Mass cull of ticket offices

[Forward!]

One problem I've found with 'roving' staff, particularly at large stations, is that they tend to attract a scrum of people seeking assistance. Especially so if something goes wrong with the services. That often means the most assertive get their problems solved first. The queuing system is abandoned, and that, frankly, signals the imminent collapse of society.

 

Will

[andyman7]

16 hours ago, MrTea said:

The way this has been announced is nuts. It’s so obviously come straight from the government. I don’t understand why the train companies are going to the trouble of tailoring it in their own ways when they could have just cut & pasted the directive. 
 

Am I right in thinking that the TOCs essentially get to choose the paint on the trains and that’s about it?

It's because the legal structure of the passenger Train Operators is still set up to assume they are privatised entities with scope for self-determination. This means the DfT cannot just dictate the change - it has to go through a merry dance so that the Train Operators are 'encouraged' to propose closures that the DfT can review and consent to. as laid down in the industry legal processes.
Although many have said that the consultation is a tick-box exercise I have no doubt that when it goes to DfT for the Secretary of State to consider, some will be refused or be required to be modified so that they can 'demonstrate' that the process was fair and transparent.

 

[rodent279]

Been watching a few films about Indian Railways recently,  Great Railway Journeys & the like.

One, I can't remember which, follows a ticket clerk in his job advising travellers & selling tickets. It seems that despite the huge size of the Indian railway network,  they can do this better than us.

 

Maybe we should just admit defeat, call India in to run the country, in a sort of reverse Raj?

[Ben B]

"Oh my GOD. We tried making train tickets so expensive you needed to sell a Kidney to travel in the peak! We tried specifying trains that recycle toilet smells into passenger areas, trains that have seats that ruin your backs, trains that randomly catch fire... what else can we try?! I know, we'll close all the damned ticket offices, have machines that don't work, and an insane variable on prices and routes.  Then we'll fine the stupid sods for travelling without the right tickets.

   "After that, if people will INSIST on trying to use trains, we'll just have to keep the doors locked or ignore station stops altogether, there's no other way to eliminate that unpredictable variable, the Dreaded Passenger, from the rail system. Honestly, why do the peasantry want so desperately to move about?! Oh for the days everyone just stayed in their village, at least that way you knew where to find them when you needed some manual labour doing on your estate, or needed some chaps to stand in front of Napoleons cannons... bloody trains.

   "Tidy that up and send it to the Train Operating Companies to put out as a press release, there's a good chap" :)

 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Ben B

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Or didn't go at all in the case of, particularly, older people.  On more than a few occasions I saw such folk making enquiries at our local booking office about how to get to wherever and then buying the necessary tickets.  Travel Centres were of course intended for exactly that purpose  - to encourage use of the railway rather than simply being there to sell tickets.  cClosing them strikes me as a very daft idea, even worse than closing booking offices.

 

Contactless presents a number of problems which seem to be ignored by its proponents (Grant Shapps having been one of them)

 

First it requires you to actually have something which you can tap  in/out with - most children don't have such things so presumably they would travel for nothing and climb over barriers for a bit of fun.

 

Secondly it requires the right machine at every station and you need to remember to use it after you have found it.

Third when associated with barriers it requires the barriers to be operational and that means they have to be manned in case of any difficulties (including children I presume).  Last time I travelled to Paddington the barriers were unstaffed and wide open, and the same when I went home - more feee travel if you're heading back to an open station (which most are).

 

Finally if you're travelling in to London and couldn't buy a Travelcard at the station where you started your journey it will cost you more as you tap out of NR then tap in top TfL. (which is of course exactly what the current Mayor of London wants hence his proposal to scrap Travelcards).

 

And I wonder what will happen. to Excess Fare offices such as the forever busy one at Reading where folk who entrained at an open station and have no ticket have to n buy one to get out through the barriers?

 

As it happens I was one of the Oyster Card 'guinea pigs' who was tapping in and out on the Underground months before anyone could actually buy an Oyster Card so I don't object tio that part of the process (and it doesn't cost me anything which might be siad to help its acceptability to me.  Similarly I can type in or out on barriers at an increasing number of NR stations which is a distinct improvement of different operators not allowing certain things issued by other operators to activate their barriers.  

 

Because of what I use on NR I don't need to tap in or out except to open barriers so at most stations I obviously don't bother.  But tapping in/out at stations with barriers is far more convenient than any other way of getting onto or off at a closed station.  except when people in the queue in front of you don't know  how their ticket operates the barriers so they shout to staff for assistance - and there's a surprising amount of that from what I've seen 

 

Tap and go. It’s brilliant from what I’ve experienced on TFL. But to equip the rest of the rail network with similar ,given the complexities of the fare structure and the virtual reeducation of the UK travelling public is a daunting task.I’m remembering Mr.&Mrs Clueless Cardless at a ticket machine not so long ago near me.TOC&DfT are prepared to dispense with them. And so we move onwards.

[Mallard60022]

6 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Tap and go. It’s brilliant from what I’ve experienced on TFL. But to equip the rest of the rail network with similar ,given the complexities of the fare structure and the virtual reeducation of the UK travelling public is a daunting task.I’m remembering Mr.&Mrs Clueless Cardless at a ticket machine not so long ago near me.TOC&DfT are prepared to dispense with them. And so we move onwards.

Yup.

P

[Steven B]

33 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Tap and go. It’s brilliant from what I’ve experienced on TFL. But to equip the rest of the rail network with similar ,given the complexities of the fare structure and the virtual reeducation of the UK travelling public is a daunting task.

 

For Mr and Mrs Average tapping in and out makes life much easier - all they need to know is the route they're taking and hence where to change trains. Great for spur of the moment travel, not so great for seat reservations.

 

Adding it to the whole national railway network isn't that complicated - if First bus can make it work on a bus with no fixed infrastructure, then adding it to a railway station at pre-set (fixed!) locations is actually relatively straight forward.

 

 

I'm still to be convinced that closing ticket offices will increase crime. CCTV cameras can still be monitored and few suburban ticket offices are currently open much beyond 7 or 8pm - plenty of time to mug the unsuspecting. Whilst there are no doubt some problem areas, are unstaffed suburban stations really a hot spot for muggings? Or in reality are people no more a risk than they would be on a canal tow path or city centre side road?

 

Months go by on most stations without any crimes being reported. Looking at West Yorkshire as an example (both West Yorkshire Police and British Transport Police) you're much more likely to be the victim of crime at Leeds station than any of the surrounding suburban stations (on a crimes per 100000 passenger basis). That's despite Leeds ticket office being open 19 hours a day and having the local British Transport Police offices on site.

 

Muggers will stick to the larger stations - the ones where there are more targets and it's easier to dissapear into the crowds. Probably exactly the same ones that will retain their ticket offices.

 

All that said, making accessing facilities harder for a decent proportion of the population (be it ticket offices, self-service checkouts or App-only car parking) is wrong. If a minority group was excluded from an activity there would be an uproar, yet excluding the 10% of the population who have got/don't want/can't use a smart phone or automatic ticket machine is allowed. 

 

Steven B

 

[Forward!]

 

14 minutes ago, Steven B said:

Whilst there are no doubt some problem areas, are unstaffed suburban stations really a hot spot for muggings? Or in reality are people no more a risk than they would be on a canal tow path or city centre side road?

 

I suspect it's more a question perceptions. If you feel unsafe in unenclosed spaces you can simply move to somewhere else or indeed avoid them entirely. When you are within a station complex or on a train and perceive a threat or are confronted by anti-social behaviour you cannot really avoid it so easily.

[admiles]

On 06/07/2023 at 13:23, Robin Brasher said:

10% of the population is a lot of people.  Even if you can use the internet you cannot always get a ticket.  I tried to get a return from Wareham to East Cowes on the National Rail site and the response was 'Bad Request' yet I had no problem getting the ticket from the ticket office.

 In fairness I suspect you could have also got that ticket from a ticket machine.

[APOLLO]

 

Brit15

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, Steven B said:

 

For Mr and Mrs Average tapping in and out makes life much easier - all they need to know is the route they're taking and hence where to change trains. Great for spur of the moment travel, not so great for seat reservations.

 

 

Except tap and go fares are generally the most expensive ones!

 

Yes in some cases you don't have a choice because the operator has a simple time driven fare structure but its a fact that you can get cheaper paper ticket at certain times of the day between Gatwick airport (or stations inwards thereof) and London for example than you can with tapping in precisely because the such a system has no user input.

 

A 'tap and go' system cannot determine whether it is an Off peak, a supper off peak ticket, whether you have a discount card like the Network card, whether you want to take advantage of a 'Thameslink only' 'London Midland Only' fare etc - so it will simply charge you the standard off peak rate.

 

 

Note the Gatwick Express fares are triggered by the use of specific ticket gates at London Victoria - if a Southern service is diverted into or departs from theses platforms it is necessary for passengers to be diverted round to a different set of ticket gates so the correct contactless fare is charged.

[david.hill64]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

A 'tap and go' system cannot determine whether it is an Off peak, a supper off peak ticket, whether you have a discount card like the Network card, whether you want to take advantage of a 'Thameslink only' 'London Midland Only' fare etc - so it will simply charge you the standard off peak rate.

According to the reports I have read so far, the system will know what discount cards you have and will charge the cheapest fare for the journey at the time of day that you make it. If this is indeed the case, then the objective of moving to a simplified national fares structure will have been met.

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Except tap and go fares are generally the most expensive ones!

 

Yes in some cases you don't have a choice because the operator has a simple time driven fare structure but its a fact that you can get cheaper paper ticket at certain times of the day between Gatwick airport (or stations inwards thereof) and London for example than you can with tapping in precisely because the such a system has no user input.

 

A 'tap and go' system cannot determine whether it is an Off peak, a supper off peak ticket, whether you have a discount card like the Network card, whether you want to take advantage of a 'Thameslink only' 'London Midland Only' fare etc - so it will simply charge you the standard off peak rate.

 

 

Note the Gatwick Express fares are triggered by the use of specific ticket gates at London Victoria - if a Southern service is diverted into or departs from theses platforms it is necessary for passengers to be diverted round to a different set of ticket gates so the correct contactless fare is charged.

It's only between Gatwick and London that this is a problem (and that fare structure is a mess anyway).

 

Elsewhere when traveling around London tap-and-go is the cheapest, and you put your Railcard on your Oyster card so you get the discount automatically. It is a very effective system. The plans to put similar schemes in elsewhere and extend the London area scheme also involve simplifying the fares - including hopefully the fares to Gatwick, long overdue.  

[phil-b259]

16 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

According to the reports I have read so far, the system will know what discount cards you have and will charge the cheapest fare for the journey at the time of day that you make it. If this is indeed the case, then the objective of moving to a simplified national fares structure will have been met.

 

It only 'knows' if you use a bespoke smart card which has such a facility on it. Moreover how is it going to know which train you will take where the gateline is common yet you have a choice of more expensive Avanti and lower priced WM trains to chose from when you get to the platforms.

 

Thats why Gatwick express has to have dedicated platforms and its own gateline at Victoria.

 

Also if you use a bank card to tap in as you can on TfL or many buss services there is no way of loading it with any discount cards

 

 

[david.hill64]

2 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

It only 'knows' if you use a bespoke smart card which has such a facility on it. Moreover how is it going to know which train you will take where the gateline is common yet you have a choice of more expensive Avanti and lower priced WM trains to chose from when you get to the platforms.

 

We need to wait to see which technology is required, but I think that it's likely to be a smartphone app. Which of course will not help the minority who don't own such a device so will have to be more than one.

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, andyman7 said:

It's only between Gatwick and London that this is a problem (and that fare structure is a mess anyway).

 

Elsewhere when traveling around London tap-and-go is the cheapest, and you put your Railcard on your Oyster card so you get the discount automatically. It is a very effective system. The plans to put similar schemes in elsewhere and extend the London area scheme also involve simplifying the fares - including hopefully the fares to Gatwick, long overdue.  

 

Not so! I believe similar anomalies occur between Reading and London, Luton and London, etc due to the 'super off peak' tickets national rail offer but TFL don't which means a paper ticket and paper travelcards can still be cheaper than contactless.

 

The basic issue comes in 3 parts. Firstly 'time based' tickets are not standardised across TfL and NR with NR having more of them. Secondly NR has operator specific tickets NONE of which can adequality be accommodated by a 'tap and go' system without the use of specific TOC issued smart cards (where as with TfL a simple bank card is all you need) Thirdly NR also has 'advanced' fares which have to be booked in advance of travel and therefore require some way of recording the transaction and letting you through the gates - maybe we could call it a ticket! 

 

The Government and TOCs like having these anomalies - it goes with the free market ethos which gave rise to privatisation in the first place that competition based on price delivers best value for the consumer. The fact that it also means airline passengers usually pay over the odds for train tickets - particularly when the airlines flog them Gatwick Express Oyster cards during incoming flights.

[APOLLO]

"They" want us out of our cars, and to stay at home, and ARE doing everything possible to dissuade us from travelling.

 

https://www.15minutecity.com/

 

Brit15

[Mallard60022]

39 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

"They" want us out of our cars, and to stay at home, and ARE doing everything possible to dissuade us from travelling.

https://www.15minutecity.com/

Brit15

This 15 minute City thing has been taken on by the WEF Conspiracy Theorists and so I really can't take anything said about it seriously. The idea that folk should be able to get most things within 15 minutes of home WITHOURT resorting to Car use was hijacked by the likes of the Mail and that ilk of trash.

However, your comment re dissuade Public Transport  use seems to be correct. Too many fingers in too many pies syndrome.

We will start to get far too political if we go down this Road (see what I did there?)

 

What we, as informed folk about Railways (well most of us), need to be doing, is joining the chatter with the general public and reassuring them  with helpful information. Is there a temporary role here for trained 'Friends of Station' X, Y or Z?

Sadly, countering Social Media is almost impossible.

I'd like to see how things are after 6 months of this and an Election looming, or preferably, done.

 

 

[Mike_Walker]

It's no doubt due to the looming election that the government is attempting to force this through by the end of the year.  If it can be delayed until after the election then hopefully the issue will go away.

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

"They" want us out of our cars, and to stay at home, and ARE doing everything possible to dissuade us from travelling.

 

https://www.15minutecity.com/

 

Brit15

Great. We've gone from Schrodinger's Ticket Office to 5G tin hats.  I remember 15 minute cities, it was called the 1970s before the supermarkets all went massive and out of town, and the butchers, bakers, greengrocers and newsagents all became charity or vape shops. Ever wonder why all those post war housing estates had parades of shops in them  ? They weren't supposed to all be betting shops or tanning parlours (or boarded up). 

I'm out. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Wheatley

[brushman47544]

This is very anti American. Seriously… In the last few months I have tried to help several American tourists to buy tickets from a machine using their cards but they can’t because their banks cards don’t have a PIN…

[Chris116]

I well remember the closure of all London Underground ticket offices. The public were told that it would mean more staff around stations. For approximately a year that was true but once nearly 1000 staff had taken voluntary severance my local stations went from having a Supervisor, a Ticket Office clerk and a gate line member of staff to being run by one member of staff who can be anywhere on the station doing their duties but how does a member of the public know where the staff are when they need help?

[Kris]

From what I have seen there will not be a single ticket office open west of Plymouth after 2024.

[John M Upton]

2 hours ago, Kris said:

From what I have seen there will not be a single ticket office open west of Plymouth after 2024.

...and not many east of Plymouth by 2025 either....

[Mallard60022]

25 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

...and not many east of Plymouth by 2025 either....

Grief, not even Bristol?