Do you need the check-rail or tram-rail on a dock if the ground is cobbled?

[MarcD]

I'm in the middle  of building a micro layout based on a dock side. I'm wondering if I need to build the track to have a constent check-rail or to look like tram rail? my intention is to cobble the whole area so only the top of the railhead is visable.

 

Marc

Edited April 9, 2023 by MarcD

[davknigh]

Marc,

 

You might want to give this side a look for hints if nothing else.  If you are working in P4 the track should be usable as is but check with Andy to be sure.

https://www.proto87.com/Paved_industrial_or_dockside_track.html

 

Cheers,

 

David

[MarcD]

I'm actually building two layouts one in p4 and one in S7(I). So it might work for the P4 layout.

 

Marc

[Fat Controller]

Looking at the many views of both dock, and on-street , tracks in 'The Nevill's Dock and Railway Company', no checkrails are evident. The most recent photos date from the mid-1960s.

[pb_devon]

My experience is a large rail served dockyard in south west England.

Cobbled areas were at older rail installations (now disused) and a check rail was provided to maintain the ‘groove’ as cobbles can get displaced. Tram rail usage is more modern and as a result is in tarmac and concrete surfaced locations.

[MarcD]

Check rail it is then, as the layouts under construction are both set pre-1930

Marc

[Asterix2012]

In the local docks in Dundee grooved tramway track and checkrailed track was used 

 

The tramway track dates back to the 19th century and was set in cobbles

[jim.snowdon]

On 10/04/2023 at 08:35, MarcD said:

Check rail it is then, as the layouts under construction are both set pre-1930

Marc

Going by the Edgar Allen book, which dates from about 1950, 'railway' grooved rail was available and used for some industrial layouts. But, equally common seems to have been the use of 'guarded' rail - flatbottom rail combined with a bulb angle, and double rail. The first is visually difficult to distinguish from grooved rail once it has all been buried in the road paving.

 

 

 

[roythebus1]

Railway wheels don't run very well in tramway rail, the flanges are too deep and, in true model railway form, the back-to-backs are different.

[Enterprisingwestern]

57 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

Railway wheels don't run very well in tramway rail, the flanges are too deep and, in true model railway form, the back-to-backs are different.

 

Some tramways had a gauge of 4' 7 3/4" to allow railway stock to run on it's flanges I believe.

 

Mike.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

1 minute ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Some tramways had a gauge of 4' 7 3/4" to allow railway stock to run on it's flanges I believe.

 

Mike.

Glasgow is the only 4' 7¾" tramway I know of, and that was indeed to allow ordinary railway wagons to run on tram tracks, but I didn't think they ran on their flanges. I thought the grooved rails were deep enough to accommodate ordinary railway flanges, but they weren't wide enough, hence a slight narrowing of gauge was needed so wheelsets didn't bind or try to ride up the inside of the groove.

 

I was under the impression that modern grooved rail had wider grooves, and that modern trams had ordinary railway wheel profiles, but I could be mistaken.

 

With tight curves, I doubt grooved rails would act very well as check rails; the inisde lip is angled and is often slightly below the rail head, so it won't engage effectively with the back of the flange. The rails in @jim.snowdon's post would all be fine as check rails.

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, roythebus1 said:

Railway wheels don't run very well in tramway rail, the flanges are too deep and, in true model railway form, the back-to-backs are different.

BS11 once included a 126 lb/yd grooved rail section specifically for railway wheels.

 

[jim.snowdon]

25 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Glasgow is the only 4' 7¾" tramway I know of, and that was indeed to allow ordinary railway wagons to run on tram tracks, but I didn't think they ran on their flanges. I thought the grooved rails were deep enough to accommodate ordinary railway flanges, but they weren't wide enough, hence a slight narrowing of gauge was needed so wheelsets didn't bind or try to ride up the inside of the groove.

Apart from the tramways in the greater Glasgow area, those in and around Portsmouth and the Huddersfield system were also laid to 4' 7 3/4" gauge so as to accommodate railway wagons.

 

Elsewhere, the Cork city tramways were laid to 2' 11 1/2" gauge to accommodate 3' gauge railway stock, and the Dublin tramways were 5' 2 3/16" for 5' 3" railway stock.

 

39 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I was under the impression that modern grooved rail had wider grooves, and that modern trams had ordinary railway wheel profiles, but I could be mistaken.

The Board of Trade (and their successors) were of the view that the width of ordinary railway flangeways was unacceptable for general street use. Tram flanges (and flangeways) have always been narrower than railway standards. They are also shallower, largely to do with coping with tight curves.

 

44 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

With tight curves, I doubt grooved rails would act very well as check rails; the inside lip is angled and is often slightly below the rail head, so it won't engage effectively with the back of the flange.

The flanges on tramway wheels are more rounded and/or tapered on the backs, unlike the straight backs of railway wheels. It is all to do with getting round tight corners, and even then standard practice is to use a wider groove rail on corners to avoid the flanges becoming wedged across the groove.

Traditionally, the same grooved rail did for check rails as for plain track, but modern practice is to use a rail profile that is rolled without a groove, the groove then being milled in to precise dimensions as part of the pointwork assembly. A few 2nd generation UK tramways use adjustable horizontal plates as check rails in pointwork, but that is more a consequence of railway designers trying to build tramways.

 

My background has included both tramway maintenance and design (Croydon) and light railways with tramway geometry (Docklands).

 

[roythebus1]

I had a conversation with Tony Hultman of Gothenberg Tramways about this sort of stuff a couple of years ago and he confirms what Jim has said above. There's some little-used emergency crossovers in Manchester where the trams actually run over the top of the running rail when they are crossing over. On the straight rail there is a continuous groove.

 

Tram wheels have different profiles to suit the systems they are to operate on, curves, whether they have ride-over crossings as mentioned above..

[keefer]

I see Glasgow has been mentioned, I was going to suggest the Whiteinch Tramway, serving warehouses on the north bank if the Clyde.

Can't remember where I read it, it might be in the ScR Sectional Appendix so I'll have a look.

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

I had a conversation with Tony Hultman of Gothenberg Tramways about this sort of stuff a couple of years ago and he confirms what Jim has said above. There's some little-used emergency crossovers in Manchester where the trams actually run over the top of the running rail when they are crossing over. On the straight rail there is a continuous groove.

 

Tram wheels have different profiles to suit the systems they are to operate on, curves, whether they have ride-over crossings as mentioned above..

Lift over crossings used to be quite common on the first generation tramways, being supplied as castings that fitted either side of the through running rail, which remained continuous.

 

[Dave John]

For the parts of my layout yard  that are covered in setts I used code 75 bh for the running rail and some code 55 ish N gauge rail as the checkrail. Construction was copperclad with some brass shim so that both heads were level. The effect is like that second pic , the inner rail is narrower that the running rail. 

 

In EM I think that the space between the running and inner rail is a bit wider than true scale  but it does mean that the sets between the inner rails are supported and it is practical and cleanable. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

11 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

I had a conversation with Tony Hultman of Gothenberg Tramways about this sort of stuff a couple of years ago and he confirms what Jim has said above. There's some little-used emergency crossovers in Manchester where the trams actually run over the top of the running rail when they are crossing over. On the straight rail there is a continuous groove.

 

Tram wheels have different profiles to suit the systems they are to operate on, curves, whether they have ride-over crossings as mentioned above..

 

8 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Lift over crossings used to be quite common on the first generation tramways, being supplied as castings that fitted either side of the through running rail, which remained continuous.

 

 

On the Sheffield Tramway system we knew these as bump crossings.

 

Mike.

[Re6/6]

This is my take on 'quayside track' built many years ago!

 

P4

Edited July 3, 2023 by Re6/6

[Compound2632]

On 09/04/2023 at 14:54, MarcD said:

S7(I)

 

Is that 36.75 mm gauge to S7 standards?

[MarcD]

Yes it is. I have three micro layouts under development one in P4, one in S7(33mm) and one in S7(I)(36.75mm). The S7 one is up first. It is a bear baseboard at the moment with some of the rail down. It has to be ready for mid October. So no pressure there then.

Marc

 

[Steven B]

A siding at Bristol Harbour:

45473 by Ben Abel, on Flickr

 

 

Steven B

[Grovenor]

Interesting, what is polishing the flangeway guard iron?

[kevinlms]

7 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Interesting, what is polishing the flangeway guard iron?

Peco track cleaner? PL-41

[Enterprisingwestern]

4 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Interesting, what is polishing the flangeway guard iron?

 

Pete and Dud.

Worst job I ever had.

 

Mike.