How common were loco changes en route in the diesel era?

[Rivercider]

In the 1980s once the Portsmouth to Bristol  service had become hourly worked by class 33s, with most trains extended to Cardiff, then it was common for there to be a loco change at Bristol.

 

cheers

 

[newbryford]

5 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

In the 1980s once the Portsmouth to Bristol  service had become hourly worked by class 33s, with most trains extended to Cardiff, then it was common for there to be a loco change at Bristol.

 

cheers

 

 

Loco changes which involved a reversal/run round seems like a fairly sensible move.

 

I wonder if the OP is after instances where the loco change was at the same end?

And not a change of traction such as diesel to electric?

[Nearholmer]

Oh, I’ve thought of a really annoying one: when engineers’ trains crossed regional boundaries and the loco crews weren’t trained on “the other lot’s” locos or routes.

 

Annoying, because it once caused me to nearly freeze to death while overseeing a train laying cable at Reading. The 33 and crew beetled off into the frozen darkness, and the Great Western had lost the crew/loco/will to rescue us, so there we sat, for hours, until a 31 and crew could be found and despached from OOC. We sent the gangs to walk back to huddle in their vans, but a couple of us had to spend the time pestering “control” (no mobile phones then, so finding a phone was the start), and trying to get a fire going in a guard’s van stove that wouldn’t draw while the train was stationary using rubbish found at the line-side as fuel. I can’t remember where the guard was, or whether we needed a new guard too.

[Chris M]

Thanks for all the replies. all of them are most interesting. It seems loco changes in the diesel era were pretty common in places. My main interest is where inter-regional workings to the WR mainline in Devon & Cornwall changed from diesel electric to diesel hydraulic. It does seem that during the 1960s pretty much all passenger trains from Devon & Cornwall to anywhere in the north would have had hydraulic haulage to Bristol. 

[Rivercider]

8 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Loco changes which involved a reversal/run round seems like a fairly sensible move.

 

I wonder if the OP is after instances where the loco change was at the same end?

And not a change of traction such as diesel to electric?

Yes I think so, I am probably guilty of thread drift.

As mentioned above I believe the practice of swapping a Peak for Warship at Bristol Temple Meads was standard procedure on NE - SW  services from the end of steam until about 1970.

 

cheers 

[Neil]

There was a Scarborough to York service which set off behind Scarborough's 03 pilot (substituting for a failed DMU) which got as far as Seamer where it met a loco sent light engine from York to take the train onward.

[25kV]

10 hours ago, newbryford said:

London-Barrow was another electric/diesel change at Preston.

 

[*]

One regular working was a Manchester-Glasgow that combined with a Liverpool-Edinburgh at Preston and split at Carstairs.

(The Liverpool portion would be shunted from Plat 2 to Plat 3 with an 08, whilst the 47 off the Manc was being swapped for a leccy on P3)

Usual power from Manc/Lpl was a 47/4 with an 86 working through to Glasgow. A 47 (often a spare 47/7) would work the Carstairs-Edinburgh leg.

 

The southbound return would be the opposite move with traction.

Requiring smart work at Preston to get both the Manc and Lpl section on their way from P4

 

 

If I remember correctly, occasionally both northbound legs would arrive into P3, requiring a release move to get the Liverpool loco out of the way - and the only reason I think this occurred is that somewhere I have a photo of a Peak in just that predicament (which was a rarity in itself)! 

[Edwin_m]

I believe that in steam days the (G)WR preferred to change to its own locomotives on its own lines as both were fitted with the ATC system.  I can't track down a date for the final removal of ATC but mid-1970s rings a bell (an AWS one!), so would this also have been a reason to change locomotives at places such as Bristol? 

[The Red Admiral]

23 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Are you suggesting that the LMR might take them back?

Not exactly, Western region sometimes rostered 50s on inter-regional but they returned from New Street on a reciprocal working. They were diagrammed in this way.

[The Red Admiral]

As an aside, in about 82 I was staying in Llandudno for a week and planned a day trip to Ffestiniog. It was a unit (I think 101) to Llandudno junction, then a 40 worked in tandem up the hill, as they weren't compatible.  Worth the week on its own. We were BB&EM though and I was late for tea! 

[C126]

Just to clarify @Rivercider 's contribution, at Bristol T.M. the Brighton/Portsmouth - Cardiff changed direction, so a different 33 was put on the other end.  I was miffed to discover this when doing the route for the first time, missing a photo.

 

Also, the loco-changes at Mitre Bridge Jn to/from 25Kv used loops either side of the inter-regional Kensington Olympia train.  I.e., the diesel would come off the front and trundle down one side, while an 'overhead loco' was waiting at the top of the loop the other.  I was fascinated as a little lad watching this through the carriage windows, trying to work out what was going on.  See Andy Gibbs's excellent site , 1S76.com.

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Yes I think so, I am probably guilty of thread drift.

As mentioned above I believe the practice of swapping a Peak for Warship at Bristol Temple Meads was standard procedure on NE - SW  services from the end of steam until about 1970.

 

cheers 

I think the balancing engine change in the other direction would be the more important consideration. 

If you let a Warship too far from the Western Region, the rest of BR would treat it like HMS Troutbridge.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Has anyone mentioned changing locos at Plymouth? This was quite frequent, especially when the D6XX were largely confined to Cornwall. Also attachment/detachment of D63XXs at Newton Abbot when on assisting duties over the South Devon banks.

[Peter Eaton]

23 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Can't remember if locos ran round at Nottingham, or if a different one was attached on the through St Pan - Sheff trains.

There usually was a Peak on the middle road for the Northern express change around for London & vice versa, on the MML via Trent.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Peter Eaton
spelt

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Less seems to have been written about what happened at Swansea, when trains reversed. Presumably, due to the proximity of Landore (and the layout of High St station), locos were changed, rather than run-round.

Presumably, Thousands worked trains down from Padd, then Hymeks continued the journey west of Swansea. 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Peter Kazmierczak

[Rugd1022]

Loco changes at Rugby Midland were a daily occurrence between '64 and '66 when steam, diesel and electric worked side by side, although steam was pretty much gone by mid to late '65. The route south of Rugby wasn't fully energised until April '66 so there were still a fair number of Sulzer Type 2s and EE Type 4s knocking about on local and express passenger jobs, sometimes during layovers at Rugby both types would be used on three coach stoppers on the line to Market Harborough and Peterborough, and on returning to Rugby would be attached to Euston bound services once more.

[Steamport Southport]

On 27/05/2023 at 10:09, The Red Admiral said:

In the 80s, WR didn't allow 50s north of New Street and so they often had a change of motive power there. The 46s , 45s and 47s could work through but often, I believe, the issue was tank size for longer distance trains and so there were frequently changes of one 47 for another similar. As an aside, sometimess Laira only had 47s with no heating and sent these on the route as a lower priority than GW routes, that were often changed at New Street.

 

Scarborough TP services were sometimes swapped at York around the same time. Whistlers, Peaks, Duffs and even The occasional Deltic could be seen in platforms 6 and 7 awaiting the westward service, having been ttaken off  the train from Liverpool, Manchhester, Holyhead, Llandudno. 
 

There were changes at Waverley for KX to Aberdeen, Inverness due to Deltics having a 460 mile fuel capacity and KX to Edinburgh being 393 miles.

 

Then there is Carstairs, where sparrkies were swapped for cross border routes to either GW metals or Euston. 
 

i may have misjudged the topic but it gave me a chance to unload some prior knowledge.

 

A good source of information would be the LH(2 digit year) ie LH82, which lists loco hauled diagams, so if we knew what was on a specific train, we could find out what it was likely to haul next. I did have a few but no idea where they went.

 

I would suggest that was early 1980s. By the end of the decade the 50s were seen occasionally in Manchester. Must have seen about a dozen or so including 50007.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/4025949870

 

 

 

Jason

[Rivercider]

On 27/05/2023 at 07:23, rogerzilla said:

Common in the 80s due to breakdowns!

 

In the 50s and early 60s, water for steam heating boilers may have been an issue as water troughs (some early diesels had water scoops - Ramsbottom would have been proud) and columns started to disappear.

There was a water supply at Bristol Temple Meads to enable steam heating boiler tanks to be filled.

The hoses at the platform ends were there until at least the early 1980s.

Here is the water stand pipe at the east end between platforms 7 and 9. Loco 31423 waits to depart with the 06.53 service to Portsmouth Harbour, 10/5/80.

 

Edit - and at the west end  adjacent to platform 10.

 

West end pilot 08756 hauls a rake of new Mitsubishi vans out of Temple Meads to Pylle Hill, where they will be unloaded for road haulage to Royal Portbury Dock for export, 5/8/83

 

 

cheers

Edited May 28, 2023 by Rivercider
Additional photo and info.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Less seems to have been written about what happened at Swansea, when trains reversed. Presumably, due to the proximity of Landore (and the layout of High St station), locos were changed, rather than run-round.

Presumably, Thousands worked trains down from Padd, then Hymeks continued the journey west of Swansea. 

You are correct in assuming that a new loco would be attached at the former rear at Swansea; it would normally (at least during the period 1966 to '73) be a Thousand or a Brush. Hymecs seemed to be reserved for Parcels and Express freights. If the train was booked to continue beyond Carmarthen, there would be a further change of material there.

There was a turntable and coaling/ watering facilities at Swansea (High St), on the remains of the North Dock branch, so that locos didn't have to go into Landore

[The Red Admiral]

3 hours ago, Rivercider said:

There was a water supply at Bristol Temple Meads to enable steam heating boiler tanks to be filled.

The hoses at the platform ends were there until at least the early 1980s.

Here is the water stand pipe at the east end between platforms 7 and 9. Loco 31423 waits to depart with the 06.53 service to Portsmouth Harbour, 10/5/80.

 

Edit - and at the west end  adjacent to platform 10.

 

West end pilot 08756 hauls a rake of new Mitsubishi vans out of Temple Meads to Pylle Hill, where they will be unloaded for road haulage to Royal Portbury Dock for export, 5/8/83

 

 

cheers

The water stand pipes were available at York, I can't remember when they were removed. I assumed they were there until electrification but I doubt that now. Somebody will know more about when they were removed.

[Morello Cherry]

Not the UK but one of the best journey's for loco changes has to be Budapest to Cluj. MAV Electric from Budapest to ?, change from electric to diesel, diesel to the border, loco change at the border, followed by CFR diesel to Cluj where if it is going further east it will revert to electric traction.

 

[D7666]

Bristol TM 1960s diesel engines changes - for the lost part this was driven by AWS / ATC rather than any other reason.

 

WR locos had legacy GWR ATC, non WR locos had BR AWS.

 

D800s D1000s D7000s etc were delivered new only with GWR ATC.

 

Only when enough "dual AWS" had been fitted could (a) WR locos work further, and then (b) change over the routes from ATC to AWS.

 

There was a step change in NE/SW Bristol engine changing or not in (I think) the 1970 timetable. (And from then on things like 25s and 31s could be allocated to general WR traffic)

 

It is true there were traction knowledge limits, but these too were part driven by the AWS / ATC issue. since a non WR non ATC type could not penetrate beyond Bristol in normal circumstances, the WR crews west thereof did not learn them. And v.v.

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by D7666

[Flood]

Until 1979, when buffet cars ran throughout to Penzance ready for the change to HSTs, virtually all* loco hauled passenger trains (and some parcels trains) arriving at Plymouth from the West changed locos. This was for two reasons 1. a buffet and a couple of coaches would be removed from a West bound train from Paddington to work the next service East bound back to Paddington and 2. the loco working from Paddington/Bristol (or further North) in a West bound direction would work straight back from Penzance East bound and then be fuelled at Laira. The Liverpool - Penzance and Leeds- Penzance services also dropped coaches at Plymouth so these were frequently worked by a Western Region loco from Penzance to Plymouth and a London Midland/Eastern Region loco from Plymouth to the North.

 

*I say virtually all as some Summer Saturday trains did not swap locos when arriving at Plymouth from the West.

[Nearholmer]

Has anybody mentioned the use of Class 50 to complete the trip from Euston to Glasgow until wiring was complete?

[The Red Admiral]

19 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I would suggest that was early 1980s. By the end of the decade the 50s were seen occasionally in Manchester. Must have seen about a dozen or so including 50007.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/4025949870

 

 

 

Jason

Yes, that was the very end of the 80s, paving the way for cascaded HSTs on routes from WR and SR to Manchester in the 90s.