How common were loco changes en route in the diesel era?

[Chris M]

I did a search but couldn't find anything on this. I'm thinking late sixties especially on this one and West Country but it would be interesting to hear wider information.

 

During the steam age we know that locos were often changed en route. I'm pretty sure Bristol was where South West to Midlands and the North changed from a WR loco to an LMR loco. Just wondering how long this practice continued into the diesel era. Brush type 4s were seen in the West Country in the 1960s but I think they were fairly rare and pretty much no other diesel electrics seem to have been seen on the WR main line in the South West until the early 1970s when some 46s were transferred to Bristol shed. So I am wondering - did the practice of changing locos on SW to NE passenger trains continue right through the 1960s?  Also - when did the practice change to one loco in charge for the whole trip? I'm sure many folk here will know. I guess a loco change would have been necessary due to crews with the required road knowledge for a route not having been trained on diesels from other regions - especially when the change was between hydraulic and diesel electric.

[rogerzilla]

Common in the 80s due to breakdowns!

 

In the 50s and early 60s, water for steam heating boilers may have been an issue as water troughs (some early diesels had water scoops - Ramsbottom would have been proud) and columns started to disappear.

[Wickham Green too]

Very common when the diesel era north of, say, Crewe interfaced with the electric era south thereof. ( Equally, diesel west of Bournemouth and electric to the east.) 

[Edwin_m]

Trains that reversed at New Street probably had a loco change rather than a run-round - most were swapping to/from electric in any case.  I think trains reversing at Gloucester (after closure of Eastgate) sometimes swapped too.  

Edited May 27, 2023 by Edwin_m

[Andy Kirkham]

I was a spotter at Temple Meads. When I started in 1967, diesel-electrics were usually changed for a hydraulic when heading west. This ceased in about 1970, at the time of the re-signaling, and thereafter the Peaks and Brushes worked through.

[The Red Admiral]

In the 80s, WR didn't allow 50s north of New Street and so they often had a change of motive power there. The 46s , 45s and 47s could work through but often, I believe, the issue was tank size for longer distance trains and so there were frequently changes of one 47 for another similar. As an aside, sometimess Laira only had 47s with no heating and sent these on the route as a lower priority than GW routes, that were often changed at New Street.

 

Scarborough TP services were sometimes swapped at York around the same time. Whistlers, Peaks, Duffs and even The occasional Deltic could be seen in platforms 6 and 7 awaiting the westward service, having been ttaken off  the train from Liverpool, Manchhester, Holyhead, Llandudno. 
 

There were changes at Waverley for KX to Aberdeen, Inverness due to Deltics having a 460 mile fuel capacity and KX to Edinburgh being 393 miles.

 

Then there is Carstairs, where sparrkies were swapped for cross border routes to either GW metals or Euston. 
 

i may have misjudged the topic but it gave me a chance to unload some prior knowledge.

 

A good source of information would be the LH(2 digit year) ie LH82, which lists loco hauled diagams, so if we knew what was on a specific train, we could find out what it was likely to haul next. I did have a few but no idea where they went.

[kevinlms]

24 minutes ago, The Red Admiral said:

In the 80s, WR didn't allow 50s north of New Street and so they often had a change of motive power there.

 

Are you suggesting that the LMR might take them back?

[keefer]

On the ScR, KX-Aberdeen trains would change locos at Edinburgh Waverley. The Deltic would come off and head to Haymarket depot for fuel and would be replaced with a cl.40 for the run to Aberdeen. This happened as the Deltics were all required for the ECML trains.

Once the HSTs entered service in sufficient numbers, the l/h Aberdeen trains still swapped locos but it was often one Deltic for another.

NE-SW trains from Abdn/Dundee/Edin (e.g. 1V93 Ed-Paignton?) I think swapped locos at York.

Northbound sleepers, depending on destination, would swap from electric to diesel at Mossend.

[Reorte]

At the start of this century I was travelling Manchester - Penrith and there was a loco change at Preston (last days before Voyagers appeared on that route). I didn't do the journey often enough to know if it was routine though (if it wasn't then there would've been quite a bit of diesel loco running under wires).

[Hal Nail]

In the 70s, South West to North services changed locos and reversed at Reading (bar a short period using the curve at Reading West). I presume this would have happened prior to then as well.

 

Usually 47s but sometimes a 33 to Reading.

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Common in the 80s due to breakdowns!

 

I don't think they were changed so much as hauled dead by another sent to rescue the failed train.

 

[Phil Bullock]

5 hours ago, Chris M said:

I did a search but couldn't find anything on this. I'm thinking late sixties especially on this one and West Country but it would be interesting to hear wider information.

 

During the steam age we know that locos were often changed en route. I'm pretty sure Bristol was where South West to Midlands and the North changed from a WR loco to an LMR loco. Just wondering how long this practice continued into the diesel era. Brush type 4s were seen in the West Country in the 1960s but I think they were fairly rare and pretty much no other diesel electrics seem to have been seen on the WR main line in the South West until the early 1970s when some 46s were transferred to Bristol shed. So I am wondering - did the practice of changing locos on SW to NE passenger trains continue right through the 1960s?  Also - when did the practice change to one loco in charge for the whole trip? I'm sure many folk here will know. I guess a loco change would have been necessary due to crews with the required road knowledge for a route not having been trained on diesels from other regions - especially when the change was between hydraulic and diesel electric.

And not to forget Worcester loco changes for Hereford trains…. Often like for like, a Hymek or Warship

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Temple Meads was very much a "frontier" station in the early/mid-60s of dieselisation. "All change" was the order of the day. Remember that Bath Road had an allocation of "Peaks" right from the early  60s, but they didn't work west of Bristol until the late 60s. Think some of the first Brush 4s to work west of Bristol were on freights, such as the "Clayliner". From memory, Brush 4s worked west before any "Peaks". Diesel-electrics did work past Temple Meads much earlier though, but just to Malago Vale carriage sidings to pick-up their trains. 

Not much loco changing at Bristol nowadays...

Edited May 27, 2023 by Peter Kazmierczak

[Mark Saunders]

Driver’s traction knowledge is a factor in booked locomotive swaps. 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Can't remember if locos ran round at Nottingham, or if a different one was attached on the through St Pan - Sheff trains.

[rogerzilla]

2 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

In the 70s, South West to North services changed locos and reversed at Reading (bar a short period using the curve at Reading West). I presume this would have happened prior to then as well.

 

Usually 47s but sometimes a 33 to Reading.

Ah yes, they were doing that in the late 80s too.  I never saw if they changed the loco, or just put it on the other end.

[MidlandRed]

Another one from the ‘Olden’ days on the WR - Paddington to Birkenhead via B’ham Snow Hill - swapped locos at Chester (sometimes Shrewsbury instead - sometimes Wolverhampton Low Level). I’m thinking diesel days and especially during the short period Westerns were used, prior to the northern end from Banbury changing to the LMR. Prior to that, in steam days, locos would be changed similarly. 

 

As previously mentioned, NE to SW and vice versa trains changed from a Peak to a diesel hydraulic at Bristol TM for the trip to the south west and vice versa - it had always been this way since pre grouping so why let little inconveniences like nationalisation and dieselisation interfere!!! After all, the regions needed some work for their diesels (eg WR - 150 hydraulics; 150 Brush type 4s, and in the earlier 60s, a batch of early Peaks - although the very first seem to have been based on Barrow Road prior to Bath Rd becoming the Bristol diesel loco depot, so no doubt they were justified as part of an LMR scheme)!!

 

The Peaks certainly didn’t change locos at B’ham New St in the mid 60s, when I was spotting there. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by MidlandRed

[melmerby]

24 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

The Peaks certainly didn’t change locos at B’ham New St in the mid 60s, when I was spotting there. 

I travelled from Truro to B'ham (New St.) in spring 1962. (returning from hols for exams)

IIRC it was steam to Bristol (pretty sure). Definitely loco change to Peak at Bristol TM.

[PortlandStone]

5 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

In the 70s, South West to North services changed locos and reversed at Reading (bar a short period using the curve at Reading West). I presume this would have happened prior to then as well.

 

Prior to dieselization, these trains all used the Reading West curve. A locomotive change at Oxford was normal.

I remember a Bulleid light pacific being brought to a signal stop on the curve and having to back up to take a run at the rising gradient.

[MidlandRed]

54 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I travelled from Truro to B'ham (New St.) in spring 1962. (returning from hols for exams)

IIRC it was steam to Bristol (pretty sure). Definitely loco change to Peak at Bristol TM.

Interesting. Dieselised as part of the WR’s West of England scheme (Area No 1 and Pilot scheme type 4 Authorisation), which included all of the Warships and Bristol (Area No 2) (included all of the Westerns). I’m not sure when steam was finally replaced from W of E to Bristol but the Westerns weren’t approved for building until 1961, so probably 63/4? Prior to the change to a Peak at Bristol you’d likely have had a Jubilee or some other ex LMS type from Barrow Rd etc. 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

38 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

Interesting. Dieselised as part of the WR’s West of England scheme (Area No 1 and Pilot scheme type 4 Authorisation), which included all of the Warships and Bristol (Area No 2) (included all of the Westerns). I’m not sure when steam was finally replaced from W of E to Bristol but the Westerns weren’t approved for building until 1961, so probably 63/4? Prior to the change to a Peak at Bristol you’d likely have had a Jubilee or some other ex LMS type from Barrow Rd etc. 

 One can still see a Jubilee at Temple Meads - the view last Thursday... Took me by surprise, though.

[Artless Bodger]

5 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Ah yes, they were doing that in the late 80s too.  I never saw if they changed the loco, or just put it on the other end.

I travelled to work regularly 1985-1989 from Reading and recall watching the 47 run round a cross country service in platform 8, using the middle siding, more than once. However I did also see a 33 back onto the country end of a train in platform 9 on one evening, the shunter had to raise the buckeye on the carriage and push the buffers back, so possibly the loco was changed that time, train departed across the junction onto the B&H. (Must have been a 33/1?).

I think on occasion there was a 47 in one end spur off the middle siding but perhaps this was station pilot rather than one awaiting a loco change?

Never took any photos unfortunately - having a camera at work was a sackable offence.

[Morello Cherry]

6 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Ah yes, they were doing that in the late 80s too.  I never saw if they changed the loco, or just put it on the other end.

 

1 hour ago, Artless Bodger said:

I travelled to work regularly 1985-1989 from Reading and recall watching the 47 run round a cross country service in platform 8, using the middle siding, more than once. However I did also see a 33 back onto the country end of a train in platform 9 on one evening, the shunter had to raise the buckeye on the carriage and push the buffers back, so possibly the loco was changed that time, train departed across the junction onto the B&H. (Must have been a 33/1?).

I think on occasion there was a 47 in one end spur off the middle siding but perhaps this was station pilot rather than one awaiting a loco change?

Never took any photos unfortunately - having a camera at work was a sackable offence.

My memory of Reading is that it depended. I am fairly sure I can remember seeing some locos just run round, but I am also sure that I can remember seeing a loco sitting waiting and then backing down onto a train that had just arrived. However, this could be my memory playing tricks on me.

 

I seem to recall that there were still some loco changes at Bristol - cross country services to/from Penzance? But again, this might be my memory telling me what I think I saw rather than what I did see.

[Nearholmer]

Odd ones I recall:

 

- Euston to Pwllheli services that, iirc, were electric to Wolverhampton, a 47 to Shrewsbury, then 2x25, latterly 2x37, tacked on the other end to do the Cambrian bit.

 

- I used to travel to work on a Manchester to Brighton service which changed electric to, usually, 47 at North Pole Junction, often the diesel turning up ages late.

 

- inter-regional services to/from the SE and Central divisions often had 33 or, luxury, 2x33, haulage on the Southern, although this decreased in favour of 47 throughout as time went by. Famed ones were the SAGA holiday trains, which were up to 12 cars, but often a single 33 (timing load 8 cars), which always coped, but wasn’t exactly super fast pulling away from stops. Footex, Mystex etc could go either way, with locomotive changes or locos or DEMUs working way off region, famously to Spalding flower show by Hastings units.

 

- some Penzance-Paddington trains added coaches going towards London and dropped them going west at Plymouth, and I’m sure I’ve got photos I took in the pouring rain of that being done by loco change in each direction, presumably to speed things up. Going towards London, a loco and a few coaches lurked in a bay, the arriving train loco was detached, and the loco and coaches from the bay tacked on the front. Sleeping cars were detached and added at Plymouth too, I certainly woke up in a bay platform there more than once, but whether that was done using a shunting engine I don’t know, having been as asleep as one ever is in a sleeping car.

[newbryford]

12 hours ago, Reorte said:

At the start of this century I was travelling Manchester - Penrith and there was a loco change at Preston (last days before Voyagers appeared on that route). I didn't do the journey often enough to know if it was routine though (if it wasn't then there would've been quite a bit of diesel loco running under wires).

 

Most likely a change from diesel to electric. [*]

(I think the OP is after diesel to diesel changes)

 

London-Barrow was another electric/diesel change at Preston.

 

[*]

One regular working was a Manchester-Glasgow that combined with a Liverpool-Edinburgh at Preston and split at Carstairs.

(The Liverpool portion would be shunted from Plat 2 to Plat 3 with an 08, whilst the 47 off the Manc was being swapped for a leccy on P3)

Usual power from Manc/Lpl was a 47/4 with an 86 working through to Glasgow. A 47 (often a spare 47/7) would work the Carstairs-Edinburgh leg.

 

The southbound return would be the opposite move with traction.

Requiring smart work at Preston to get both the Manc and Lpl section on their way from P4

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by newbryford