"Living with dignity" in retirement

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

You get a similar type of responce if you ring up to say the internet cable has been damaged - perhaps someone cut it while working in the garden or something.

You get the idiots, who want you to reset the modem and check that the power point is working etc. Or they ask how do you know that it's the cable for the internet that is the broken one. Very tempting to indignantly complain that the internet hasn't work since! But of course you need to be careful, as you risk being hung up on AND they'll list you as abusive!

Their correct responce should be to agree to send someone out, on the proviso (and they can record it) that if it turns out to be a problem caused by you, there MAY be an incorrect call out fee applied.

He he! I reported a call to BT to report a line break... "We need to check the line" Ok, off you go, sez I... 

 

"It's ok, there's no fault on the line..."

 

"I've just said to you it's a line break"

 

"How do you know it's a line break?

 

"Because half the wires are trailed across the garden, and the other half are whistling in the wind, like I am..."

 

Then; oh yes, there's more...

 

Sez operator.... "If it's a line break, how come you're taking to me?

 

"Have you ever heard of a mobile phone....?  

 

 

[spikey]

4 hours ago, Talltim said:

As an example, I think the people who have to prove they are missing a limb every year probably have a cause to find it a bit degrading.

 

I seem to be in a minority of one in failing to see how anyone can find anything degrading unless they choose to see it that way.  

[sjp23480]

This is such an emotive topic and I wasn't going to chime in, but.......

 

Unfortunately, unscrupulous people try to take advantage of the system.

 

Sometimes I feel like the old fashioned value of:

"give when you can and take when you need to"

Has been replaced with:

"give when you have to and take when you can"

 

My experience of the benefits system (not old enough to be pensioned, yet) relates to my wife, who is severely sight impaired.  Her consultant insisted she claim PIP.  We completed the forms, sent them off with the additional paperwork and duly received confirmation of her entitlement.

 

We accepted the forms needed completing and we were prepared to attend a meeting to evidence her condition and secure the benefit.   As it turned out, she wasn't called in but we have repeated the form filling several times over the last five years.  Last time we were told the annual check was no longer required - but............PIP is not a means tested benefit and there is no prospect of any change in circumstances or her condition.

 

I can understand why some people find this difficult, unnecessary, inconvenient and (in some cases) distressing but in our case it felt like a small price to pay for a monthly payment that enables the recipient to have a modest but regular income.

 

Steve

Edited June 30, 2023 by sjp23480
typo

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, spikey said:

 

I seem to be in a minority of one in failing to see how anyone can find anything degrading unless they choose to see it that way.  

 

I've worked since I was 15, and right from the off, the taxman has looked for what he wants, and left me the rest. The perception is that 'they' have first dibs on 'my' money. I was unemployed for a while in the late 70's-early 80's, and going to sign on was, for some, quite traumatic. Having to justify my existence to someone who knows nothing about me, or judging me, is tantamount to an insult. I didn't want to be unemployed, but I was, and had to suffer the visit to the dole once a fortnight to 'sign on' is degrading, which, or whatever you want to call it, is exactly what it was. The turnover of office ladies at our local DSS was very high indeed. Why? Seeing the desperate faces every day, and asking the same invasive questions, removed any sheen of the job.  It's all-pervading in some parts of the country. I don't know where you are, but seeing 439 of my friends losing their jobs is a bitter situation I had to witness. I worked with some of the finest people I ever broke bread with; They were a tight-knit bunch, but even now, I wouldn't change one of them. 

 

And then, some teenage snotty will ask highly invasive questions. The applicant says he doesn't have any money, But! the person will say "It says here that you did have money, where's it gone? Little wonder the office staff had 4" glass to protect them...

 

If you re local to Tilmanstone, go and ask... 

[SM42]

I found the best way to avoid being pestered when signing on was to apply for a job at the Job Centre. 

 

They left me alone after that. 

 

On the other hand they were very good at getting me into work by helping me apply for a job they were advertising at another job centre 40 miles away. 

 

Been there nearly 30 years now. 

 

Andy

[The Johnster]

You are of course  entitled to your opinion, but I'd venture to suggest you've never attended a PIP (previously DLA) assessment or appeal with a mental health issue, allegedly recognised by the Department as a disability and entitlement to benefit, then.  'Can you prepare a meal?', well, no reason I physically can't of course, except that I can't face getting out of bed today because there's no point in anything, Black Dog Day.  'Can you go to local shops and purchase food?, yes, of course I can you idiot, I'm not a cripple, except that my agoraphobia and social anxiety disorder mean that I haven't been able to go out of my front door for the last three weeks.  'Well, you came here today, didn't you?', well, yes I did because if I didn't you were threatening to stop my money, and I needed this support worker to drive me and accompany me in order to do so, and I'm under pretty extreme duress at the moment.  'Well, you seem to be coping very well, Mr.Richards'.  What do you want me to do, have a complete meltdown in the interview room, so you can call security and have me ejected (coz I know you're not going to do what you should do and have me sectioned, actual mental health care is not available unless you are in the process of committing suicide or murder)?  Nice try, not biting. 'Can you wash your clothes in a washing machine' (these are all questions on the form and will be asked in interviews, don't worry, your tax £££ are safe from scroungers like me), yeah, but why bother, everybody hates me anyway because I'm rubbish and do not deserve to be liked, what's the point? Of anything?  Do you have any concept of what neurotic clinical depression as a result of a brain tumour actually is in practical terms for a human being suffering from it, and am I justified in assuming that you should given the job you're failing to do?

 

These are the wonderful people who will offer you a cup of water and then cancel your benefit because you walked 6 feet across the room to take it from them, therefore you have proved that you have full mobility. 

 

Dignity my *rse.

 

I once volunteered as an advice worker in a centre for people with mental issues, and as part of the training sat in as an observer on a benefit appeal.  It had a magistrate, a DHSS official, and a Trade Union officer on a panel, and the appeal was successful; the Department owed the claimant a significantly large amount of money in unpaid benefit, over £20k and this was thirty years ago.  A discussion amongst the panel took place sotto voce (but my hearing wasn't bad in those days) along the lines of 'we can't pay him this in a lump sum, he'll only spend it in the bookies (he probably did, but it was his money), can't we do it in installments'.  The Trade Union guy pointed out that it was rightfully the claimant's money, which had been denied to him by a Departmental 'mistake' (yeah, right, but let's give 'em the benefit of the doubt even though they do their best not to give us the benefit of the, um, benefit) and he was fully entitled to it, and it should therefore be paid out immedieately as further withholding of it would have been unlawful, so it was paid out in the form of a giro that had to be paid into a bank account; the claimant of course did not have a bank account and actually cashed it at a mendacious chiseller jpawnbroker's, losing about £4k in the process.  This was not an eyeopener, it was exactly what I'd expected.  The system in full action, dignity my *rse...

 

As my somewhat snobbish mum would have said, 'and they've all got cars and colour tvs, you know'.  Have they, mum, have they?

 

I do agree that we're all doomed, though.

 

 

 

 

[33C]

9 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

I've worked since I was 15, and right from the off, the taxman has looked for what he wants, and left me the rest. The perception is that 'they' have first dibs on 'my' money. I was unemployed for a while in the late 70's-early 80's, and going to sign on was, for some, quite traumatic. Having to justify my existence to someone who knows nothing about me, or judging me, is tantamount to an insult. I didn't want to be unemployed, but I was, and had to suffer the visit to the dole once a fortnight to 'sign on' is degrading, which, or whatever you want to call it, is exactly what it was. The turnover of office ladies at our local DSS was very high indeed. Why? Seeing the desperate faces every day, and asking the same invasive questions, removed any sheen of the job.  It's all-pervading in some parts of the country. I don't know where you are, but seeing 439 of my friends losing their jobs is a bitter situation I had to witness. I worked with some of the finest people I ever broke bread with; They were a tight-knit bunch, but even now, I wouldn't change one of them. 

 

And then, some teenage snotty will ask highly invasive questions. The applicant says he doesn't have any money, But! the person will say "It says here that you did have money, where's it gone? Little wonder the office staff had 4" glass to protect them...

 

If you re local to Tilmanstone, go and ask... 

Been there, done that. But the weird thing was, it did give me the incentive to get up, and while I was out and about, get stuff done. I will always be grateful to a certain lady called Louise, in the the "Job Club", (remember them!), who asked me what I really wanted to do and when told said, "then that is what you will do!". She was a dream maker for a lot of us. One bloke's dream job was to be a hospital porter but, because of no experience ya de ya de ya. She got him a position. I heard he recently retired from the same job and the send off was quite something. Both good pegs in the right holes!

[johnofwessex]

In the early 80's it was likley that I would need a job as my current one was coming to an end.

 

So I took myself off to the Job Centre.

 

I could not fault them, they were kind, interested in me and what I wanted.

 

In the end I found myself a new job but I was happy to go and say that I was now sorted.

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

 

9 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

You are of course  entitled to your opinion, but I'd venture to suggest you've never attended a PIP (previously DLA) assessment or appeal with a mental health issue, allegedly recognised by the Department as a disability and entitlement to benefit, then.  '....

 

Dignity my *rse.

 

Just filling in the form causes serious problems to people with mental health issues.   I have had to help some people complete this form, which has to be answered "I can't ..." to just about every question (often giving the same reason as the answer to the previous question) to score enough points, and truthfully declaring that on something like 28 pages is bound to exacerbate depression and can make you suicidal if you aren't already.  And then you've got to do all over again a few years later, because of course reassessment is justified in case you have recovered and thus no longer eligible.

 

And if you are mobility impaired, the advice is not to attend an assessment meeting if called to their premises, because if you manage to get there, you have just demonstrated that you are not sufficiently mobility impaired to qualify!

 

If you are turned down. you can appeal to DWP, but that rarely makes any difference other than delaying your right to go to tribunaI. I understand that well over 50% of the people refused PIP manage to get it at the tribunal, which does rather suggest both the initial assessment process and the DWP appeal system are inadequate.  PIP isn't means-tested, but many of those on it are unable to work, so get other benefits as well - and losing PIP pending appeal means they lose a significant portion of the income they are entitled to until it is sorted.

 

There's also an anomaly in that eligibility depends when you become disabled.  If you are getting PIP before you reach state pension age, you carry on getting it when you draw your pension.  However if you didn't get it when you retired but then become disabled, you're not eligible, but can claim Attendance Allowance instead.  The money's the same, but I think the criteria are different.

[TheSignalEngineer]

8 hours ago, Talltim said:

As an example, I think the people who have to prove they are missing a limb every year probably have a cause to find it a bit degrading.

One of my staff had lost a leg when hit by a train. I had to sign a statement for him each year to say that he was still missing a leg so unable to perform his previous job and was entitled to disability benefit as a result.

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

In the early 80's it was likley that I would need a job as my current one was coming to an end.

 

So I took myself off to the Job Centre.

I only ever visited the Labour Exchange / Jobcentre twice. First time was when I was at school, aged about 15 when you could get your NI number. Next time was at 56 when I had resigned from work, was about to finish and had made all of the arrangements for taking an early pension. Fortunately they hadn't got anything to match my qualifications so they took my details, said they would send me the claim forms and some details of vacancies in the area. The forms duly arrived, about 38 pages of them, and as I was only interested in getting a couple of years more 'stamps on my card' for state pesion purposes put them on one side. I went into the office to finish clearing my stuff and my boss called me to say he wanted me to review an upcoming report and would I speak to this person to arrange getting paid for it through his company. That started a series of ad hoc assignments over several years. I never did go back to the Jobcentre with the forms but most years in pension and part time work I made in excess of my 'pre-retirement' income.

[petethemole]

When the changeover from Disability Living Allowance to PIP started the procedure was that you lost your existing entitlement and had to apply for PIP from scratch.  SWMBO had Higher Rate DLA which had funded a Motability car for several years.  The car was taken away and the application process began.  As a result of the same process applying to many clainants there was a lot of online support and information available, from which it was clear that the DWP was systematically refusing or reducing the benefit in most cases.  The application form was difficult to understand for me, with a degree, let alone for SWMBO who has autism and hates forms etc.  We had excellent advice in completing it from a CAB volunteer. The assessment interview was held at a venue where the claimant had to walk some distance to the interview room. I was there taking notes.  The assessment, which awarded SWMBO only Lower Rate mobility (= not enough for a car) included several lies and exaggerated the distance SWMBO had walked in one go.  The appeal to DWP was a joke but had to be done before we could go for a tribunal.  My notes of the dodgy interview helped, and I also revisited the venue (with permission) to measure the actual distance from the waiting area to the room.  SWMBO was awarded Higher Rate Mobility and also Lower Rate Daily Care which she hadn't even applied for.  She found the whole process very stressful and degrading, and was very limited in getting about for about 6 months (I don't drive).

 

[kevinlms]

A friends wife used to volunteer at a major chain charity shop (run by a religious organisation) a couple of days a week. He had a major heart attack and was told he couldn't work again.

Part of the application for his pension, required his wife to get a letter from her supervisor, stating that she did in fact volunteer twice per week and indeed had done so, for quite a few years.

Amazingly, he refused to write/sign such a letter. Needless to say, that was her last day there!

 

They weren't far off getting their age pensions anyway, so I understand they it wasn't a huge issue.

 

That reminds me, whilst he was in intensive care at the hospital - he was there for about a month. His wife got increasingly threatening calls, because he was missing interviews about applying for jobs and was about to be cut off his dole money. The fact that he was in ICU, wasn't considered a good enough excuse for missing appointments!

[Enterprisingwestern]

5 hours ago, kevinlms said:

The fact that he was in ICU, wasn't considered a good enough excuse for missing appointments!

 

Every now and again when the system has a brainfart one hears of death not being an acceptable excuse for missing appointments, it happened to one of my customers once.

 

Mike.

[Michael Hodgson]

Death is of course a good reason for stopping one's benefits.

[kevinlms]

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Death is of course a good reason for stopping one's benefits.

Another friend of mine had his mother die and for some reason I don't know, continued to pay him her pension (he was her carer). A long time later (years), they caught up with this and of course wanted the amount repaid.

Ho offered a token amount each month, for which they declined. So he was most unhappy that he had to make higher repayments.

Should not have been any surprise, that he was not entitled to her pension!

[pH]

11 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Another friend of mine had his mother die and for some reason I don't know, continued to pay him her pension (he was her carer).

My wife and I each get a UK government pension, paid into a Canadian bank account. Every so often we are each sent a form to be completed by an ‘official’ person to confirm that we are still alive and therefore continue to be entitled to these pensions.

[Michael Hodgson]

24 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Another friend of mine had his mother die and for some reason I don't know, continued to pay him her pension (he was her carer). A long time later (years), they caught up with this and of course wanted the amount repaid.

 

The system only knows a pensioner is deceased if somebody bothers to tell them.

I think there was less of that type of fraud when there used to be a queue of OAPs in the Post Office on Pension Day. 

Post Office staff got to know the old dears and were more likely to ask questions when they didn't turn up or somebody else did.

[Mike Bellamy]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The system only knows a pensioner is deceased if somebody bothers to tell them.

 

That is true for private / occupational pensions but not for any state benefits - to enable a funeral to take place you need a death certificate - to get that you need to register the death - that then automatically advises the various government departments dealing with pensions, benefits, tax etc. Depending on the date of death and the benefit dates, you then get either a letter sending a payment to bring the benefit up to date or asking for an overpayment to be returned if the benefit was paid in advance. Having been an executor for five family members, that's what's happened on each occasion - and they are fairly efficient with those letters sent out within a month or so - even HMRC waiving a small amount of tax dad was due to pay as it was an insignificant amount.

.

[Bernard Lamb]

27 minutes ago, pH said:

My wife and I each get a UK government pension, paid into a Canadian bank account. Every so often we are each sent a form to be completed by an ‘official’ person to confirm that we are still alive and therefore continue to be entitled to these pensions.

That seems to be  faily common.

SWMBO has to write to the German pension people annually with a declaration from her GP saying that she is still alive.

Bernard 

[Free At Last]

Dead man brought to post office to collect pension.

[dave55uk]

17 hours ago, kevinlms said:

You get a similar type of response if you ring up to say the internet cable has been damaged - perhaps someone cut it while working in the garden or something.

 

Now there's the thing. Where I live I have no mobile signal (it's a dead spot in the city).

I have the internet and home phone line from the same provider.

So when the cable gets cut (and it has been - twice), I lose the internet AND phone, so I have to go and find a neighbour on the same network

and ask if I can borrow their phone to ring the fault centre.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 minute ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

- even HMRC waiving a small amount of tax dad was due to pay as it was an insignificant amount.

.

There is a big difference in attitude betwern the tax office and the benefits people.  The latter seem to be driven by a top-down attitude led by politicans that claimants are all workshy, trying to defraud the system so all claims should be refused if at all possible.  I worked for the Inland Revenue (as it was then called) over half a century ago as student summer job, where tax returns were assumed to be honest and any errors made in good faith unless there were obvious grounds for suspecting otherwise.  The aim was not to screw every last penny out of everybody but to raise the money needed to fund government spending without wasting time on trivial amounts - one tried to collect the right amount of tax and any overpayments would be returned as readily as chasing underpayments.  The people with the money are of course the rich, so that's where most effort was made - there were some extremely gifted people investigating the schemes used for legal avoidance of tax, and the one of the organisation's biggest problems is that these people could leave and get a better-paid job advising clients how to save money.  Some however gave advice to minsiters on how to stop up the loopholes, which is one of the reasons why the system keeps changing.

[melmoth]

50 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The system only knows a pensioner is deceased if somebody bothers to tell them.

I think there was less of that type of fraud when there used to be a queue of OAPs in the Post Office on Pension Day. 

Post Office staff got to know the old dears and were more likely to ask questions when they didn't turn up or somebody else did.

 

On the other hand, I lived in a rural village at one stage of my childhood where there were two unmarried brothers who lived with their elderly mother. They were probably in their fifties, (which was incredibly ancient to me then) and were in the habit of collecting her pension for her. However, nobody had apparently seen the mother for several years and nobody, it seems, wanted to ask...

 

This was in the mid 70s

 

 

[kevinlms]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

  The people with the money are of course the rich, so that's where most effort was made - there were some extremely gifted people investigating the schemes used for legal avoidance of tax, and the one of the organisation's biggest problems is that these people could leave and get a better-paid job advising clients how to save money.  Some however gave advice to minsiters on how to stop up the loopholes, which is one of the reasons why the system keeps changing.

PwC in Australia have been caught out. They have been major contractors for the Australian Tax Office, but at the same same time advising corporate businesses of how to avoid paying tax, using the very information that they wrote for the ATO!

Nothing like a good conflict of interest and they are having to sell one arm of their business for $1, such has been the trashing of their reputation.