood sites such as this with howling complaints when prices are raised, but at the same time complain about poor quality, but not do anything about it.  We persist in buying models from companies that we vocifereously complain about, and object to forms of mechanisms such as all-wheels geared cosmetic coupling rods or split current collection because they have failed us in the past.  But European or American models that use these methods work perfectly well, even with traction tyres, so it is clearly not the types of mechanisms that are at fault, but the materials and build standards of British RTR companies.

 

Not a recent trend, either.  Back in the 60s and 70s there was a move among British RTR modellers to European layouts exactly because our home grown stuff was so poor; N gauge European models had autodirection-switching lights and ran more smoothly and slowly than our 00 stuff, and the H0 stuff was orders of magnitude better.  Detail and performance for 00 has improved considerably since those days, after hitting a bit of a nadir in the 70s and 80s, but it looks as if the quality gap has been maintained.  When we are prepared to pay £200 for a basic DC 0-6-0 like our European friends do, perhaps our RTR manufacturers will improve things a bit, but it will take a long time to shift our long-standing traditions and prejudices.