Class 313 EMUs to preservation on retirement?

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

Please point me to where I have said preservation is a waste of time.  I haven't considered it a waste at any of the four preservation schemes I have volunteered at over the years.

 

On second thoughts, please don't bother pointing me to anything.  You just seem to want an argument, so I'm no longer following this conversation

Thats fine, but I do value your opinion, especially as I recall seeing the 304 in Stafford sidings for a long period and hoped it would be saved.

 

lets leave it there.

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

Fyi, for those who do have an opinion against 313’s there is a rather suitable home to visit on facebook of all places…

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/338367330204390/permalink/1233004934073954/

 

The rules of joining are (I kid you not)…

 

Quote

Group rules from the admins

 

1 Praise of 313s is NOT permitted at any time

You will be removed.

2 Hate towards 313s IS encouraged

Swearing or hate speech towards another member isn't permitted.

3 Not a place for veg to argue/comment stupidly

You will be removed

4 You must hate on 313s

5 no Tripod Bashers, Veg or Noddies

They also have a picture of what looks like the first Southern 313 being scrapped at Raxstar, Eastleigh.

 

Group has nearly 400 members, whats a Noddie ?

Edited June 16, 2023 by adb968008

[John M Upton]

Confirmed, 313214 began its conversion to baked bean cans on Friday morning.

[5944]

On 15/06/2023 at 08:57, John M Upton said:

All well and good but without traction power to a 313, you can't do anything with it, not even open the doors.  And that still won't change the fact that the vast majority of cash paying visitors to heritage railways are only there to see classic steam and (at a push) early diesel locos.  "Modern" EMU's are of little or no interest to anyone except a small minority of cranks.

 

A bunch of over enthusiastic teens making YouTube videos about themselves whilst saving up their dinner money is not going to cover the thirty grand a year needed just to store the thing, it's a pipe dream, better to save their money and let it go.

Doors operate on 110V so can be run off the batteries, assuming you've got enough air to operate them. Good way of killing the batteries though!

[John M Upton]

On 19/06/2023 at 12:43, 5944 said:

Doors operate on 110V so can be run off the batteries, assuming you've got enough air to operate them. Good way of killing the batteries though!

 

Trust me, I speak from experience (i.e. being  suddenly plunged into a ghostly silent darkness) that the batteries on the 313's were absolutely knackered, the best one lasted maybe a minute before the charge gave up.

[5944]

20 hours ago, John M Upton said:

 

Trust me, I speak from experience (i.e. being  suddenly plunged into a ghostly silent darkness) that the batteries on the 313's were absolutely knackered, the best one lasted maybe a minute before the charge gave up.

Never had that problem with the ones that were properly maintained at Hornsey, must've been a Brighton issue ;-)

 

Do you know what type were fitted? Hornsey changed all theirs out to fully sealed, maintenance-free batteries many years ago, very similar to car batteries. The original ones used to give no end of problems and you'd be checking the water levels on every other exam. 

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, 5944 said:

Never had that problem with the ones that were properly maintained at Hornsey, must've been a Brighton issue ;-)

I remember on dark evenings the interior lights going out briefly during the power changeover at Drayton Park. Should the batteries have provided back up to prevent that?

[John M Upton]

Should have done but depends how the power changeover was done I think.  As I never had anything to do with the coat hanger on the roof arrangement, I am not sure.

 

What I do know is that if the third rail went off (or it got gapped) the cab heater shut down (a useful audio indication of where the gaps were, especially approaching Portsmouth & Southsea Lower Level) but the batteries in theory kept the lights and radio still working at least long enough to get over the gap and back on the juice again.

 

Towards the end it was apparent that the amount of time you had off the juice was getting significantly less, and on the one that I had a couple of months before the end, none at all.

[John M Upton]

Network Rail 313121 has moved, apparently to be stuffed and mounted in deepest darkest Scotland of all places.

[26power]

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/historic-test-train-gets-new-lease-of-life-in-fife?fbclid=IwAR07qo5yjA-xNejJXwrNPs5Oj0Mro238RUGHMCohZfpXqrd0RVtAxnpQHEQ

 

Now in Fife, judging by online pictures.

[adb968008]

313201 having a spin under its own power, in preservation.

 

is this the first non-NRM owned EMU to run under 3rd rail power in preservation albeit, still around Eastleigh yard?

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by adb968008

[John M Upton]

Where is the 'How did they manage that far without it either catching fire or breaking down?' response button when you need it...

 

First non NRM third rail to run under own power?  Try 4-VEP 3417...

[pete_mcfarlane]

You also need to add the qualifier 'standard gauge' to that.

 

Plenty of heritage 3rd electric trains on the Volks railway. 

[adb968008]

14 hours ago, John M Upton said:

Where is the 'How did they manage that far without it either catching fire or breaking down?' response button when you need it...

 

First non NRM third rail to run under own power?  Try 4-VEP 3417...

Where has the VEP run under its own power in preservation ?

(Genuine question ?)

 

I thought it was dragged to East Grinstead, then later dragged to Clapham, hence Strawberry Hill ?

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by adb968008

[Gwiwer]

16 hours ago, John M Upton said:

First non NRM third rail to run under own power?  Try 4-VEP 3417...

Did the Merseyside set run under its own power in preservation?  

[woodenhead]

47 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Did the Merseyside set run under its own power in preservation?  

Yes by Merseyrail until they disposed of it in 1988

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Yes by Merseyrail until they disposed of it in 1988

Therefore beating the claims being made in some quarters for 313001 by some 35 years.  

[John M Upton]

Hmmm, not sure about the VEP now although it did move under its own power under SWT ownership after the slammers, Lymington oddities excepted, had been binned,

 

I still cannot see what 313201 will actually be any good for though, trundling up a short bit of track at 5mph inside Eastleigh Works a couple of times a year for eternity seems to be rather pointless and away from the third rail it is nothing more than a paperweight that no heritage line will touch with a bargepole.

 

I looked at the preservation groups Facebook page and some of the comments and suggestions from some right nutters that have been posted are at best seriously ill informed and at worst, just plain laughable.

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Therefore beating the claims being made in some quarters for 313001 by some 35 years.  

Whats worse was forgetting I even rode on it at Port Sunlight along with Jinty 7298 and Prarie 4566.

Edited December 7, 2023 by adb968008

[roythebus1]

There's a lot of hot air and twaddle on here. What people are forgetting is that the modern generation EMUs are simply not compatible with any locos unless the locos have 'thunderbird" type adaptors or barrier/translator wagons are used. The brakes on these units use electronics to work the air side of the system. So not only do we have no buffers, no coupling, possibly an air supply but no power supply for the electronics.

 

At least the 1950s- to 1980s units have side buffers, a hook coupling and air brakes and can easily be dragged by a loco with a hook and the luxury of an air supply. On the new stuff you need air to release the parking brake. With an increasing number of heritage lines getting diesels with air brakes, there can be a future for the 1960s units, they can be pulled and have working brakes! Of course with a 33/1 or a 73 they can be pushed, pulled and driven.

 

To answer an earlier query, the 313s and 508s etc had a 750v bus line from new otherwise they'd never have worked.

 

I'd be interested to know how the EKR got the power from the MLVs to whatever they were working with. There's no power jumpers on the MLVs or the EP fitted stock. Mind you, there was a claim that an MLV and a parcel van made the trip from Guildford to Redhill one evening. Luckily it had good batteries and a driver with good route knowledge who knew where to shut off and make use of gravity!

 

Preservation is an expensive business says he who has been preserving old buses for 55 years now and would have been a lot better off to have taken up a cheaper hobby.

Edited January 9 by roythebus1

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, roythebus1 said:

At least the 1950s- to 1980s units have side buffers, a hook coupling and air brakes and can easily be dragged by a loco with a hook and the luxury of an air supply.

The 313s were introduced in the 70s but don’t have side buffers etc. Although I take the general point, and they were the first of what might be termed second generation units, just worth pointing out they’re slightly older than sometimes assumed.

 

On the subject of translator wagons, personally I’d see it as an extra step on top of the steps needed to loco-haul older EMUs, but it’s also something that takes it even further away from the actual experience and practice of the EMU operating when in service, in which case is there much point?

 

Increasingly I tend to think that the answer for preserved EMUs is either battery (and I look forward to seeing how the LTTG get on with applying that to their ex-IoW tube stock), main line (which brings a different set of issues) or static (in which case, do you actually need a whole unit preserved to represent the type?).

 

1 hour ago, roythebus1 said:

To answer an earlier query, the 313s and 508s etc had a 750v bus line from new otherwise they'd never have worked.

I thought the 313s (initially, the Southern ones had one fitted anyway subsequently) were not ‘allowed’ to have a bus line (unlike the other classes, which had one) because of the restrictions for running to Moorgate. Although I don’t think the source for this really explained how it related to the Moorgate restrictions so I had suspected it might be wrong.

[phil-b259]

13 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

I thought the 313s (initially, the Southern ones had one fitted anyway subsequently) were not ‘allowed’ to have a bus line (unlike the other classes, which had one) because of the restrictions for running to Moorgate. Although I don’t think the source for this really explained how it related to the Moorgate restrictions so I had suspected it might be wrong.

 

Correct!

 

The 313s did NOT have a 750 bus line fitted when built. This was partly due to safety fears* but also because it wasn't operationally necessary as the only gaps in the 3rd rail would have been over the pointwork just outside Moorgate station which is low speed and could be fitted with side ramps thus ensuring at least one of the end cars was able to receive traction power and thus keep the set moving.

 

Its was only later when they moved to the North London lines that the lack of a 750 bus line made itself felt operationally speaking - though IIRC nothing was done about it at the time and its only when they moved down to Sussex was one fitted.

 

 

* Don't forget the 1975 Moorgate crash that killed 43 people would have made anything safety related be a massive deal with respect to the new British Rail stock then in the design stage.

[009 micro modeller]

22 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

also because it wasn't operationally necessary as the only gaps in the 3rd rail would have been over the pointwork just outside Moorgate station

Similarly, didn’t the ones that moved to the North London/Watford network have extra shoes fitted, to deal with the much longer gaps on those lines?

 

24 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

* Don't forget the 1975 Moorgate crash that killed 43 people would have made anything safety related be a massive deal with respect to the new British Rail stock then in the design stage.

I should have thought of that, but I still couldn’t work out the technical reason to not have a bus line for safety reasons. Do tube trains (which also run in single bore tunnels like the ones to Moorgate) not have them either? Actually, now that I think about it, surely similar operational conditions exist on parts of the Merseyrail network (operated by 507s and 508s)?

[phil-b259]

10 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Similarly, didn’t the ones that moved to the North London/Watford network have extra shoes fitted, to deal with the much longer gaps on those lines?

 

 

IIRC those were the ones that ended up at Southern  were they not? The Siemens stock which now works Moorgate services hadn't even been built when the 313s started turning up in Sussex and had to have a 750V bus line added.

 

10 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I should have thought of that, but I still couldn’t work out the technical reason to not have a bus line for safety reasons. Do tube trains (which also run in single bore tunnels like the ones to Moorgate) not have them either? Actually, now that I think about it, surely similar operational conditions exist on parts of the Merseyrail network (operated by 507s and 508s)?

 

Perhaps it was something to do with the characteristics of the Moorgate tunnels - the ones used by Merseyrail in Liverpool were all double track or were newly built so likely of a bigger size than a 'traditional' single track tunnel.

 

 

Edited January 9 by phil-b259

[009 micro modeller]

13 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

IIRC those were the ones that ended up at Southern  were they not?

Yes, that’s the ones I meant. 

 

13 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

the ones used by Merseyrail in Liverpool were all double track or were newly built so likely of a bigger size than a 'traditional' single track tunnel.

Although I don’t think they are recent enough to have the continuous side evacuation walkway which I think is now fitted to some tunnels (very visible on Crossrail but also present on the DLR Bank tunnel section, I think). Anyway, I’m still struggling to understand the technical reason why it is considered safer not to have a bus line for Moorgate running (not disputing it, I just can’t work out why).