Class 313 EMUs to preservation on retirement?

[Bucoops]

With them trying to fundraise for warm storage, I presume the intention is to keep it mainline registered. Ambitious, but presumably it adheres to most current regs with its sliding doors etc.

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Supposedly they are significant because they were the first dual voltage (DC third rail and AC overhead) units to run in the UK

Yes and no. 
 

Yes they were the first AC/DC units but no they were not the first dual voltage units. That honour fell to the ER AM2 (later class 302) units which were the first of several classes built for both 6.25KvAC and the standard 25KvAC. The much earlier LNER units dating from 1949 which later became known as AM6 then class 306 were built for 1500vDC overhead and later converted to the ER dual-voltage scheme. 
 

1500vDC was considered a “safe” voltage bit when AC traction was on the horizon with much higher voltages it was thought that 25Kv would be too risky in urban areas so the inner areas were electrified at the lower voltage. This required two sets of kit aboard the trains and as such they were dual-voltage but not dual-system.
 

One class 306 remains with us. 
 

I understand the passions of a few who might or might not be of the “save everything” persuasion. What is unique about 313s which needs saving?  Frankly nothing. Vehicles of this general design are already preserved (the class 315 unit) and the “bits beneath the floor” are mostly represented by the 315 also.
 

I will not tell people where they should or should not put their money but will suggest they think very carefully before committing. Ask questions. Satisfy yourselves that this is a well-conceived and well-managed project with a chance of success.
 

Too many recent projects have floundered and seen “preserved” slam-door units scrapped, repurposed or simply abandoned. Those few units lucky enough to have growing support and truly active restoration schemes are typically backed by very much larger organisations.    For example the 4-Vep is not only owned by the Bluebell Railway but is supported one way or another by SWR, NR and others and benefits from having active railway staff at an active location keen to work on it on their spare time.  

 

[SandHutton]

I do wonder what happened with the preservation of 313121 and why did that fall through?  Did the NRM simply not want it as they didn't have the space / funds etc?  

 

Although I do hope 313201 is preserved I am certainly sympathetic to the view that they can't all be saved -  and indeed often aren't if and when the money runs out.  EMU preservation is clearly very difficult as they require large amounts of storage space and cannot be run on their own power on a heritage line which limits their appeal.  313201 would have to remain on the mainline to be viable with support from those in the industry or be bought by someone with access to a large storage space to keep it indefinitely as a museum piece.  

[John M Upton]

Having driven all of the Southern 313's I can throw in another factor, 201 was by far and away the worst one of the lot, notoriously unreliable and rough riding, many of the others would have made a far better choice of purchase if someone was serious about preserving one with a plan in place and the necessary shipping container load of cash that will be needed every year to just keep it together and stored, let alone run the thing which will never happen anyway.

 

Let's put it this way, when you buy a second hand car, you will have a sensible hat on, choose one that is mechanically reliable, in good condition, not just choose the one with the pretty paint job and a supposedly important number painted on it...

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

Yes they were the first AC/DC units but no they were not the first dual voltage units. That honour fell to the ER AM2 (later class 302) units which were the first of several classes built for both 6.25KvAC and the standard 25KvAC. The much earlier LNER units dating from 1949 which later became known as AM6 then class 306 were built for 1500vDC overhead and later converted to the ER dual-voltage scheme. 

Yes, I was aware of those but they are dual for two voltages of AC, not DC and AC like the 313s (although in a global context I think there was an American design built before the 313s that had the same capability).

 

From a historical point of view they are arguably more important than the other PEP designs, not just the dual-voltage thing but because they were the first production PEP-derived class (the others were 2 or 3 years later). Isn’t there also a slight difference in the control equipment for the later classes?

 

47 minutes ago, SandHutton said:

 

I do wonder what happened with the preservation of 313121 and why did that fall through?  Did the NRM simply not want it as they didn't have the space / funds etc?  

 

Did it definitely fall through? I can sort of understand the viewpoint that if it was to enter the National Collection as a static exhibit and with the alterations made for departmental use (albeit still with AC capability) then some people might want to also preserve a working one that had come straight from passenger service (i.e. 313201 in this case).

[pete_mcfarlane]

13 hours ago, John M Upton said:

As a preserved EMU, it is utterly useless, it will never carry passengers on the mainline again, no heritage railway will touch it (which is moot anyway as it needs a live rail just to make it work, no power to the shoes and it is dead as a dodo) as the vast majority of visitors to heritage railways will have absolutely no interest in it whatsoever,  the best you can hope for is a 5mph max trundle up and down a siding in Eastleigh Works once or twice a year.

I guess the real problem with 313s (and other modern units) is the lack of buffers. With the 4-COR (or Mk1 based units) you can tow them around as hauled stock using any air braked loco (including a Nord 4-6-0 if you are the Nene Valley....).

 

I don't know what you can do with a 313, except turn it into a cafe like the East Kent did with a 365. 

[John M Upton]

56 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I guess the real problem with 313s (and other modern units) is the lack of buffers. With the 4-COR (or Mk1 based units) you can tow them around as hauled stock using any air braked loco (including a Nord 4-6-0 if you are the Nene Valley....).

 

I don't know what you can do with a 313, except turn it into a cafe like the East Kent did with a 365. 

 

Also if you were to operate it "loco hauled" you would need adaptors and some sort of power supply system (Think Class 33 to a 4TC but with more technogubbins to power) just to release the brakes, pump air up, even get the doors open!!  Like I said earlier, operationally from a heritage point of view, it is utterly useless.

 

The East Kent 365 isn't even a complete unit, one car is missing but at least it has found a use, a bit like all the ex Class 412 and 422 BEP and BIG buffet cars that found second lives as cafes and restaurant facilities, these can be hauled around as essentially they were a Mk1 coach minus the buffers.

 

The 4-VEP 3417 is a very rare exception of an EMU that is both fully supported and funded but even that has not turned a wheel in years and as for the Brighton Belle project (itself a beneficiary parts wise of many failed slam door EMU preservation projects that failed), it seems to have vanished.

Edited June 9, 2023 by John M Upton

[adb968008]

I can see your passionate about scrapping all the 313’s, but all respect the group has said they have funding in place to buy it.

 

its not upto me, or you to tell someone what to do with there money…

 

 

However the group in question already own a 4Vop at the EKR, and everything you say about a 313 (dead, useless, never work again, waste of money etc)… equally applies to that.

 

It has also been preserved more than 20 years, so they obviously didnt read your memo.

 

Should they give up on the VOP too and buy a car or have a mad night out ?

I have a slightly different view, in the future EMUs are so scarece they are probably going to be more protected.

 

Further legislation will probably make an EMU more likely than steam to operate on the mainline, indeed its steam locomotives that I think will be hitting the scrap yard in greater numbers in the future, as many have had 1 ticket since 1968, the owners have grown old and the bills too large, often the offspring arent interested, in many cases classes are duplicated and those to big, or too unattractive are going to be at risk.

 

Whilst following Europe is politically unattractive, there a bunch of EMUs and a larger bunch of Overhead electrics preserved and mainline operational so it is possible, its more of an open mind thats needed….

 

if you want a railtour out of Berlin, Historic ACDC is the only way your going to do it… London wont be far behind, diesel and steam will probably be banned at the sametime.. Netherlands, Poland, Hungary etc all have some heritage AC/DC and units.

 

As for the Brighton Belle… its had that much money thrown at it. I doubt it will cease, 3417… well I recommend following their facebook page, when (not if) it comes back. (and not that far away), it’ll set a new standard in quality restoration…

 

I could see both a demand, and easy scheduling fit for EMU days out from London to “take your pick” Southern based preserved railways (Alton, East Grinstead, Wareham, Robertsbridge etc) as a day out, or even …. Look how popular the LU 4TC is.

But finally, £2.5k per month to store it at Eastleigh, are you sure ?… 35005 has been there a decade now, thats some fees they must be paying, indoors and spreadout too…on that basis, that makes it £500k they might be paying ? Theres a 442 there also (yes I know), and a few 142’s….must be Deep pockets for those too.

 

Whilst preservation of todays railways in the future is going to be smaller and more difficult, we dont need to add cancel culture to it…once its gone, it aint coming back, and Europe shows us how to do it.

 

Must be mad… ?  Pegler, Drury etc.. were seen the same way, we call them visionaries today.

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by adb968008

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I can see your passionate about scrapping all the 313’s, but all respect the group has said they have funding in place to buy it.

 

its not upto me, or you to tell someone what to do with there money…

 

 

However the group in question already own a 4Vop at the EKR, and everything you say about a 313 (dead, useless, never work again, waste of money etc)… equally applies to that.

 

It has also been preserved more than 20 years, so they obviously didnt read your memo.

 

Should they give up on the VOP too and buy a car or have a mad night out ?

I have a slightly different view, in the future EMUs are so scarece they are probably going to be more protected.

 

Further legislation will probably make an EMU more likely than steam to operate on the mainline, indeed its steam locomotives that I think will be hitting the scrap yard in greater numbers in the future, as many have had 1 ticket since 1968, the owners have grown old and the bills too large, often the offspring arent interested, in many cases classes are duplicated and those to big, or too unattractive are going to be at risk.

 

Whilst following Europe is politically unattractive, there a bunch of EMUs and a larger bunch of Overhead electrics preserved and mainline operational so it is possible, its more of an open mind thats needed….

 

if you want a railtour out of Berlin, Historic ACDC is the only way your going to do it… London wont be far behind, diesel and steam will probably be banned at the sametime.. Netherlands, Poland, Hungary etc all have some heritage AC/DC and units.

 

As for the Brighton Belle… its had that much money thrown at it. I doubt it will cease, 3417… well I recommend following their facebook page, when (not if) it comes back. (and not that far away), it’ll set a new standard in quality restoration…

 

I could see both a demand, and easy scheduling fit for EMU days out from London to “take your pick” Southern based preserved railways (Alton, East Grinstead, Wareham, Robertsbridge etc) as a day out, or even …. Look how popular the LU 4TC is.

But finally, £2.5k per month to store it at Eastleigh, are you sure ?… 35005 has been there a decade now, thats some fees they must be paying, indoors and spreadout too…on that basis, that makes it £500k they might be paying ? Theres a 442 there also (yes I know), and a few 142’s….must be Deep pockets for those too.

 

Whilst preservation of todays railways in the future is going to be smaller and more difficult, we dont need to add cancel culture to it…once its gone, it aint coming back, and Europe shows us how to do it.

 

Must be mad… ?  Pegler, Drury etc.. were seen the same way, we call them visionaries today.

 

Interesting, and I agree on many points. I think one of the main issues here is perhaps that whether it has historic value as a static exhibit, and whether it should be maintained in working order for main line use, are slightly separate questions. The former I would say probably yes, the latter I’m not entirely sure.

[adb968008]

17 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Interesting, and I agree on many points. I think one of the main issues here is perhaps that whether it has historic value as a static exhibit, and whether it should be maintained in working order for main line use, are slightly separate questions. The former I would say probably yes, the latter I’m not entirely sure.

Those buying steam locos in the 1960s said the same thing.
it feels we have gone full circle.

 

some steam locos were preserved and other passed over for seemingly unsurmountable issues in the 1960’s…. But for worn tires 45562 would still be with us.  At least one more Duchess, Britannia and 45156 may have survived but for “having no operational future”.

 

I suspect future preservation will suffer simply from lack of air braked stock, indeed I could forsee a day that heritage vac brake stock ends up being air braked.

 

 

[phil_sutters]

21 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Is that a good basis on which to judge historical significance though? Supposedly they are significant because they were the first dual voltage (DC third rail and AC overhead) units to run in the UK but surely preserving one that is now DC-only doesn’t really reflect that?

The willingness by major manufacturers to market any prototype is a measure of the interest they perceive the public has in that type and the prospect it has for sales. The historic nature of the technical details must have little sway, if the interest in the buying public, at the price the product will need to be at to be viable, is not great. That level of interest seems likely to be an indicator of the long term attractiveness of the prototype to the preservation world.

[darrel]

EMU preservation is a nightmare since you have nowhere to run them unless you go mainline which is very expensive. So until a preserved railway is electrified they will be static exhibits. 

OK so the class 313 would not be difficult to put back on the mainline just now as it has only just come out of service and has all the up to date saftey equipment fitted to it. If you were taking something older say the class 303 at Bo'ness then you would have to fit it with data recorders GSMR radio TPWS and in future ETRMS you would be talking about a million pounds just for that. Then the transformer and all the high voltage equipment would need overhauled and recertificatied. Etc hugely expensive.

 

Next problem is how do you make your money back? I'm not talking here about how do you make a profit, because you won't.

With a steam powered railtour you will have a lot of the general public willing to pay to travel on a steam train. You can get them to pay extra for first class and even more for a dining experience. You can add extra coaches to accommodate more people. 

With an EMU railtour it's mainly going to be  enthusiasts only. No first class no restaurant coach and you can't add extra coaches. So you are limited in how many tickets you can sell. 

To run a railtour with the class 313 from say Southampton to London and return you will have to pay track acsess charges and pay to hire in at least one driver and one guard. So probably in the range of 40 to 50 grand that makes tickets for the tour very expensive. Then people will complain about how expensive it is. Especially for standard class no toilets and no food. With the Brighton Belle at least you will be paying for a pullman experience including a sit down meal and some luxury which will appeal to the general public. 

Don't misunderstand me I hope they are successful and I really wish them well. As someone who is involved in EMU preservation (a static EMU) I understand the challenges they face. 

[Northmoor]

4 minutes ago, darrel said:

EMU preservation is a nightmare since you have nowhere to run them unless you go mainline which is very expensive. So until a preserved railway is electrified they will be static exhibits. 

 

Don't misunderstand me I hope they are successful and I really wish them well. As someone who is involved in EMU preservation (a static EMU) I understand the challenges they face. 

There is nothing to stop you towing an EMU with an air-braked diesel (or even steam loco), but I agree that isn't easy with an EMU without conventional buffers.  I was involved in a small way with the attempt to preserve 304021; when purchased, the unit was complete and could have been used as hauled stock with (compared to many restorations) very little effort.

 

We thought we were doing the right things but were let down by a potential host who withdrew the offer of accommodation, meanwhile several railways' representatives made all the right noises in public but declined in private.  What was most frustrating was when the refusal was on the grounds they were full, then within months the same railway would accept several scrap condition diesels. 

[009 micro modeller]

53 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

The willingness by major manufacturers to market any prototype is a measure of the interest they perceive the public has in that type and the prospect it has for sales. The historic nature of the technical details must have little sway, if the interest in the buying public, at the price the product will need to be at to be viable, is not great. That level of interest seems likely to be an indicator of the long term attractiveness of the prototype to the preservation world.

There is:

 

- an LNWR Oerlikon EMU carriage preserved in the NRM, something that as far as I know has never been produced in RTR for 00 or N.

- multiple locos and items of rolling stock in the London Transport Museum, including interesting early stuff like the C&SLR electric loco, also not produced in RTR model form.

- at least one preserved example of every stock type used regularly on the London Post Office Railway. Narrow gauge yes, but again not produced in RTR form.

- moving away from electric traction, a few standard gauge Motor Rail locos have been preserved - like this one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rpmarks/4312114035 This includes one at Amberley which is there for demonstrations and not simply because it’s convenient for shunting. I don’t think these have been produced as RTR models.

 

These are just some examples, and you could even extend the argument to non-railway subjects if you wanted to, but it’s a good job museum collections policies are not generally decided by some kind of random popularity context taken at a single point in time.

 

[adb968008]

9 hours ago, Northmoor said:

There is nothing to stop you towing an EMU with an air-braked diesel (or even steam loco), but I agree that isn't easy with an EMU without conventional buffers.  I was involved in a small way with the attempt to preserve 304021; when purchased, the unit was complete and could have been used as hauled stock with (compared to many restorations) very little effort.

 

We thought we were doing the right things but were let down by a potential host who withdrew the offer of accommodation, meanwhile several railways' representatives made all the right noises in public but declined in private.  What was most frustrating was when the refusal was on the grounds they were full, then within months the same railway would accept several scrap condition diesels. 

The ELR scrapped a class 504 for similar reasons. 

The problem may yet present a solution, if the glut of oncoming used car batteries can be harnessed in a barrier vehicle they could find a use on a preserved line. Indeed rail powered battery vehicles may some day be an option.
I recall the E27000 group wanted to explore that years ago.

 

I have ridden behind an EMU on a preserved railway last summer.. with the two MLVs at Midhants powering the EPB, before that was Test Unit Gemini… the 60 year old long forgotten original two car BEMU..non of this cutting edge class 230 stuff, its all been done before.

Edited June 10, 2023 by adb968008

[John M Upton]

All well and good but without traction power to a 313, you can't do anything with it, not even open the doors.  And that still won't change the fact that the vast majority of cash paying visitors to heritage railways are only there to see classic steam and (at a push) early diesel locos.  "Modern" EMU's are of little or no interest to anyone except a small minority of cranks.

 

A bunch of over enthusiastic teens making YouTube videos about themselves whilst saving up their dinner money is not going to cover the thirty grand a year needed just to store the thing, it's a pipe dream, better to save their money and let it go.

[adb968008]

11 hours ago, John M Upton said:

All well and good but without traction power to a 313, you can't do anything with it, not even open the doors.  And that still won't change the fact that the vast majority of cash paying visitors to heritage railways are only there to see classic steam and (at a push) early diesel locos.  "Modern" EMU's are of little or no interest to anyone except a small minority of cranks.

 

Time to scrap every preserved emu then ?

how about steam cranes, preserved wagons, doubt we need a TPO again ?

LSL must be wasting money to?

What use all those HST power cars being preserved ?

should the ACLG give up to, maybe scrap the only. 81,82,83,85 and 89 ?

 

(fwiw I have actually had an 81 for haulage on a preserved railway, admittedly it was “not quitel 25kv).

 

11 hours ago, John M Upton said:

 

A bunch of over enthusiastic teens making YouTube videos about themselves whilst saving up their dinner money is not going to cover the thirty grand a year needed just to store the thing, it's a pipe dream, better to save their money and let it go.

Thats a damaging statement, considering those behind it already have had an EMU preserved for 20 odd years and so must be way beyond school age physically and economically to have done so.

 

Have you read their website…?

 

Quote

We are owners of 4-VOP 3905 at the East Kent Railway Trust, alongside our ambitious “Batteries Included” project which will see a 1963 stock EMU unit operate under battery power for the first time in the UK.

one vehicle which is undergoing conversion at Ramparts in Derby.

Other vehicles in their care have been overhauled and are in use.

 

And in relation to 313201….

 

Quote

The purchase price of the unit has been covered.

 

Don't let red mist get ahead of you, if they read that, they could ask you to prove your words, especially if it damages them, socially as well as economically… unless your telling me their website is fake and their objectives are false ?

 

Should I be asking them to clarify your words ?

EMU preservation today is indeed a niche, as is preserved electrics in general, they need the help they can get.

 

I find your position confusing when considering looking at your profile and prior posts that felt somewhat celebrating 313’s ?

But if you are dead set against EMU or 313 preservation, why not just leave them alone ?

 

if no one does it, there wont be anything to enjoy in the future.
 

But if their website is true, then it seems a better chance than some other projects (many which I agree do fail the facebook/youtube test).. but even the youthful enthusiasm to try is best encouraged and nutured for the future, than stamped out… preservation is littered with stories of elders that have talked down to the younger ones leading them to walk away and that maybe contributing to why steam preservation is now failing.

 

Personally I wish them well, their aim is a good one, and in the future they may prove to be holding the future of mainline railtours in the south some day.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by adb968008

[Matt37268]

17 hours ago, John M Upton said:

 

 

A bunch of over enthusiastic teens making YouTube videos about themselves whilst saving up their dinner money is not going to cover the thirty grand a year needed just to store the thing, it's a pipe dream, better to save their money and let it go.

Didn’t a bunch of over enthusiastic teens decide to buy a 14xx Auto Tank and Trailer with their dinner money way back in the 1960’s? 
Whatever happened to them? 

[Northmoor]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

Time to scrap every preserved emu then ?

how about steam cranes, preserved wagons, doubt we need a TPO again ?

LSL must be wasting money to?

What use all those HST power cars being preserved ?

should the ACLG give up to, maybe scrap the only. 81,82,83,85 and 89 ?

 

(fwiw I have actually had an 81 for haulage on a preserved railway, admittedly it was “not quitel 25kv).

 

Thats a damaging statement, considering those behind it already have had an EMU preserved for 20 odd years and so must be way beyond school age physically and economically to have done so.

 

Have you read their website…?

 

one vehicle which is undergoing conversion at Ramparts in Derby.

Other vehicles in their care have been overhauled and are in use.

 

And in relation to 313201….

 

 

Don't let red mist get ahead of you, if they read that, they could ask you to prove your words, especially if it damages them, socially as well as economically… unless your telling me their website is fake and their objectives are false ?

 

Should I be asking them to clarify your words ?

EMU preservation today is indeed a niche, as is preserved electrics in general, they need the help they can get.

 

I find your position confusing when considering looking at your profile and prior posts that felt somewhat celebrating 313’s ?

But if you are dead set against EMU or 313 preservation, why not just leave them alone ?

 

if no one does it, there wont be anything to enjoy in the future.
 

But if their website is true, then it seems a better chance than some other projects (many which I agree do fail the facebook/youtube test).. but even the youthful enthusiasm to try is best encouraged and nutured for the future, than stamped out… preservation is littered with stories of elders that have talked down to the younger ones leading them to walk away and that maybe contributing to why steam preservation is now failing.

 

Personally I wish them well, their aim is a good one, and in the future they may prove to be holding the future of mainline railtours in the south some day.

 

 

All true and having been involved with the ACLG since the outset, including trying to preserve 304021, I'm probably more aware than most of the challenges.

 

However the points made by @John M Upton are fair; 313201 is he says, the worst example but this is the one they want, presumably because it's in the livery they want.  But livery is one of the easiest things to change!  Knackered mechanicals cost orders of magnitude to address.  This shows a naivety which doesn't bode well.  Also, what is  happening to the ex-NR 313121?

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

All true and having been involved with the ACLG since the outset, including trying to preserve 304021, I'm probably more aware than most of the challenges.

 

However the points made by @John M Upton are fair; 313201 is he says, the worst example but this is the one they want, presumably because it's in the livery they want.  But livery is one of the easiest things to change!  Knackered mechanicals cost orders of magnitude to address.  This shows a naivety which doesn't bode well.  Also, what is  happening to the ex-NR 313121?

I thought they wanted it because it was the first one.

[John M Upton]

Don't get me wrong, yes I would like to see a 313 preserved and running but put the sensible hat on and you can quickly see that financially and practically it is simple not viable.

 

The NRM was the only realistic hope, even they have said no so that leaves us with the thirty grand a year just to store it plan which simply isn't going to happen especially when you consider all the ongoing costs that will be heaped on top of that for something that the vast majority have little or no interest in and operationally from a heritage point of view is utterly useless except as a static accommodation for a cafe or museum display.

 

I just don't want to see people waste their money which could be better invested elsewhere. 

[adb968008]

13 hours ago, John M Upton said:

Don't get me wrong, yes I would like to see a 313 preserved and running but put the sensible hat on and you can quickly see that financially and practically it is simple not viable.

 

Tell me anything beyond Scotsman, Belmond and the Dartmouth Railway in this hobby that is viable ?

 

it all fails the test.

it all exists only through goodwill and volunteers. 
This year many even popular established lines are struggling. I’m 

Let face it the steam side of the hobby is shrinking. The mainline is a shadow of variety from 10 years ago.

Preserved lines also are shrinking in variety down to a profitable core.

we are seeing hope abandoned and many pregrouping no hope carriages have bitten dust, despite being saved for decades… no one wants to take them on…

 

all preservation is deferred scrapping.

Edited June 16, 2023 by adb968008

[Northmoor]

19 hours ago, Matt37268 said:

Didn’t a bunch of over enthusiastic teens decide to buy a 14xx Auto Tank and Trailer with their dinner money way back in the 1960’s? 
Whatever happened to them? 

The difference, is that the nay-sayers to the founders of the GWS knew nothing about railway preservation, because at the time hardly anyone did.  Their present-day equivalents are being advised by people with decades of preservation experience.  We've been there, made the mistakes and are advising them how they might achieve more than we did. 

 

"Those who fail to learn from history are destined to repeat it".

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

The difference, is that the nay-sayers to the founders of the GWS knew nothing about railway preservation, because at the time hardly anyone did.  Their present-day equivalents are being advised by people with decades of preservation experience.  We've been there, made the mistakes and are advising them how they might achieve more than we did. 

 

"Those who fail to learn from history are destined to repeat it".

so your saying preservation is a waste of time, we should all go out and get a different hobby ?

 

I let three items goto scrap at different times, which were in my financial gift to both save and overhaul at the time, because I listened to naysayers.

But just because I let them go, doesn't mean i’d sink into someone elses preferred project instead.

so the hobby lost one source of income.

 

Telling a group that has the funds to buy something, to give it up and let it go… its destructive, not just to that group, but to otheres reading it who may do the same to their project of interest.

 

So really is the message, that after 75+ years, that its time for the hobby to give it all up, scrap it all ?

 

sometimes youve got to let the younger generation make their own mistakes, because their world isnt yours and your experiences may not be relevent to their needs….
 

imo An EMU has far more potential on the mainline in the long term than any diesel or steam loco. But agree in the short term it does have some considerable hurdles, which maybe large, but no different to a bunch of teenagers with no railway experience figuring out how to overhaul a poor quality boiler back in 1968.

 

There is probably only 1 person who can really give them advice on maintaining an Electric Unit to mainline standards… Les Ross… he’s kept 86259 going for years, on his own and ive no idea how much it costs to store it at Rugby, but hes figured it out, even if he moved it from Willesden at one point.

 

This £2.5k a month seems to be an issue, nothing cheaper elsewhere ? 

Edited June 16, 2023 by adb968008

[Northmoor]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

so your saying preservation is a waste of time, we should all go out and get a different hobby ?

Please point me to where I have said preservation is a waste of time.  I haven't considered it a waste at any of the four preservation schemes I have volunteered at over the years.

 

On second thoughts, please don't bother pointing me to anything.  You just seem to want an argument, so I'm no longer following this conversation