Mass cull of ticket offices

[wombatofludham]

George, the Stourbridge Station Cat Facebook mega-star, has shared a link to a Parliamentary petition opposing the closure of booking offices, although I suspect he is more concerned about the fact closing the booking office would mean fewer visitors bringing him treats.

e-petition link

 

We should make the public aware that the DfT clearly don't like station cats as the closure programme would mean Jess in Andover, George at Stourbridge and Felix and Bolt in Huddersfield (who between them must have massively increased Huddersfield's attraction as a destination station) will all be made homeless and left starving on the streets (wouldn't actually happen but never let the truth spoil a scare).  Mick Lynch, there's a golden opportunity to enlist the massed battalions of dotty cat-women of the world in your campaign.  There's an election coming...

[woodenhead]

29 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Maybe I have missed something, but why would NR be involved in ticket office closures? It is not AFAIK their responsibility!

 

They manage some key stations rather than TOCS, here is the list of them

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/communities/passengers/our-stations/

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, 33C said:

Ha! Yes, the queue's at the ticket machines! Long! You should see them on a Monday morning trying to renew season tickets......I have not seen the like in my entire career. These "customers" were a long, long, long way from happy. Yet the booking office with it's three, manned windows...Shut. The staff knew them by name and what they wanted before they said good morning, and a very short queue that moved quickly. Customer focused my ar$e.

Well maybe.  but don't forget that Monday n mrnings were always a busy dauy for season tickets - Weeklies, the odd monthly or quqrterly and in some places every single one was for an odd period where you had to calculate teh fare in order to give the passenger the best deal.  Great if the passenger had dropped in their request note on Friday evening and you could get the ticket done on Saturday , Not anything like as much fun if they were coming back from holiday or had forgotten to put in a request.  And then they usually arrived less than 10 minutes before their train was due to go.  

 

Even in 1970 it wasn't at all unusual at a smal station with heavy commuter usage to take over £1,000 - 1,500 in less than 3 hours on a Monday  - when the most expensive regularly issued monthly seasons cost something between £30 and 40.  And it was all either cash or cheques.

[big jim]

it is kind of amusing (in a non funny ha ha way) that some of the same people on social media who were baying for RMT members to be sacked and replaced with machines when they were on strike are now up in arms about people being replaced by machines!

 

maybe now they will understand the strikes werent solely about the money 
 

 

[Steven B]

There are plenty of stations that aren't staffed which manage quite well without passengers getting mugged every day. A report on Radio Four said that some of the ticket offices that are closing only see one or two sales a day - surely it makes sense to close these. The same report suggested that current ticket-office staff would simply be redeployed on platforms and concourses to help passengers use the machine - and yet the link to Northern's implementation of the scheme suggests that staff and hours will be cut.

 

A wider problem is it's another step towards a cashless society. Fine for 90% of the population but potentially life changing for the remainder. Do we really want to get to the state only buy a train/bus/parking ticket if you've got the right smart-phone with the right app? Fine for those that can manage the technology but what about the significant proportion who struggle with smart phone or can't use the automatic ticket machines because of dyslexia or similar problems?

 

 

Steven B.

[Robin Brasher]

I bought a return ticket to St Albans from Wareham from a ticket machine.  The machine took the money but had run out of cards to give me a ticket.  The booking clerk at Wareham said that the problem with machines is that they don't work.

[Robin Brasher]

2 minutes ago, Steven B said:

There are plenty of stations that aren't staffed which manage quite well without passengers getting mugged every day. A report on Radio Four said that some of the ticket offices that are closing only see one or two sales a day - surely it makes sense to close these. The same report suggested that current ticket-office staff would simply be redeployed on platforms and concourses to help passengers use the machine - and yet the link to Northern's implementation of the scheme suggests that staff and hours will be cut.

 

A wider problem is it's another step towards a cashless society. Fine for 90% of the population but potentially life changing for the remainder. Do we really want to get to the state only buy a train/bus/parking ticket if you've got the right smart-phone with the right app? Fine for those that can manage the technology but what about the significant proportion who struggle with smart phone or can't use the automatic ticket machines because of dyslexia or similar problems?

 

 

Steven B.

10% of the population is a lot of people.  Even if you can use the internet you cannot always get a ticket.  I tried to get a return from Wareham to East Cowes on the National Rail site and the response was 'Bad Request' yet I had no problem getting the ticket from the ticket office.

[wombatofludham]

Well, the cat ladies are massing already on Faceache, so if you want to keep your booking office, get a cat.

Part of me does wonder if this is all some sort of plot.  Given the reaction so far, I can't help thinking this might actually be a very clever ruse to put someone in the Department firmly back into their box once they realise people actually want staffed stations.  

[31A]

42 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

They manage some key stations rather than TOCS, here is the list of them

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/communities/passengers/our-stations/

 

They don't run the ticket offices at any of them, though.

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

They don't run the ticket offices at any of them, though.

No, but the TOCs run them on their behalf and the TOCs are not classing them as theirs when it comes to the consultation.

 

Don't forget whilst the TOCS are eagerly closing ticket offices, at the end of the day they are doing so at the behest of DFT - so the DFT simply tell Network Rail to close their ticket offices who then instruct the TOC leading at each of the NR stations to close the office.

[31A]

Just now, woodenhead said:

No, but the TOCs run them on their behalf and the TOCs are not classing them as theirs when it comes to the consultation.

 

Don't forget whilst the TOCS are eagerly closing ticket offices, at the end of the day they are doing so at the behest of DFT - so the DFT simply tell Network Rail to close their ticket offices who then instruct the TOC leading at each of the NR stations to close the office.

 

Well the LNER consultation web page lists the changes proposed to King's Cross and Edinburgh Waverley Travel Centres and the Northern one includes Leeds ticket office, which are all Network Rail managed stations, so it appears those TOCs DO class them as theirs for the purposes of the consultation!  They have always been the TOCs responsibility at Network Rail managed stations.  They lease the properties from Network Rail; Network Rail has never been a ticket retailer or had any responsibility for ticket revenue income.

 

As well as the Avanti Travel Centre which is slated to close, Glasgow Central also has a Scotrail ticket office which is not (in fact I think it has two, as there was another Scotrail one in the Low Level station as well the last time I was there).

[Robin Brasher]

Two of the stations on South Western Railways list for closures: Corfe Castle and Lymington Pier, never had a South Western Railway ticket office in the first place. Despite this there are around 230 ticket offices on the list.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

17 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

will we again finish up with teh situation when amajor signal failure between Didcot and Swindon left me - waiting for atrain (it was canceklled in teh end) having to do more to help passengers with diversionary information than the people paid to do it.  None of them could give passengers any information about how to get to Swindon - one of the simplest things imaginable in such a situation.  And as for Gloucester - forget it, along with Exeter and all points west (there was a blockade on the B&H so that route was out.  The staff need an awful lot of 'railway knowledge' training if they are to be of any use in passenger facing situations.

That's partly a problem of societal changes around work, and it's not confined to the railways.  In the old days you typically worked for one employer all your life for bosses who actually cared about the business.  You picked up a lot of knowledge while in a junior post and eventually gained enough experience to be promoted to fill "dead men's shoes"

 

Nowadays, there is a much more casual come-and-go attitude to work, partly caused by all the takes-overs and mergers which are so rife and directors who often have little industry knowledge themselves and do little to improve the underlying business but walk away with a golden handshake having been overpiad while they were there.  Whereas the rank & file take a job (any old job) to secure an income but change jobs every time they can find something that pays better or fall out with the equally unqualified a*sehole who's just been brought in over their heads.  Which means hardly anybody has  the in-depth knowledge that the old hands used to have,  So management has to introduce systems to provide the answers and de-skill the job still further.

[Michael Hodgson]

42 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

Well, the cat ladies are massing already on Faceache, so if you want to keep your booking office, get a cat.
 

We've got four.

[Reorte]

43 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

Well, the cat ladies are massing already on Faceache, so if you want to keep your booking office, get a cat.

Part of me does wonder if this is all some sort of plot.  Given the reaction so far, I can't help thinking this might actually be a very clever ruse to put someone in the Department firmly back into their box once they realise people actually want staffed stations.  

Call me cynical, or a plan to close quite a lot, but nowhere near as many as currently being mentioned. Just closing the ones they want outright would cause a lot of complaint, as much as this is getting. But propose more then appear to rethink is an attempt at looking reasonable.

 

[woodenhead]

20 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

Well the LNER consultation web page lists the changes proposed to King's Cross and Edinburgh Waverley Travel Centres and the Northern one includes Leeds ticket office, which are all Network Rail managed stations, so it appears those TOCs DO class them as theirs for the purposes of the consultation!  They have always been the TOCs responsibility at Network Rail managed stations.  They lease the properties from Network Rail; Network Rail has never been a ticket retailer or had any responsibility for ticket revenue income.

 

As well as the Avanti Travel Centre which is slated to close, Glasgow Central also has a Scotrail ticket office which is not (in fact I think it has two, as there was another Scotrail one in the Low Level station as well the last time I was there).

Maybe because Northern and LNER are operator of the last resort led so Government whereas Avanti is Trenitalia so not Government.

 

It doesn't really matter though does it, arguing about who owns a ticket office that is about to be closed.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Reorte said:

Call me cynical, or a plan to close quite a lot, but nowhere near as many as currently being mentioned. Just closing the ones they want outright would cause a lot of complaint, as much as this is getting. But propose more then appear to rethink is an attempt at looking reasonable.

 

Which is a common tactic, threaten the worst and then what actually occurs is more acceptable to the masses.

 

To me there should always be a case for ticket offices at major destinations and larger stations simply so that people have somewhere they can get to to make a longer inter city journey.   For example many smaller stations are already unstaffed, there must then be quite a subset of slightly bigger stations still with a ticket office but barely selling any tickets and if the consultation was on the basis of tickets sold by the ticket office (as opposed to ticket machine or app) then I could see the case for going unstaffed at those locations.

 

So maybe as you say the initial tactic is to enrage the unions and travelling public in order to seem to back down by doing something which is actually sensible when costs are going up and revenue is static.

[Michael Hodgson]

I remember a time when you didn't just have to buy a ticket in a booking office.  They employed a boooking clerk to sell it to you, a TTI to make sure you had it and weren't fare dodging, and then another bloke on the exit barrier collecting them all back in again.  And that was after the days of separate companies all having to send them in to the clearing house to pay each other what was due on a through ticket.

[Mallard60022]

I can assure certain posters on here that isolated and unstaffed  Stations in areas of large population, are a NO GO for a huge number of people and unstaffed smaller stations in built up areas are not places to be after dark or later in the say in Summer. They are just scary places. I know this because locally there have been informal surveys done. Retford Lower Platforms, despite the Staffing on the Main Station and Cameras and the newly installed and well lit walkway to the Platforms 3 and 4 are deemed unpleasant by women in particular. 

Then there are many people who will never choose to use Trains, because of the issues of being in crowds. It may seem irrational but that's how it is. 

The simple fact of having someone staffing a Station and visible during certain times, as with having someone on a Train that is there to 'watch out' for passengers at certain times, are the two main comments that come from huge numbers of folk that are involved enough to want to comment about what's proposed. 

Add to this what many have said about lack of travel knowledge and uncertainty about ticketing, is limiting the number of passengers already deciding that the Train is a last resort. 

Finally, the NHS and the Railways/Tramways/Metros, are probably the two largest organisations that serve the Public face to face. 

Look at what's happening in both those organisations! In my humble opinion they are both/all seen as being overstaffed by Government. Really? I'll leave that there! 

Phil

[31A]

44 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Maybe because Northern and LNER are operator of the last resort led so Government whereas Avanti is Trenitalia so not Government.

Nothing to do with that - it's been the same since the start of Privatisation.  I could equally well have instanced Waterloo, Euston or any of the other Network Rail managed stations.

[31A]

10 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

The simple fact of having someone staffing a Station and visible during certain times, as with having someone on a Train that is there to 'watch out' for passengers at certain times, are the two main comments that come from huge numbers of folk that are involved enough to want to comment about what's proposed. 

 

Well, that's what they've said they want to improve, by having station staff out and about and 'visible' to the public rather than behind a ticket office window, which in some cases may well be some distance from the platforms and not within sight of them.

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

10% of the population is a lot of people.  Even if you can use the internet you cannot always get a ticket.  I tried to get a return from Wareham to East Cowes on the National Rail site and the response was 'Bad Request' yet I had no problem getting the ticket from the ticket office.

Some weeks ago National Rail website steadfastly blocked all attempts to purchase a ticket. I had to log

on to the LNWR app to make the booking & pay.Yesterday it diverted me to the XC website to buy a return booking to Cardiff 

[Ian Hargrave]

19 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Well said. And explains the reasons why tomorrow I’ll be driving from  Middle England to the South Coast,returning Saturday..well partially explains anyway as my luggage is a separate issue…but an issue that is crucial for all generations. Is there a fix for this nonsense ?

And in fairness an update on that,providing that Sod’s law will have its evil way ultimately.An accident M25 between J9& J7 with consequent grinding creep plus a screaming bladder caused diversion via Reigate ( got lost ) 
and Gatwick Tesco ( relief achieved) . Journey time including two stops ,Burton to Lewes  5 3/4 hours. Yes we do need trains. I am knackered.
 

[The Stationmaster]

58 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Which is a common tactic, threaten the worst and then what actually occurs is more acceptable to the masses.

 

To me there should always be a case for ticket offices at major destinations and larger stations simply so that people have somewhere they can get to to make a longer inter city journey.   For example many smaller stations are already unstaffed, there must then be quite a subset of slightly bigger stations still with a ticket office but barely selling any tickets and if the consultation was on the basis of tickets sold by the ticket office (as opposed to ticket machine or app) then I could see the case for going unstaffed at those locations.

 

So maybe as you say the initial tactic is to enrage the unions and travelling public in order to seem to back down by doing something which is actually sensible when costs are going up and revenue is static.

I think not.  Basically the dumbps at DafT living in their own little world are calling the shots because it suits them to think they know what they are doing.

 

Underused booking offices were being closed by BR n back in the 1960s and i wouldn't mind betting that some on Big Four railways were closed in the 1930s.  But this isn't about that at all -it's just some cock-eyed idea that closing a booking office will reduce costs without hitting revenue.  And there we live in teh land, literally of the Daft T.

 

On our branch only our terminus and the junction station have had bpoking offoces for over 50 years.  The two intermediate stations required people to buy a ticket from the Conductor Guard - when therewas one on the train.  Since the arrival of Turbos the preseence of a Conductor has been for the morning peak only.

 

So queue at the junction station bookinb g office on teh part of the hinest passengers who joined at teh intermediates, and the terminus after the booking office closed every day.    And no doubt in the loony land of DafT the junction booking office's days are numbered (if it hasn't already succumned.

 

So what happens now?  Well you can tap in' - which I suspect makes a journey into London more expensive than buying a Travelcard  although the internediate stations have recently gained ticket machines - which presumably don't take cash.   But how many people wiill simply avoid payment where they can -such as those travelling between theh two intermediate stations?  I know some do because I've watched it happen.  So what is it doing to the revenue on the branch - when will the closure excuse arrive I wonder?

 

Fare avoidance is an endemic problem on the railway network and if staff aren't there to check that people have tickets those people will learn not to buy tickets.  you should see what happens when the Revenue Protection inspectors make one of their occasional visits - very illuminating

[Mike_Walker]

10 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think not.  Basically the dumbps at DafT living in their own little world are calling the shots because it suits them to think they know what they are doing.

 

Underused booking offices were being closed by BR n back in the 1960s and i wouldn't mind betting that some on Big Four railways were closed in the 1930s.  But this isn't about that at all -it's just some cock-eyed idea that closing a booking office will reduce costs without hitting revenue.  And there we live in teh land, literally of the Daft T.

 

On our branch only our terminus and the junction station have had bpoking offoces for over 50 years.  The two intermediate stations required people to buy a ticket from the Conductor Guard - when therewas one on the train.  Since the arrival of Turbos the preseence of a Conductor has been for the morning peak only.

 

So queue at the junction station bookinb g office on teh part of the hinest passengers who joined at teh intermediates, and the terminus after the booking office closed every day.    And no doubt in the loony land of DafT the junction booking office's days are numbered (if it hasn't already succumned.

 

So what happens now?  Well you can tap in' - which I suspect makes a journey into London more expensive than buying a Travelcard  although the internediate stations have recently gained ticket machines - which presumably don't take cash.   But how many people wiill simply avoid payment where they can -such as those travelling between theh two intermediate stations?  I know some do because I've watched it happen.  So what is it doing to the revenue on the branch - when will the closure excuse arrive I wonder?

 

Fare avoidance is an endemic problem on the railway network and if staff aren't there to check that people have tickets those people will learn not to buy tickets.  you should see what happens when the Revenue Protection inspectors make one of their occasional visits - very illuminating

The Marlow branch obviously superior then (that's why the train destination screens show route 01) !  In addition to Bourne End and Maidenhead, both Cookham and Furze Platt are staffed in the mornings Monday to Saturday (M-F at FP).  On train ticket checks/sales happen almost every time I travel but that could be down to Mrs Hopwood Snr being a daily traveller on the branch and if anything is not being done correctly a report goes in to Swindon!