Mass cull of ticket offices

[33C]

On 07/07/2023 at 13:31, Forward! said:

One problem I've found with 'roving' staff, particularly at large stations, is that they tend to attract a scrum of people seeking assistance. Especially so if something goes wrong with the services. That often means the most assertive get their problems solved first. The queuing system is abandoned, and that, frankly, signals the imminent collapse of society.

 

 

I am lost for words sometimes when I listen to management and read the guff published. If a business starts alienating just 10% of customers who are uncomfortable with "the business-model", relies on the majority, trusting them to actually pay, and straight up ignores the ones who don't or won't (all seen in the previous week), then that business is certainly not really bothered about passenger revenue, safety, satisfaction. Subsidy is the key word and also avoiding punctuality fines. The TOCS get paid regardless of what is happening on the ground, (platform/concourse)! We now seem to have "Security" staff, (dressed and labelled as such), doing railway duties, for half the money, not actually providing much in the way of security..

 

[andyman7]

21 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Not so! I believe similar anomalies occur between Reading and London, Luton and London, etc due to the 'super off peak' tickets national rail offer but TFL don't which means a paper ticket and paper travelcards can still be cheaper than contactless.

 

The basic issue comes in 3 parts. Firstly 'time based' tickets are not standardised across TfL and NR with NR having more of them. Secondly NR has operator specific tickets NONE of which can adequality be accommodated by a 'tap and go' system without the use of specific TOC issued smart cards (where as with TfL a simple bank card is all you need) Thirdly NR also has 'advanced' fares which have to be booked in advance of travel and therefore require some way of recording the transaction and letting you through the gates - maybe we could call it a ticket! 

 

The Government and TOCs like having these anomalies - it goes with the free market ethos which gave rise to privatisation in the first place that competition based on price delivers best value for the consumer. The fact that it also means airline passengers usually pay over the odds for train tickets - particularly when the airlines flog them Gatwick Express Oyster cards during incoming flights.

Those are all outside the core London zonal area and are not identical scenarios- for example Reading is not within Oyster but has Contactless fares. The last paragraph is not true in the sense  that no-one likes having these anomalies but they are all a result of the lack of an industry level structure to manage fares outside the TOC structure, although he pint about airport passengers is true the world over.

 

The tap-and-go schemes that are now being planned will address these issues. We all agree that they should be done in advance of closing ticket offices, but I don't think fair as a generalisation that tap and go doesn't give the best fare when within the London fare zones it does; and to also make the point that done properly it can also be configured to do so elsewhere. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by andyman7

[Mike_Walker]

This is NOT a TOC management led programme, they are simply carrying out the instructions of DafT.  Likewise, now that all revenue goes directly to the government and the TOCs get a management fee with a small "profit" margin there is no incentive for them to collect revenue as there was when it was their main income stream.

[The Stationmaster]

On 07/07/2023 at 13:34, andyman7 said:

It's because the legal structure of the passenger Train Operators is still set up to assume they are privatised entities with scope for self-determination. This means the DfT cannot just dictate the change - it has to go through a merry dance so that the Train Operators are 'encouraged' to propose closures that the DfT can review and consent to. as laid down in the industry legal processes.
Although many have said that the consultation is a tick-box exercise I have no doubt that when it goes to DfT for the Secretary of State to consider, some will be refused or be required to be modified so that they can 'demonstrate' that the process was fair and transparent.

 

As all passenger operators (except open access concerns) are now either 'an operator of last resort' or on a contract instead of being a franchisee surely the concern which granted that contract - and which in any case gets all the revenue (i.e. DfT)  -can instruct the operators to do its bidding?   Effectively the operators have no choice - unless they wish to have their contract terminated they have to do what they are told to do.

 

On 08/07/2023 at 00:21, phil-b259 said:

 

Not so! I believe similar anomalies occur between Reading and London, Luton and London, etc due to the 'super off peak' tickets national rail offer but TFL don't which means a paper ticket and paper travelcards can still be cheaper than contactless.

 

No anomaly at Reading as the fares are only NR - OysterCards are not valid (they are only valid as far out as West Drayron, inclusive).   However TFL Over 60 FreedomPasses are valid out to Reading- but only for travel on LixzLine trains.  Even at the four stations west of West Drayton now served exclusively by the Liz Line Oyster Cards are not valid for travel.  

 

There are only four stations where a choice of operator now exists on the Liz Line west of Paddington and they are Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, and Reading.  Strangely however Twyford - the only example I know of - has Oyster Card tap -in machines at one entrance only  (out of four entrances/exits) and they appear to be usually defunct and are  in any case ignored - as they should be.  So quite why TfL wasted public money providing them I'm not sure.   There are no Oyster tap-ins at Reading - which is fully machine gated. (when those on the north side are actually operational)

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[darrel]

Don't forget at smaller stations the ticket office staff grit the platforms during cold weather. And clear away the snow. Who is going to do that? 

At unmanned stations there is a cleaning squad that will do that. But you will need more of them you will need to buy more vans for them more diesel and road tax for the vans. And even then it will take longer for them to get round all the stations. There will be more compensation claims from customers slipping and injuring themselves on untreated platforms. 

 

There will be extra costs fixing all the additional vandalism that will happen. 

 

Also staff are trained to approach people acting out of the ordinary. The person who has stood on the platform and not got on the train, perhaps their waiting on a friend who is running late, maybe they are an enthusiast. Or maybe they are considering suicide. Many lives have been saved by staff making an intervention. If there is no one to stop them then the number of suicides on the railway will increase along with the resulting delays and cancellations. Not that this government care. 

[Fishoutofwater]

1 hour ago, darrel said:

Don't forget at smaller stations the ticket office staff grit the platforms during cold weather. And clear away the snow. Who is going to do that? 

At unmanned stations there is a cleaning squad that will do that. But you will need more of them you will need to buy more vans for them more diesel and road tax for the vans. And even then it will take longer for them to get round all the stations. There will be more compensation claims from customers slipping and injuring themselves on untreated platforms. 

 

There will be extra costs fixing all the additional vandalism that will happen. 

 

Also staff are trained to approach people acting out of the ordinary. The person who has stood on the platform and not got on the train, perhaps their waiting on a friend who is running late, maybe they are an enthusiast. Or maybe they are considering suicide. Many lives have been saved by staff making an intervention. If there is no one to stop them then the number of suicides on the railway will increase along with the resulting delays and cancellations. Not that this government care. 

The staff will still be there just doing things differently at some times of the day. 

[Mike_Walker]

1 minute ago, Fishoutofwater said:

The staff will still be there just doing things differently at some times of the day. 

But not for very long.  Former TO staff will soon become fed up with their new roles and seek alternative employment.  At that point they will not be replaced and stations will become permanently unstaffed.

[Mallard60022]

The ones at my Station, a Junction on the ECML, are taking their 'leave'. One is Retiring due to ill Health and another is just saying stuff you I'm off. There was another that filled in but they have long gone. It's down to mornings only and no Saturday afternoons despite the large increase in Saturday Travel locally anyway. Not been Sundays for a very long time. My suspicion is that almost all potential Travellers that would only use the Ticket Office will change their plans unless it's just impossible not to. The few others may get help as they start using the Machines, BUT what sort of Tickets will that produce for complex Journeys? A Platform salesperson having to deal with something like a 5+ minutes Enquiry and then the person only has cash; is that going to work if there are 10 of them with a few minutes before the Train arrives/departs?  Cash? Creating a problem for the Staff carrying Money?

A thorough investigation at a Station like mine, moderately busy ECML but with sometimes long gaps between departures, should have discovered the regular patterns of passenger movement and typical Journeys. Was that achieved, or is the decision just based on Revenue from Sales at Windows? I have no idea how Contracts work, but a Part Time Position, where the Staff Member is allocated to Cover identified busy periods and can give Travel Advice, must be an option? In between times, the Station Staff/Info Office could deal with Ticketing on demand, rather like a Conductor.

There must be room to have flexibility on personal service, as on Social Media the biggest concern from so many is NOT having  Staff  available. It is also safe to say that women in particular feel very strongly about the perceived risks. They are already very concerned about the threat to on board Staff, but are confused about the Role of the Guard and so often say they won't use Stations that have no obvious human Security even if that's in an Office!

I also see that Amazon are now touting Rail Tickets! 

The Coach Companies are also having a field day with "...come with us, its' safe and comfy..." style adverts.

If you want your head to explode, then visit one of the SM threads from the Unions about 'Saving your Services' and that being Station Staff and good on board security at the moment.

My favourite on the posts by Unions are all crap and on the take brigade, is the fully automated Rail Service with no Humans involved in any way! NO Drivers (they earn too much). No Guards; they aren't needed at all and a waste of tax payers money. NO Station Staff as everyone can just help everybody else if needed! NO need for tickets as it's all on an App. Have these people ever had any education? They appear to be able to almost put a sentence together.

OK maybe in 2050, but next Year?

If challenged with what about Aircraft, then the answer is always Auto-Pilot; oh yea!

I'll try what about Coaches next and see what happens!

Phil

I've given up; its frightening 

[darrel]

3 hours ago, Fishoutofwater said:

The staff will still be there just doing things differently at some times of the day. 

They won't though. Maybe at a large stations but a small station like Appleby there will be no staff

[andyman7]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

As all passenger operators (except open access concerns) are now either 'an operator of last resort' or on a contract instead of being a franchisee surely the concern which granted that contract - and which in any case gets all the revenue (i.e. DfT)  -can instruct the operators to do its bidding?   Effectively the operators have no choice - unless they wish to have their contract terminated they have to do what they are told to do.

 

Under the current legal framework, the DfT cannot simply instruct operators as each operator is legally bound to each other operator via the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (TSA) which is administered by a legal construct of the TOCs themselves subject to regulatory approval. Some TOCs are not answerable to DfT, eg Transport for Wales and Scotrail. A direct instruction to a TOC to (for example) discontinue a regulated railway ticket office that supplies ticket sales on behalf of the other operators is illegal under this setup - it has to be done via the correct TSA process including consultation. It matters not that multiple parties to the agreement are contracted to the same body - it is still a requirement to follow the structure.
This complex legal structure all seemed terribly clever back in 1995 when Labour looked on course to win the next election, and 'booby-trapping' the privatisation legal structure to prevent any easy reversion to Government control sounded like a great idea; in the event it proved quite convenient to the Blair Government that such reversion wasn't straightforward; they had other priorities and it gave them an excuse to go back on the renationalisation pledge they had made. Instead they created a 'Strategic Rail Authority' to oversee the arrangements; and then abolished it when it got to big for its boots and decided to let the DfT handle the rail contracts. 
It is therefore supremely ironic that when Covid finally destroyed the last vestiges of private sector risk in the rail industry the political successors to Major's government find themselves saddled with a massively unwieldy structure that they have no bandwidth to manage effectively themselves, and are so disunited and lacking in time or political capital that they can't untangle it before the next election.

[roythebus1]

I don't know if anyone's posted this link on here yet, but it's gaining a lot of support on FB. 

 

https://busandtrainuser.com/2023/07/08/ticket-office-closure-con/

 

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by roythebus1

[newbryford]

39 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

I don't know if anyone's posted this link on here yet, but it's gaining a lot of support on FB. 

 

https://busandtrainuser.com/2023/07/08/ticket-office-closure-con/

 

 

 

There's also a petition on change.org

[Dava]

What happens to Park & Ride tickets? On EMR these offer a discounted car parking ticket with a return, even cheaper after morning peak, but issue requires ticket validation by staff and it’s not an option on the auto ticket system. With Railcard it’s an even better option, and you can renew railcard at the office too. Without this it will be cheaper to drive to work. I don’t agree with the ticket office closures either.

 

Dava

[david.hill64]

7 hours ago, Dava said:

What happens to Park & Ride tickets? On EMR these offer a discounted car parking ticket with a return, even cheaper after morning peak, but issue requires ticket validation by staff and it’s not an option on the auto ticket system. With Railcard it’s an even better option, and you can renew railcard at the office too. Without this it will be cheaper to drive to work. I don’t agree with the ticket office closures either.

 

Dava

If the staff who are currently in the ticket office are instead on the concourse then they can still validate tickets.

 

The key issue will be about the technology that is going to be used for tickets. If it's around a smartphone app, then railcards, car parking etc can all be linked into that. Smart cards can also do a lot. In Taiwan I use something that used to be called an Easy Card but now seems to be in the process of being renamed as the T pass. I can use this on metros, conventional rail, buses and taxis. Bus transfers are free in conjunction with rail travel and it all works well. 

[phil-b259]

28 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

If the staff who are currently in the ticket office are instead on the concourse then they can still validate tickets.

 

The key issue will be about the technology that is going to be used for tickets. If it's around a smartphone app, then railcards, car parking etc can all be linked into that. Smart cards can also do a lot. In Taiwan I use something that used to be called an Easy Card but now seems to be in the process of being renamed as the T pass. I can use this on metros, conventional rail, buses and taxis. Bus transfers are free in conjunction with rail travel and it all works well. 

 

Indeed - but lets be realistic - given the DfT* couldn't hold a piss up in a brewery and their repeated promises to reform the ticketing system over the past few moths have turned out to be nothing but hot air so the chances of the technology being in place to cater for this wonderful ticket counter less world is remote.

 

More likely you will get exactly what we have got now - but worse because there won't be as many staff about to help folk regardless of the 'promises' being made by the train operators or their puppet master in Whitehall.

 

 

* TOCs cannot so much as sneeze these days without the DfT giving permission - and those who still pretend that TOCs have any say in what goes on need to come out of their fairly bubble and wake up to reality!

[david.hill64]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Indeed - but lets be realistic - given the DfT* couldn't hold a piss up in a brewery and their repeated promises to reform the ticketing system over the past few moths have turned out to be nothing but hot air so the chances of the technology being in place to cater for this wonderful ticket counter less world is remote.

 

More likely you will get exactly what we have got now - but worse because there won't be as many staff about to help folk regardless of the 'promises' being made by the train operators or their puppet master in Whitehall.

 

 

* TOCs cannot so much as sneeze these days without the DfT giving permission - and those who still pretend that TOCs have any say in what goes on need to come out of their fairly bubble and wake up to reality!

Cannot say that I disagree with any of that!

[wombatofludham]

14 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

If challenged with what about Aircraft, then the answer is always Auto-Pilot; oh yea!

I'll try what about Coaches next and see what happens!

Phil

I've given up; its frightening 

I know I annoy a lot of people with my disdain for the British public but I long ago came to the conclusion Joe and Joanna Numpty are so dense it's a wonder they haven't caused a gravitational black hole.  All social media does is give these morons the oxygen of publicity denied them when they were not allowed anything sharper than a wax crayon to scrawl their dribblings with.

As for aircraft, autopilot and computer flight controls have only reduced cockpit numbers down to two from three or four.  Theoretically pilotless aircraft are possible now but I doubt there would be many choosing to fly in them, otherwise Ryanair would have employed the technology by now.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 05/07/2023 at 14:21, 33C said:

Remember, Cui Bono? Not you or me.

Since 'tap in, tap out' arrived at my local station I feel very advantaged. It's convenient, goodbye bits of paper to acquire and tote around. This is real progress and no good will come of resisting it, should be made universal over the UK network ASAP.

 

Now, there will be consequent problems arising: that's what management are  employed to fix. A larger patrolling railway police presence might be a plan?

[phil_sutters]

Having found that card tickets with London Travelcards, paid for online and collected from the Southern Railway ticket machine at our local station, don't always register with LU readers, I commented on this to our friendly and very knowledgeable ticket office clerk. She said 'Oh yes, those ones do sometimes cause problems, but ones from ticket office machine usually work.' Another reason why she and her machine should be kept in employment. 

I can't see any point in kicking her and her colleagues out of their offices to wander round our one platform to help those struggling with the ticket machine. I guess neither will the rail company, so it will be left unstaffed. How many free rides do DfT and the rail companies want to give away? It is well known that there is almost no chance of having your ticket examined between Newhaven and Seaford, as the usual checks, when they are done, are between Newhaven and Lewes.

I went from Eastbourne to Bexhill recently, both sets of barriers were open in both directions.

[Reorte]

16 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

If you want your head to explode, then visit one of the SM threads from the Unions about 'Saving your Services' and that being Station Staff and good on board security at the moment.

My favourite on the posts by Unions are all crap and on the take brigade, is the fully automated Rail Service with no Humans involved in any way! NO Drivers (they earn too much). No Guards; they aren't needed at all and a waste of tax payers money. NO Station Staff as everyone can just help everybody else if needed! NO need for tickets as it's all on an App. Have these people ever had any education? They appear to be able to almost put a sentence together.

OK maybe in 2050, but next Year?

 

That all adds up to being a very unpleasant, dehumanised, dystopian view of the not too distant future. And it's not just railways this is happening to - we're hell-bent on removing our fellow human beings from as much as possible, doing our best to make sure we never have to interact with another one, and not just the really dangerous or dull stuff that no-one wants to to in the first place (the only area it makes sense).

 

As well as being unpleasant I always find it really rather silly replacing jobs humans can do fine with machines. Might've made sense two centuries ago but most of the arguments about why it's all so great really feel like solving the past's problems.

[Phil Parker]

5 minutes ago, Reorte said:

That all adds up to being a very unpleasant, dehumanised, dystopian view of the not too distant future. And it's not just railways this is happening to - we're hell-bent on removing our fellow human beings from as much as possible, doing our best to make sure we never have to interact with another one, and not just the really dangerous or dull stuff that no-one wants to to in the first place (the only area it makes sense).

 

Considering the number of times discussions on model shops here, have contributions along the lines of "I don't want to go to a model shop. I want to do everything online!!!!", I think this is funny...

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, phil_sutters said:

How many free rides do DfT and the rail companies want to give away?

My foreign travel has been severely restricted since 2002, so I am not anywhere near up to date, but by the early 1990s, there were rail operations outside the UK worked on a trust system. Most rail users fully  understand  'Don't pay = service goes away'. Those inclined to dishonesty will do it, whatever...

[Reorte]

12 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Considering the number of times discussions on model shops here, have contributions along the lines of "I don't want to go to a model shop. I want to do everything online!!!!", I think this is funny...

It would be if I was one of those saying that.

 

I like being able to order things online that would've been nigh impossible without it. But I'd always rather buy in person if at all possible, and generally will still do so when it's reasonably practical (i.e. I'll resort to online rather than drive half way across the country). There's very little I've bought online for modelling, there's fortunately still a shop not too far away from me (SMTF in Poynton), and for most of what I can't get there I'll wait for a show.

 

I very much regard everything moving online as a very negative, damaging aspect of current society and the direction it's heading in. As an addition it's great, as a replacement the world it's creating is very unappealing.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Reorte

[62613]

38 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Considering the number of times discussions on model shops here, have contributions along the lines of "I don't want to go to a model shop. I want to do everything online!!!!", I think this is funny...

The sort of stuff I order online is the same as I used to do by mail order, enclosing a cheque. So no change there. There have been occasions when I've done that and the stuff I've ordered hasn't been exactly what I wanted when it's arrived. No change there, either!

[Mallard60022]

I've cooled down a bit now.

What appears to me to be wrong with this proposal is that it looks as of it is going to happen all at once. Does it not need to happen over a longer period and be assessed for performance and then perhaps adjusted?

As the older demographic gradually fall away and they are probably those with less confidence in virtual ticketing etc., then a gradual move to a more fully automated system could be successful?

Phil