Exhibition barriers - more shows appear not to offer them anymore - what do we do?

[Huw Griffiths]

On 21/02/2023 at 07:36, arran said:

Good well made barriers keep the idiots back  from the layout and also enhance the viewers experience with having something at the correct height  to lean on .

 

Alternatively, I'm sure that a more "subtle" approach might also work.

 

A burly guy - wearing steel toecapped boots - and carrying a claw hammer - is reputed to be effective. Certainly leaves an impression ... .

 

 

Seriously though, some of us are short-sighted - and wish to be as close as possible - but would never touch etc.

 

Other people seem to prefer the "touchy feely" approach - possibly even complete with "five fingered discounts" - and anything short of barbed wire (or "the nice Mr. Friendly") probably wouldn't deter them.

 

I sometimes wonder if it's ever possible to win ... .

 

 

[5944]

On 16/02/2023 at 21:27, chris p bacon said:

 

We used the same barriers but have now decided not to use them anymore. The last load I picked up (on my own) was 1.2T and had to be picked from the stillages and loaded onto an open truck. IIRC  The advice now is that only those clubs that use a tail lift can hire them and the last time I was there the average weight of a stillage was .7T. That might not sound much but the car park outside the lock up wasn't flat and a tail lift doesn't sit flat on the ground so it must be fun trying to get a stillage on the lift.  I think the storage area has now moved but the weight is still an issue.

For our show (this weekend) those exhibiting have been advised that there will not be barriers and I understand it isn't an issue. We need some 20+ Volunteers to run the show and with volunteer numbers tight, the barriers have been dropped. 

Not having the barriers certainly made the Biggleswade show a much more relaxed affair - before, during and after the show. Less faffing around on the Friday, a lot more space to move around on the Saturday, and less to do after the show. It meant I was the first in the pub after the show and didn't have to go with you to Welwyn to unload the barriers again!

 

One layout brought their own and lent a few to another layout, but they didn't seem to be missed by anyone else.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I asked the original question about barriers and I have found the discussion interesting and informative but one aspect has intrigued me - the 100% focus on barriers being there only to protect the layout - whilst I totally understand that aspect, for me there is another one - an added bonus if you like.

 

Let me explain........................

 

If I am right up against a layout it seems to me like I'm in a hot air balloon looking down onto the scene and that it not how most people view life. As I move further away from a layout the angle I look at it becomes more natural. This is the same 'issue' we see in old model magazines from the 1960'/70's where the model photos were all of the 'hot air balloon' style - nowadays all the model mags show photos from 'street-level'. Barriers force viewers to take a step back and therefore they see a more natural view.

 

Another bonus of having layout barriers is that people in the second or third row can see the layout ie if the first row of viewers is right up against a layout, anyone behind them can barely see anything, but having a gap between the first row of viewers and the layout allows those viewers at the back to get a far better view of the layout.

Edited May 5, 2023 by TEAMYAKIMA

[ELTEL]

There will be barriers around all of the layouts at the Stafford Exhibition in September unless a layout owner requests they would prefer not to have barriers (ie layout is operated fri. the front)

 

Terry 

[009 micro modeller]

21 minutes ago, ELTEL said:

There will be barriers around all of the layouts at the Stafford Exhibition in September unless a layout owner requests they would prefer not to have barriers (ie layout is operated fri. the front)

 

Terry 

The layout being operated from the front isn’t necessarily a reason not to have them. I have seen some at exhibitions where a gap has been left for operator access between the barriers and front of the layout (although obviously I can see how this could be awkward for some layouts).

[The Fatadder]

On 17/02/2023 at 00:33, PaulRhB said:

Temeraire uses those on Tidworth. They are spring door stops with a length of dowel inserted in the end of the spring and the mounting plate let into the layout. At shows we just twist in the spring and hang the rope on the end. 
cylinder-projection-door-stops-chrome-plated-10-pack

I had been thinking about barriers for Wheal Imogen, in part because the fiddleyards extend at least a foot forward of the front edge of the layout.  Thankfully for its first outing at Calne there were barriers.  This wont be the case at DEMU from memory, so I need to get something sorted to ensure people dont get in the way of the traverser as well as hopefully reducing the chance of people touching.   

 

This looks to be the ideal solution (though I think I would attach to the legs rather than the frame in order that the barrier doesnt move with the traverser.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

4 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

I had been thinking about barriers for Wheal Imogen, in part because the fiddleyards extend at least a foot forward of the front edge of the layout.  Thankfully for its first outing at Calne there were barriers.  This wont be the case at DEMU from memory, so I need to get something sorted to ensure people dont get in the way of the traverser as well as hopefully reducing the chance of people touching.   

 

This looks to be the ideal solution (though I think I would attach to the legs rather than the frame in order that the barrier doesnt move with the traverser.

 

I have been weighing up the barrier issue (in both the metaphorical and literal sense) and definitely think that this concept would be my first choice. Put another way, if a show provides their own (substantial) barriers I would go with that option, but if they don't I think this is the best (and cheapest) option.

[PMP]

1 hour ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I asked the original question about barriers and I have found the discussion interesting and informative but one aspect has intrigued me - the 100% focus on barriers being there only to protect the layout - whilst I totally understand that aspect, for me there is another one - an added bonus if you like.

 

Let me explain........................

 

If I am right up against a layout it seems to me like I'm in a hot air balloon looking down onto the scene and that it not how most people view life. As I move further away from a layout the angle I look at it becomes more natural. This is the same 'issue' we see in old model magazines from the 1960'/70's where the model photos were all of the 'hot air balloon' style - nowadays all the model mags show photos from 'street-level'. Barriers force viewers to take a step back and therefore they see a more natural view.

 

Another bonus of having layout barriers is that people in the second or third row can see the layout ie if the first row of viewers is right up against a layout, anyone behind them can barely see anything, but having a gap between the first row of viewers and the layout allows those viewers at the back to get a far better view of the layout.

I’d suggest that’s only because the layouts you’re describing, (and there’s many of them) have been built at the stereotypical 1m or so display height. If I’m second row and there’s taller/chunkier/back pack wearing fellow enthusiasts in front I still can’t see until I get front row position. 

My layouts are built with a track height of around 1.3m/55” this allowing the majority of show visitors a natural sightline. 
 

N.B. This will likely trigger a layout heightism response from someone. It’s all been discussed before, search the forum, and all exhibition managers are made aware of the layout style when discussing T&C’s, so they’re aware of what they’re getting.

 

[PMP]

35 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

  This wont be the case at DEMU from memory, so I need to get something sorted to ensure people dont get in the way of the traverser as well as hopefully reducing the chance of people touching.   

 

I’ve found at society shows the audience are more attuned to these sort of factors, so I wouldn’t necessarily worry about it too much. You might need to consider security elements if your fiddleyard is easily accessible by the audience, both in terms of touching and pilferage. At the specialist shows I’m much less concerned for barrier protection.

Having said that, Shelfie 1, above, was operated at both Manchester and Warley with no barriers and no issues.

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by PMP
Spellcheck

[TEAMYAKIMA]

15 minutes ago, PMP said:

I’d suggest that’s only because the layouts you’re describing, (and there’s many of them) have been built at the stereotypical 1m or so display height. If I’m second row and there’s taller/chunkier/back pack wearing fellow enthusiasts in front I still can’t see until I get front row position. 

My layouts are built with a track height of around 1.3m/55” this allowing the majority of show visitors a natural sightline. 
 

N.B. This will likely trigger a layout heightism response from someone. It’s all been discussed before, search the forum, and all exhibition managers are made aware of the layout style when discussing T&C’s, so they’re aware of what they’re getting.

 

 

Yes, I agree with you. My exhibition-only layout was originally built at 51 inches which I consider an acceptable height (I'm 6ft 3 inches tall), but having received feedback from a (short) member of my team I lowered it to 48 inches.

 

However, when we exhibited at the Warley show I met an old friend of mine who is now in a wheelchair and asked him what he thought of the layout and he said that he hadn't stopped to look at it as he couldn't see the layout properly. So, reluctantly, I lowered the layout to 46 inches and that is the absolute lowest I would accept. And, TBH, I only did that because mine is a very niche layout and if I want to get exhibition invites I cannot afford any 'negatives' otherwise I would personally have said that 48 inches would be my lowest height.

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by TEAMYAKIMA

[fulton]

Recently exhibited at the Watford Exhibition, no barriers, mixture of modellers and general public with children, no problems at all, I do have a low Perspex screen, which does save the front edge from fingers, mine included when setting up. Photo taken prior to opening, it was quite busy, I do have some barriers but have never seen a need to use them.

[PaulRhB]

35 minutes ago, PMP said:

I’d suggest that’s only because the layouts you’re describing, (and there’s many of them) have been built at the stereotypical 1m or so display height.

It’s a personal choice compromise if building a show layout and one I followed because I know a couple of people in chairs who attend shows so it’s a nod to them when they stop to chat. Equally they don’t object to some taller layouts and come equipped to deal with it, one can now raise the seat on his electric chair, the other with a camera Wi-Fi’d to their phone. It just requires a bit of tolerance on both sides of the discussion 🙂
So build at a height comfortable for you as you operate it for hours is the best solution  

 

2 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

but one aspect has intrigued me - the 100% focus on barriers being there only to protect the layout

😀 At Ally Pally I found the excellent James St harder to view without barriers as the lighting valance was well below my eye line so to stand back meant people going in front so I mostly took pics to see the wider view! So for me barriers I could lean on would have been a slight benefit. 

Barriers similarly work well in some situations but are unnecessary for others. I didn’t use barriers for my 40+ frontage on the Harz layout at Shepton, Wimborne or NGSouth but I did at Warley because of the crowds. 

 

49 minutes ago, PMP said:

exhibition managers are made aware of the layout style when discussing T&C’s, so they’re aware of what they’re getting.

And that’s the simple answer, leave it to the organiser to choose, if someone moans direct them to the organiser 😉

[TEAMYAKIMA]

17 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

😀 At Ally Pally I found the excellent James St harder to view without barriers as the lighting valance was well below my eye line so to stand back meant people going in front so I mostly took pics to see the wider view!

I totally agree, I had exactly the same problem with James Street - one of the very best layouts I've ever seen in over 50 years going to shows, but I couldn't get a proper view of it because there were no barriers and the lighting pelmet was in my face.

[rab]

6 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

Yes, I agree with you. My exhibition-only layout was originally built at 51 inches which I consider an acceptable height (I'm 6ft 3 inches tall), but having received feedback from a (short) member of my team I lowered it to 48 inches.

 

However, when we exhibited at the Warley show I met an old friend of mine who is now in a wheelchair and asked him what he thought of the layout and he said that he hadn't stopped to look at it as he couldn't see the layout properly. So, reluctantly, I lowered the layout to 46 inches and that is the absolute lowest I would accept. And, TBH, I only did that because mine is a very niche layout and if I want to get exhibition invites I cannot afford any 'negatives' otherwise I would personally have said that 48 inches would be my lowest height.

 

Or put another way:

 

You can please some of the people some of the time.....

[ELTEL]

On 05/05/2023 at 08:37, 009 micro modeller said:

The layout being operated from the front isn’t necessarily a reason not to have them. I have seen some at exhibitions where a gap has been left for operator access between the barriers and front of the layout (although obviously I can see how this could be awkward for some layouts).

I think that is what I said

[Chris M]

On my G scale layout its the other way round - the barriers protect the public from the trains. You wouldn't want to be hit by one of my USA Trains bad boys at full pelt!

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Might this help?

 

 

 

Mike.

[SM42]

Im a fan of barriers, and a proper hard barrier. 

 

I've seen too many near misses with bags, elbows, sleeves and fingers. 

 

There is of course a downside, as has been mentioned they are a good spot to balance a toddler. 

Parents fling their child's legs over the barrier towards the layout and then you  have the swinging feeters to contend with. 

 

This hazard is less prevalent than the hazard of no barriers, so on balance I think  the barrier wins. 

 

Yes they are a faff to put up at the start of the show, but they can go in piece meal. 

 

Coming down is easy if you are organised. 

 

When we ran our show, we could get around 300ft of CMRA barrier down and out of the way in under 5 minutes. 

 

Loading into the 3.5 t dropside truck tool place over the next couple of hours. We could be all done by around 7pm after a 5pm close. 

 

Andy

[Reorte]

On 05/05/2023 at 09:34, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

Yes, I agree with you. My exhibition-only layout was originally built at 51 inches which I consider an acceptable height (I'm 6ft 3 inches tall), but having received feedback from a (short) member of my team I lowered it to 48 inches.

 

However, when we exhibited at the Warley show I met an old friend of mine who is now in a wheelchair and asked him what he thought of the layout and he said that he hadn't stopped to look at it as he couldn't see the layout properly. So, reluctantly, I lowered the layout to 46 inches and that is the absolute lowest I would accept. And, TBH, I only did that because mine is a very niche layout and if I want to get exhibition invites I cannot afford any 'negatives' otherwise I would personally have said that 48 inches would be my lowest height.

 

I'm another 6'3"er, and I like to get an eye-level view of a layout - it can totally transform the appearance. Often the first view of a layout I've looked forward to seeing from photos beforehand looks a little disappointing, until I get down to that level and I'm reminded just why I wanted to see it in the first place. It can really bring a layout to life. But crouching down to that height isn't comfortable for long, and having them high enough for me to view comfortably without crouching is just going to exclude people, so is no answer. If I'm really lucky there's a chair to sit on (not going to be a practical proposition at a lot of shows).

 

If there's no chair then overall a lower layout is preferable I think, then I can kneel.

[simonmcp]

Being recently disabled and now a wheelchair user, I made myself a periscope to view the layouts that are too high for me to see otherwise. The periscope could be used the other way round to view lower layouts and if so designed could avoid the barriers as well.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

OK, as the originator of this discussion, I have finally come to a decision. Here is my new barrier on the 75% of the scenic section of my layout that I can set up at home.

 

You will notice that the rope is taught which is a significant change to previous versions of this style of 'barrier'. Will it do the job? Luckily my next show will be a relatively quiet affair and we'll find out.😀

 

 

 

There is a M8 washer drilled out to fit the 9mm dowel in order to keep the rope in place. The rope is merely wrapped around the dowel.

 

 

I have tried to simulate being a viewer at a show and I feel that the fact that the rope is slightly higher than most 'belt barriers' makes a real difference - it's set at approx 1.12 metres and the fact that it's taught really gives the psychological message 'this far and no further' whereas a 'floppy' rope says "we don't want you to go any closer to the layout than this, but if you feel you really must, then alright".

Edited May 29, 2023 by TEAMYAKIMA

[009 micro modeller]

13 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

You will notice that the rope is taught

Hopefully the taut rope will produce a nice noticeable ‘twang’ if anyone does lean on it, similar to the sound of a cartoon cat falling off a telegraph wire while chasing a bird.

[Benjamin Brady]

On 16/02/2023 at 23:58, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

An interesting discussion, gives something to think about…

 

On my layout, I put information boards on the front of the layout that stick out into the audience, they are A5 sized and held on by velcro. They actually just hold people back enough so the layout isn’t damaged.

 

Simon

Weaver Hill follows the same theme as this, our are A4 but these were added once the wire were brought down by wondering hands once. These boards do the trick perfectly in our eyes. 

[CF MRC]

On 29/05/2023 at 08:08, TEAMYAKIMA said:

OK, as the originator of this discussion, I have finally come to a decision. Here is my new barrier on the 75% of the scenic section of my layout that I can set up at home.

 

You will notice that the rope is taught which is a significant change to previous versions of this style of 'barrier'. Will it do the job? Luckily my next show will be a relatively quiet affair and we'll find out.😀

 

 

 

There is a M8 washer drilled out to fit the 9mm dowel in order to keep the rope in place. The rope is merely wrapped around the dowel.

 

 

I have tried to simulate being a viewer at a show and I feel that the fact that the rope is slightly higher than most 'belt barriers' makes a real difference - it's set at approx 1.12 metres and the fact that it's taught really gives the psychological message 'this far and no further' whereas a 'floppy' rope says "we don't want you to go any closer to the layout than this, but if you feel you really must, then alright".

If that doesn’t work, Paul, go to an agricultural supplies merchant, thread some fuse wire into the rope and connect it to an electric fence unit…

 

Tim

[TEAMYAKIMA]

38 minutes ago, CF MRC said:

If that doesn’t work, Paul, go to an agricultural supplies merchant, thread some fuse wire into the rope and connect it to an electric fence unit…

 

Tim

 

When my court case goes to trial, I'll tell the judge that I've only got 'O' levels and when a professor advised me to do it I just assumed that it would be OK.