Mass cull of ticket offices

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, 31A said:

 

 

In fact, in terms of being able to buy a ticket from a human, this could be an improvement on the present situation as the ticket offices at their smaller stations are now only open in the mornings, and after that although the stations are still staffed for Train Despatch and Passenger Assistance purposes, the 'platform staff' don't (as far as I know) at the moment have any way of selling you a ticket.

 

 

platform / dispatch staff cannot attend to trains AND sell tickets at the same time!

 

How would you like to hear your train was delayed because the platform dispatcher couldn’t undertake dispatch duties (making sure. nobody is trapped in the doors ready for the driver to close them and then give the driver the right away.

[31A]

14 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

platform / dispatch staff cannot attend to trains AND sell tickets at the same time!

 

How would you like to hear your train was delayed because the platform dispatcher couldn’t undertake dispatch duties (making sure. nobody is trapped in the doors ready for the driver to close them and then give the driver the right away.

Thank you Phil, I do appreciate that, having been both a Booking Clerk and a Guard at different times during my railway career.  But those staff are there all the time, not just when trains are calling!

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

I am totally opposed to this proposal and Mark Hopwood and I have had some pretty heated "discussions" over it.  It might be DafT driven, but if Mark is anything to go by, the TOCs are enthusiastically embracing it.  Mark seems to think we should conduct all our business in every field on our smartphones and those that don't are crusty old dinosaurs.

 

In addition to the usual debate about how passengers get tickets in future, I question where the actual savings will be made.  In the case of my local station, Bourne End, the proposal is to close the ticket office but still retain the staff to work on the platform to assist passengers.  But, that staff member will still need a place to take personal breaks which will, presumably, be in the existing office.  It will still need lighting and heating so little cost saving will be made just a loss in revenue.  This will be made worse because many who currently buy their tickets from the affable Tony will find it difficult to use the TVM and take a risk and travel without a ticket especially as on-train ticket sales/inspection seems to be a rare event these days.

 

Tony tells me that on average he assists around half a dozen passengers who have attempted to make on line bookings and have either been unsuccessful or something has gone wrong which would have resulted in them being penalised if they'd travelled.  

 

The TOCs claim that putting staff onto the platform will allow them to give a better service but at Bourne End for example, Tony is always willing to come outside and assist if required, particularly for a disabled passenger.

 

I also wonder how long Tony and others like him will continue in this new role before getting fed up and resigning.  At that point I can't see them being replaced and the stations will become unstaffed.

 

And this doesn't affect just small stations; I see that even the ticket office at Reading is to close - one of the largest and busiest stations in the country!

And if (a very big IF) GWr 'redeploys booking offiv ce staff onto teh platforms will they be any better informed in their knowl;edge of teh railway and routes, and how to get round route closures and so on than some of the useless specimens already gracing GWR station platforms at places like Reading.  OK when you're in Cornwall and the staff are enthusiastice and know what they're doing but at Reading the first task is finding one who speaks a decent standard of English because while I have a few words of Polish (some are very rude) my knowledge of other Eastern European languages is non-existent.

 

will we again finish up with teh situation when amajor signal failure between Didcot and Swindon left me - waiting for atrain (it was canceklled in teh end) having to do more to help passengers with diversionary information than the people paid to do it.  None of them could give passengers any information about how to get to Swindon - one of the simplest things imaginable in such a situation.  And as for Gloucester - forget it, along with Exeter and all points west (there was a blockade on the B&H so that route was out.  The staff need an awful lot of 'railway knowledge' training if they are to be of any use in passenger facing situations.

 

And both worryingly and amusingly passengers wh know w how to use the 'net, or can read GWR's very useful Staff Information Screens, tend to havea far better know;edge of what is ahapening than the people who are paid to do the job.  Incdentally I'm not saying BR was any better beacuse very often it wasn't and reading platform staff were always brilliant at vanishing when things got awkward but I'm more interested in now than then, and in the future.

[Mike_Walker]

1 hour ago, wombatofludham said:

I get somewhat annoyed when I hear the usual "older people will be disadvantaged because they are less likely to be able to access or use tech" trope trotted out.  My aunt, born 1944, is a net junkie and has no problem booking complex continental tours or ordering on line.  I'm an oldie at 60 but given my first computer was a Sinclair ZX Spectrum, I think I understand tech.  By the same token I have two friends just turning 50 who do not have a smart phone and never want one.  So let's cut the ageist nonsense and say there are digitally disadvantaged people for whom a person is an essential means of explaining what they want, at all ages, including youngsters who have may have some form of a learning disability which complicates their ability to use machines or make them unsure when using on line ticketing, poorer people of all ages who may not have the latest tech, people whose first language is neither English or Welsh, or people whose eyesight struggles with machine screens.  Age isn't the issue, competence and physical or mental ability can affect any age.

Midland Metro began with ticket machines and we were assured by the franchisee that the ticket machines they supplied would work and be robust.  They didn't last long and were replaced with conductors.

Doing away with ticket offices is wrong.  What the wonks of Marsham Street don't realise is that train travel, for many, is less familiar than taking a plane.  They may be fine with on line booking, but when presented with multiple ticket prices, the need to change trains and all that UK train travel imposes on someone more used to driving or going to an airport to get to another, or if they need to change planes, it being all handled for you relatively seamlessly, they just go "**** that, I'll drive", especially as motorists only take into account the direct cost of fuel for a journey, at which point the machine generated fare will for the most part seem a lot more than a couple of tanks of petrol or diesel.  Many moons back, I was contacted by a friend to work out a journey from Stafford to York, and gave him two choices, one with a single change in Birmingham, and one via Stockport and Stalybridge (we are talking the days of BR when there was a regular service) and pointed out that it would probably be cheaper via Stockport, but to ask at the booking office.  However, what I didn't factor into the plan was neither of the friends had ever - ever - used a train previously, despite being into their 20s.  So, being more used to single leg pricing on buses, they thought they had to buy a single ticket for each leg of the journey, so very nearly missed the 5 minute cross platform connection at Stockport.  This is the level of inexperience with train travel amongst the leisure and pleasure market.  If it's complicated, they will drive.  No computer based system will ever be able to think out of the box to save someone a few pounds, as the booking clerk at Newhaven did for me a few years back, or ask questions to find out exactly how Mr or Mrs Numpty intend to travel rather than what the computer thinks they have asked for.

I know this sounds as patronising as the age issue, but many people really don't understand railways, and why should they, many people don't use them, but might want to try it to allow them to booze and cruise for an evening out.  If the ticket purchase was complicated, to the point the highlighted "best price" came with so many restrictions it wasn't valid on the train they want so get fined for the wrong ticket, then the station is unstaffed and a hang out for local gangs who are doing anti social things on the platform, their inexperience is going to cost them and guarantee a boom trade for local taxis next time they want to booze and cruise.

The system should be designed around the needs of the most vulnerable, train illiterate potential traveller, to comply fully with the requirements for service providers laid out in the Equality Act, and made as simple to use as the local bus or the car.  Relying on ticket machines designed to be as complicated as a programming flow chart because that's how the designers think, or apps which show too many options and never seem to be in synch with each other price wise whilst de-staffing stations is not making the system simple and effective.

Brilliant!  I suggest you use that as a submission to the consultation and send it to your MP.  Sadly the whole thing is a box-ticking exercise and it will go ahead no matter how big the public outcry is.  

 

So much for democracy.

[melmerby]

29 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

How would you like to hear your train was delayed because the platform dispatcher couldn’t undertake dispatch duties (making sure. nobody is trapped in the doors ready for the driver to close them and then give the driver the right away.

So how does this happen on the countless unstaffed stations, many which have decent numbers of passengers?

[SZ]

It's not that the machines are even up to the task. How would you get a refund on a ticket loaded on a smartcard if you find the service is not running. I had enough problems with this when there is a ticket office (do you have a receipt? no) so what happens when there isn't?

[Mike_Walker]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

And if (a very big IF) GWr 'redeploys booking offiv ce staff onto teh platforms will they be any better informed in their knowl;edge of teh railway and routes, and how to get round route closures and so on than some of the useless specimens already gracing GWR station platforms at places like Reading.  OK when you're in Cornwall and the staff are enthusiastice and know what they're doing but at Reading the first task is finding one who speaks a decent standard of English because while I have a few words of Polish (some are very rude) my knowledge of other Eastern European languages is non-existent.

 

will we again finish up with teh situation when amajor signal failure between Didcot and Swindon left me - waiting for atrain (it was canceklled in teh end) having to do more to help passengers with diversionary information than the people paid to do it.  None of them could give passengers any information about how to get to Swindon - one of the simplest things imaginable in such a situation.  And as for Gloucester - forget it, along with Exeter and all points west (there was a blockade on the B&H so that route was out.  The staff need an awful lot of 'railway knowledge' training if they are to be of any use in passenger facing situations.

 

And both worryingly and amusingly passengers wh know w how to use the 'net, or can read GWR's very useful Staff Information Screens, tend to havea far better know;edge of what is ahapening than the people who are paid to do the job.  Incdentally I'm not saying BR was any better beacuse very often it wasn't and reading platform staff were always brilliant at vanishing when things got awkward but I'm more interested in now than then, and in the future.

Mike, I think you are being a little unfair.  Most GWR station staff I've encountered are helpful but at times they have as much difficulty in finding out what's going on as the rest of us.  The problem usually lies with NR who are reluctant to share information.

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, Mike_Walker said:

Brilliant!  I suggest you use that as a submission to the consultation and send it to your MP.  Sadly the whole thing is a box-ticking exercise and it will go ahead no matter how big the public outcry is.  

 

So much for democracy.

I would suggest this is the "worst case scenario" designed to cause a huge outcry from the public & the unions.

It will then be rolled back a bit "following government talks" with the TOCs, so that only 50% is implemented.

The government will then say it was acting on the public's behalf.

The desired 50% of cuts will then go ahead and the government claims victory on behalf of the passengers.

 

Cynical Moi?😃

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

He sounds like an arrogant git.

Quite the opposite actually .  Excellent in dealing with rail user groups and trying to get teh things they ask for.

 

But i don't agree with him regarding the closure of the railway's shop windows aka booking offices.

[phil-b259]

32 minutes ago, melmerby said:

So how does this happen on the countless unstaffed stations, many which have decent numbers of passengers?

It doesn’t -  Because it has been decided that platform dispatchers are not needed and the driver (and guard where they still exist) can do it themselves.

 

The main reasons for having platform dispatchers are either the station layout  - eg sharp curves where CCTV and / or personal observation by one person is insufficient to ensure the train is safe to depart (nobody leaning on it, no clothing  trapped in the doors etc. OR because the sheer number of people makes it too dangerous to rely only on crew dispatch.

This is why my local station doesn’t have dispatch staff but the likes of Three Bridges and East Croydon do.

 

So to repeat, where it has been decided that train dispatch staff are necessarily they will NOT be selling tickets - and if you close the ticket office and don’t redeploy those staff to the platforms then there won’t be anyone to sell you a ticket.

 

However given the DfTs past record you will excuse me for being cynical and assuming that instead the Ticket office staff will be let go (thus lowering the wage bill - and THAT is the REAL motivation for all this!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by phil-b259

[The Stationmaster]

17 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Brilliant!  I suggest you use that as a submission to the consultation and send it to your MP.  Sadly the whole thing is a box-ticking exercise and it will go ahead no matter how big the public outcry is.  

 

So much for democracy.

If you knew our MP you wouldn't even bother to cross the road to call him names - he's totally devoid of any interest in anything except himself and a proven liar to boot.  However he wears a blue rosette and even a goat wearing a blue  rosette could get elected in this constituency, and would probably do a better job for the constituents than our present clown.  

 

Fortunately he has said  that he intenfds to retire at the next elevction - making official what he's been doing for his consituents since the day he was elected.  and it's been announced that we won't be getting Boris back which is a pity as he really did achieve things for theh constituency whaever else he might have dne since he left.  And the other parties persist in putting up halfwits or total idiots in an attempt to capture the seat so we basically don't get any choice.

[The Stationmaster]

30 minutes ago, melmerby said:

So how does this happen on the countless unstaffed stations, many which have decent numbers of passengers?

It makes no difference at all.  If a station is un staffed now it will remain unstaffed.  Already in thsi area GWR have closed the bookomng offices - which were only part time anyway - at stations which were otherwise unstaffed.  And now the stations are completely unstaffed.

 

I doubt we will ever see much anywhere of redundant booking office staff being redeployed to roles out on the platform.  After all that is in 'old speak' an immediate demarcation situation if you are going to put someone in a clerical post out on the platform.

 

In some cases the smaller booking offices long ago ceased to be clerical posts and became staffed by uniformed grades but even where that had happened on GWR those whose jobs were cut out have not reappeared out on the platform.

[SHMD]

I am bl00dy livid at this!

 

Baskets!!

 

 

Kev.

(Sorry for not actually contributing anything actually useful to this thread.)

 

[Ian Hargrave]

2 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

I get somewhat annoyed when I hear the usual "older people will be disadvantaged because they are less likely to be able to access or use tech" trope trotted out.  My aunt, born 1944, is a net junkie and has no problem booking complex continental tours or ordering on line.  I'm an oldie at 60 but given my first computer was a Sinclair ZX Spectrum, I think I understand tech.  By the same token I have two friends just turning 50 who do not have a smart phone and never want one.  So let's cut the ageist nonsense and say there are digitally disadvantaged people for whom a person is an essential means of explaining what they want, at all ages, including youngsters who have may have some form of a learning disability which complicates their ability to use machines or make them unsure when using on line ticketing, poorer people of all ages who may not have the latest tech, people whose first language is neither English or Welsh, or people whose eyesight struggles with machine screens.  Age isn't the issue, competence and physical or mental ability can affect any age.

Midland Metro began with ticket machines and we were assured by the franchisee that the ticket machines they supplied would work and be robust.  They didn't last long and were replaced with conductors.

Doing away with ticket offices is wrong.  What the wonks of Marsham Street don't realise is that train travel, for many, is less familiar than taking a plane.  They may be fine with on line booking, but when presented with multiple ticket prices, the need to change trains and all that UK train travel imposes on someone more used to driving or going to an airport to get to another, or if they need to change planes, it being all handled for you relatively seamlessly, they just go "**** that, I'll drive", especially as motorists only take into account the direct cost of fuel for a journey, at which point the machine generated fare will for the most part seem a lot more than a couple of tanks of petrol or diesel.  Many moons back, I was contacted by a friend to work out a journey from Stafford to York, and gave him two choices, one with a single change in Birmingham, and one via Stockport and Stalybridge (we are talking the days of BR when there was a regular service) and pointed out that it would probably be cheaper via Stockport, but to ask at the booking office.  However, what I didn't factor into the plan was neither of the friends had ever - ever - used a train previously, despite being into their 20s.  So, being more used to single leg pricing on buses, they thought they had to buy a single ticket for each leg of the journey, so very nearly missed the 5 minute cross platform connection at Stockport.  This is the level of inexperience with train travel amongst the leisure and pleasure market.  If it's complicated, they will drive.  No computer based system will ever be able to think out of the box to save someone a few pounds, as the booking clerk at Newhaven did for me a few years back, or ask questions to find out exactly how Mr or Mrs Numpty intend to travel rather than what the computer thinks they have asked for.

I know this sounds as patronising as the age issue, but many people really don't understand railways, and why should they, many people don't use them, but might want to try it to allow them to booze and cruise for an evening out.  If the ticket purchase was complicated, to the point the highlighted "best price" came with so many restrictions it wasn't valid on the train they want so get fined for the wrong ticket, then the station is unstaffed and a hang out for local gangs who are doing anti social things on the platform, their inexperience is going to cost them and guarantee a boom trade for local taxis next time they want to booze and cruise.

The system should be designed around the needs of the most vulnerable, train illiterate potential traveller, to comply fully with the requirements for service providers laid out in the Equality Act, and made as simple to use as the local bus or the car.  Relying on ticket machines designed to be as complicated as a programming flow chart because that's how the designers think, or apps which show too many options and never seem to be in synch with each other price wise whilst de-staffing stations is not making the system simple and effective.

Well said. And explains the reasons why tomorrow I’ll be driving from  Middle England to the South Coast,returning Saturday..well partially explains anyway as my luggage is a separate issue…but an issue that is crucial for all generations. Is there a fix for this nonsense ?

[HSB]

Basically will stop many elderly people who can't cope with ticket machines or smart phones, many disabled people and those with learning difficulties from using trains!

[Reorte]

3 minutes ago, HSB said:

Basically will stop many elderly people who can't cope with ticket machines or smart phones, many disabled people and those with learning difficulties from using trains!

And a few curmodgeonly not particularly old so-and-sos like myself who could use a smart phone but who has no interest at all in lugging an expensive piece of electronics around with himself all the time, and finds the ticket machines a PITA and prefers using cash for small amounts (local journeys anyway, I've surrendered to the inevitable and bought advance tickets online some time ago, not that I'm all that happy about that either).

[Wheatley]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

platform / dispatch staff cannot attend to trains AND sell tickets at the same time!

At Skipton, Keighley, Shipley, Wilmslow and others the booking office staff leave the office to dispatch LNER and Avanti services, then return to selling tickets. On shorter trains the conductors self-dispatch. 

[SHMD]

I (eventually) found the TPE corporate BS spin on this.

It looks like a copy and paste job.

(I've corrected the headline banner for them!)

 

 

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/ticket-offices-update

 

((Note the continuing discontent...))

 

Looks like I will be voting with my feet car in future...

 

 

Kev.

 

 

 

[33C]

 "Staff will move to a multi-skilled role". With a corresponding increase in work so an enhanced rate of pay to match, not. "Customers will know when staff are scheduled to be at the stations". So not all the time then, and how will they know? Answer me this. Would you be happy to allow your 16 year old (grand)daughter to travel alone on a train after 8pm from your local station today and in a year hence? If not, why not......

[Bon Accord]

54 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

At Skipton, Keighley, Shipley, Wilmslow and others the booking office staff leave the office to dispatch LNER and Avanti services, then return to selling tickets. On shorter trains the conductors self-dispatch. 

 

Same system applies with the despatch of LNER services at ScotRail stations north of Edinburgh (i.e. to Aberdeen and Inverness); it's all booking office staff with the exception of the larger stations like Aberdeen.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, SHMD said:

I (eventually) found the TPE corporate BS spin on this.

It looks like a copy and paste job.

(I've corrected the headline banner for them!)

 

 

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/ticket-offices-update

 

((Note the continuing discontent...))

 

Looks like I will be voting with my feet car in future...

 

 

Kev.

 

 

 

Always nice to have my opinion of the word "modernising" reinforced.

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, 33C said:

Customers will know when staff are scheduled to be at the stations

 

WTF? How the f**k would the customers ever know?

 

I've not seen any staff ever at my local stations in the last ten years at least.  In all that time, we have to buy the tickets in advance (online). If we are lucky, the one and only machine on the station platform is still working. That spits out the tickets if your confirmation code still works. If we are extra lucky, we are not next in line behind some poor unfortunates trying to buy a ticket for the first time, totally confused by the user-hostile technology, on screens that are unreadable with the early morning sun shining on them.

 

I have to confess - I have been reduced to "road rage" and shouting abuse at a poor unfortunate couple who took ten minutes to get their pre-booked tickets out of the bloody machine, while the queue behind them got longer and longer, and we could hear the train approaching. I did meet them later and apologised for my language.

 

The station booking office is long gone - just like the local post offices - more "customer service" by lack of service.  Hang on!  I just remembered, I have seen "staff" in the station car park. They were the ones sticking parking fines on the cars. Parked while the ticket machines were broken and nobody could buy a ticket.

 

I despair - it all seems like a scheme to deter people from using trains unless they are desperate.

[Wheatley]

9 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

WTF? How the f**k would the customers ever know? 

 

For the TPE stations the (proposed) staffing times are all listed in the linked consultation document. 

 

Everywhere else I expect they'll find out exactly the same way they currently find out the ticket office opening times - they'll be on the website or posted at the station. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Wheatley

[33C]

Ha! Yes, the queue's at the ticket machines! Long! You should see them on a Monday morning trying to renew season tickets......I have not seen the like in my entire career. These "customers" were a long, long, long way from happy. Yet the booking office with it's three, manned windows...Shut. The staff knew them by name and what they wanted before they said good morning, and a very short queue that moved quickly. Customer focused my ar$e.

[33C]

Just now, Wheatley said:

 

For the TPE stations the (proposed) staffing times are all listed in the linked consultation document. 

 

Everywhere else I expect they'll find out exactly the same way they currently find out the ticket office opening times - they'll be on the website or posted at the station. 

Posted, yes, maybe, IF they can cover three shifts with rest day/overtime working.