What do they think of us?

[BlackFivesMatter]

A question, more for the professional railwaymen (railway people?)

What do they, or moreso their non enthusiast colleagues think of railway enthusiasts? Train spotters, photographers (within the law) and people who stare, wave or just look intently? 

Edited July 8, 2023 by AY Mod
Title typo

[33C]

In my experience, if you mention the railway, to anyone, somewhere in their past, is a catalyst for a flicker of interest. 

We had a guy once, very distant, became a driver, but spent all his time working towards something better. The railway job was of no interest, a stepping stone, that's it, no more....

   Until one day.

He sidled up to me, on a rare occasion that we were alone together in the messroom. He was banging away on his his laptop so I had let him be.

 "I hear you have some model trains?" Says he.

 I replied in the affirmative. 

"Could you fix my Virgin HST at all?"

  And then we were off!

I guess this big guy was slightly embarrassed to let it slip...

Everybody on the railway has a connection, somewhere, somehow. Some show it, some don't, but it is there....

[PM47079]

In the 38 years since I have been on the staff side, it's a lot more accepted than it was, has been my experience. 

[Wheatley]

A surprising number of the railwaymen and women I work with are enthusiasts, people are a lot more open about it than they were when I started 30+ years ago.   Especially on the operations side, train planning, timetabling etc. Less so on the pure admin side especially those disciplines which all industries have such as finance, HR etc and they just happen to work for a railway company. 

 

When I wander over to Engineering with a query about Class 158 snowploughs or something equally niche  I'm frequently greeted with "Is this a real question or another ****ing spotter one ?"

 

A significant number of them are aviation enthusiasts as well. I can think of three or four in my office although I think I'm the only modeller. My lad and I were sitting on the platform once waiting for our train while he chatted to a carriage cleaner about Transformers (!) when something flew overhead but we couldnt see it. She and I both reached for our phones and realised at the same time that we'd both gone straight to Flightradar24 to see what it was !

 

As for the full gonzo Uberspotter, it depends how enthusiastically they try to impart everything they know whether you asked them to or not. The sensible ones are fine, those with a missionary zeal can get quite tiresome quite quickly. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Wheatley

[The Johnster]

A big difference is that many of the people like me who were spotters back in the 60s or 70s have retained the interest, but fewer children and teenagers are now involved with the hobby.  This means that the enthusiasts that professional railwaymen encounter are more likely to be adults, with adult attitudes some of whom have considerable erudition, thereby commanding respect and tolerance to a much greater extent than the acne-ridden callow youths of yore, messing around with the BRUTES and making nuisances of ourselves…

 

That said, I went through the Death Steam period, which for me and our little gang involved ever longer weekend expeditions as the sphere of operations retreated further from South Wales.  We would set off on the 00.05 Cardiff-Liverpool very first thing Saturday morning, sleep in the coaches at somewhere like Neville Hill or Newton Heath, eat in bus depot or factory canteens, and encounter other groups from all over the country doing the same thing.  Sometimes we’d even run into the almost mythical Master Neverers, the SAS of spotting (they’d appear from nowhere, illegally clean the engines, and vanish back into the night whence they came).  The real railwaymen were a bit bemused by all this, and a little flattered perhaps, but by and large respected the commitment we showed and often quietly collaborated with us.  They’d not seen people willing to turn out at 3am like they had to before, and were impressed; we must be serious!

 

When I worked on the railway in the 70s, it was as well not to make a big deal of being an enthusiast, the culture wasn’t conducive, but I think most of my colleagues knew, and didn’t mind.   
 

Some enthusiasts have trouble dealing with society; it is well known that railways, a safe and ordered world running predictably and to time (mostly), are attractive to those on the autism spectrum, particularly those with Asburger’s.  I had an aspie girlfriend for a while and am familiar with the issues (she was into 1938 Tube stock upholstery patterns and Brunel bridges), and can see how these people could be difficult to deal with when you have a job to get on with; they need patience and understanding and not everyone has the time…  Trust me, it’s harder for them!  Emma, ‘my’ aspie, explained it like this; ‘a ‘norm’ trainspotter is delighted when an unusual and unexpected loco turn up, but an aspie or anyone else on the spectrum is horrified, the very foundations of that part of their world are compromised.  

Edited July 9, 2023 by The Johnster

[The Pilotman]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Some enthusiasts have trouble dealing with society; it is well known that railways, a safe and ordered world running predictably and to time (mostly), are attractive to those on the autism spectrum, particularly those with Asburger’s.

I assume you meant to type Asperger’s Syndrome. 😉

[Oldddudders]

The industry was always permeated with enthusiasts at every level, but many chose to keep their powder dry. As a result, you didn't have the conversations you might have wanted, had you known.

 

In the late '60s the reprographic section of the SR Central DMO was pretty basic, and an old man sat in the corner with some primitive device including dish chemicals. I was an occasional customer, and they called him Jack. When he died, due recognition was given to the fact that he had been a leading railway photographer, dating back to late LBSCR days - what could I have learned from him? I think he was H M Madgwick. 

 

My boss as Director, Projects, BRB (and simultaneously Project Director ECML Electrification), held a steam driver's ticket ,and I think was on the footplate on the West Highland circa 1990. 

 

The Project Director, Classes 60 and 92, (among others) turned out to be a modeller using RTR locos and stock. He and I discussed poor conductivity on Lima loco wheels! He had a Grange nameplate in the family name above his hearth. 

 

The BRB's Investment Adviser, later Director of Business Review, the late Andrew Jukes, bought the Eversholt ROSCO with others, and reportedly made £16m on selling it on. He then founded Exactoscale, a pretty niche manufacturer, indicating tht he had substantial knowledge of the hobby and its needs. He had joined BR in the late 80's, having been Project Manager for LT's Central Line Upgrade, and earlier in life working oin Rolls Royce's RB211 engine. 

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, The Pilotman said:

I assume you meant to type Asperger’s Syndrome. 😉

Probably. I had wondered if Asburgers are made using rump steak....

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, The Pilotman said:

I assume you meant to type Asperger’s Syndrome. 😉

 I did.  I thought something was wrong when I typed it, it didn’t look right at all, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it.  Autospell accepted it, though, which raises the slightly disturbing possibility that asburgers are actully a thing…

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

 I did.  I thought something was wrong when I typed it, it didn’t look right at all, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it.  Autospell accepted it, though, which raises the slightly disturbing possibility that asburgers are actully a thing…

 

They actually might be!!!

 

Mike.

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

 I did.  I thought something was wrong when I typed it, it didn’t look right at all, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it.  Autospell accepted it, though, which raises the slightly disturbing possibility that asburgers are actully a thing…

 

According to google, asburger can be an alternative spelling for asperger. It can also be a derogatory description for a person.  I'll leave it at that.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

And 'Asperger's' is now a deprecated term, and here's the why:

https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/what-is-autism/the-history-of-autism/asperger-syndrome#:~:text='Asperger syndrome' (often shortened,Asperger%2C which is summarised below.

[MarkC]

Mmm, my daughter, now in her late 20s, was diagnosed as autistic when she was 5. This was later narrowed down to Asberger's. Fun fact - only 1 in 20 Aspies is female, btw...

 

She had a difficult childhood, but with support and guidance, especially once settled in a secondary school who also believed in her, she achieved  great success at GCSE, did 2x 2 year college courses very successfully, then went into baking/catering. However, she's now decided to go back to school, and will start a Graphic Design degree course in September. Her big thing is cosplay - which some would say is even more nerd-ish than our own love of model railways & trains in general...

 

Generally Aspies are very high functioning - and shame on anyone who denigrates them...

 

Mark

[The Johnster]

Pity, on anyone who denigrated Emma, who was more than capable of standing up for herself intellectually and a dab hand with a put down.  Her name for Donald Trump was 'The Ginger Tw*tweasel'; now that's quality!

 

Her academic background was in horticulture, but also attracted by graphic design and, last I heard (we've lost touch) was considering OU.  She'll ace it, provided she can keep off the whackybaccy, which she finds helps with the stress (aspies do not cope well with stress) but is sadly turning her brain to mush.

 

She referred to herself as an aspie, her preferred term, and did not find it in the least derorgatory, preferring to regard it as a mark of her individuality and character.  There was certainly only one Emma, and people who upset her knew all about it, big time!

[Welchester]

4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Probably. I had wondered if Asburgers are made using rump steak....

 

Well, you can buy horsemeat burgers in France, but I've never seen donkey.

[The Johnster]

Popular around Barnsley as well, I’m told.  At least it’s not Royston Vasey ‘special’ meat, local meat for local people, are you, at all, local, sir?

 

We didn’t burn him…

[SM42]

There are more enthusiasts in the job than you would expect. 

Some keep it quiet, others don't. 

 

The " normal" people have the general attitude, similar to that Douglas Adams classic as seeing enthusiasts as mostly harmless 

 

People are derogatory either for fun ( to try and get a reaction)  or genuine bemusement. 

 

Both categories are quite happy when the embedded enthusiast's knowledge comes in useful though. 

 

Whichever category the detractors fall into, they get infuriated when anyone's enthusiast activities cause them work. 

The enthusiasts are the same. 

 

Like any workplace, hobbies are many and varied, but there will.always be those who enjoy their work. 

 

Andy

[AndyB]

I can only relate my own experience when leading a specialist team tasked with investigating the causes behind a major incident. This was in the late 90s/ early 2000s. 

 

The first instruction from on high was not to include anyone whose hobby was "railways" whether that was spotting, modeling or any other format. 

 

There were a number of reasons for this. Firstly the scrutiny on our work was going to be intense and there wasn't to be any hint that our team included enthusiasts.

Second we were hired for our independence and specialist knowledge; someone who had rail industry experience was assigned to us to provide or access any specialist information we needed; any information used or advice given wasn't to be based on someone's hobby. There were further restrictions along the way as well around our methodology which certainly precluded any hobbyist involvement. 

 

All this might now sound unfair. But they were strange and frsught times to say the least! And these diktats were made for good reason. 

 

I should mention that my own return to the hobby came some years later! 

 

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Never worked on the railway, but encountered plenty of colleagues who had woerked in that industry at some stage in their career. Not possible to count now, but I would be confident that an above average proportion were model railway enthusiasts.

 

38 minutes ago, AndyB said:

I can only relate my own experience when leading a specialist team tasked with investigating the causes behind a major incident. This was in the late 90s/ early 2000s. 

 

The first instruction from on high was not to include anyone whose hobby was "railways" whether that was spotting, modeling or any other format. 

This is such a sound principle. I must contacrt my MP with the suggestion that it be applied to 'political accidents'. No enthusiasts for politics permitted in the investigation team.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, AndyB said:

I can only relate my own experience when leading a specialist team tasked with investigating the causes behind a major incident. This was in the late 90s/ early 2000s. 

 

The first instruction from on high was not to include anyone whose hobby was "railways" whether that was spotting, modeling or any other format. 

 

There were a number of reasons for this. Firstly the scrutiny on our work was going to be intense and there wasn't to be any hint that our team included enthusiasts.

Second we were hired for our independence and specialist knowledge; someone who had rail industry experience was assigned to us to provide or access any specialist information we needed; any information used or advice given wasn't to be based on someone's hobby. There were further restrictions along the way as well around our methodology which certainly precluded any hobbyist involvement. 

 

All this might now sound unfair. But they were strange and frsught times to say the least! And these diktats were made for good reason. 

 

I should mention that my own return to the hobby came some years later! 

 

 

 

So how did this body work out whether would be members of this 'specialist team' had a railway hobby, considering many keep it to themselves?

[AndyB]

12 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

So how did this body work out whether would be members of this 'specialist team' had a railway hobby, considering many keep it to themselves?

That's fairly "easy", TBH.

It was based on building trust between the industry customer and myself. And onme knowing my team. I knew my team, having worked closely with them for years. You get to know colleagues' professional expertise as well as their interests outside work. 

[Rugd1022]

On 09/07/2023 at 09:58, Oldddudders said:

The industry was always permeated with enthusiasts at every level, but many chose to keep their powder dry. As a result, you didn't have the conversations you might have wanted, had you known.

 

In the late '60s the reprographic section of the SR Central DMO was pretty basic, and an old man sat in the corner with some primitive device including dish chemicals. I was an occasional customer, and they called him Jack. When he died, due recognition was given to the fact that he had been a leading railway photographer, dating back to late LBSCR days - what could I have learned from him? I think he was H M Madgwick. 

 

My boss as Director, Projects, BRB (and simultaneously Project Director ECML Electrification), held a steam driver's ticket ,and I think was on the footplate on the West Highland circa 1990. 

 

The Project Director, Classes 60 and 92, (among others) turned out to be a modeller using RTR locos and stock. He and I discussed poor conductivity on Lima loco wheels! He had a Grange nameplate in the family name above his hearth. 

 

The BRB's Investment Adviser, later Director of Business Review, the late Andrew Jukes, bought the Eversholt ROSCO with others, and reportedly made £16m on selling it on. He then founded Exactoscale, a pretty niche manufacturer, indicating tht he had substantial knowledge of the hobby and its needs. He had joined BR in the late 80's, having been Project Manager for LT's Central Line Upgrade, and earlier in life working oin Rolls Royce's RB211 engine. 

 

Post of the week that Ian!

 

I started on the railway in September '82 and even now, all these years later am still discovering people in the job I've known for years who have only recently come out of the closet, so to speak. I was 02.00 on call a few weeks ago and got chatting to one of our duty controllers when he called me out to nip down to Wembley to bring a late running 'liner back up country, Whilst waiting for my taxi we chatted for a bit and he happened to mention my brother being passed out recently on 50s for doing Hanson & Hall charter work, I had no idea he knew my brother Mick and it all came out - he was a 50 basher in the '80s and had met Mick on his travels. I mentioned that I'd driven all of them at Old Oak and the enthusiasm in his voice went up another notch! One of our sadly deceased controllers had a thing for the Cambrian and modelled it in 00 gauge, he also spent a lot of time bashing the 50s when they were new on the WCML.

 

There are thirteen drivers and four goundstaff at our depot and all but four of us are 'cranks'. Between us we have quite varied interests - there's me with my GWR / WR bias, two others with a penchant for narrow gauge garden railways and continental stuff, two others who regularly go on photographic trips together in Europe while our youngest and newest recruit models '60s steam and more recent modern image stuff. Another of our drivers is obsessed with 37s while our recently departed roster clerk has had a couple of his small 00 layouts appear in modelling magazines. One of our previous guvnors is in the Diesel Traction Group and passed several drivers out on D1015 for mainline jobs, he's also in the video / dvd covering D1015's return to the mainline at St.Blazey way back in 2002. Another member of the DTG passed me out for driving and has a fetish for diesel hydraulics which is probably at least as bad as mine, as he started as a secondman at Exeter in the early '70s.

 

I've lost count of the number of times I've been at a preserved railway and bumped into drivers and groundstaff from other depots, some of whom you'd think had no interest in the job at all. When it comes down to it, the railway gets under your skin in lots of interesting ways, sometimes it stays with you and sometimes it ebbs away, but somehow it always seems to come back.

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

Post of the week that Ian!

 

I started on the railway in September '82 and even now, all these years later am still discovering people in the job I've known for years who have only recently come out of the closet, so to speak. I was 02.00 on call a few weeks ago and got chatting to one of our duty controllers when he called me out to nip down to Wembley to bring a late running 'liner back up country, Whilst waiting for my taxi we chatted for a bit and he happened to mention my brother being passed out recently on 50s for doing Hanson & Hall charter work, I had no idea he knew my brother Mick and it all came out - he was a 50 basher in the '80s and had met Mick on his travels. I mentioned that I'd driven all of them at Old Oak and the enthusiasm in his voice went up another notch! One of our sadly deceased controllers had a thing for the Cambrian and modelled it in 00 gauge, he also spent a lot of time bashing the 50s when they were new on the WCML.

 

There are thirteen drivers and four goundstaff at our depot and all but four of us are 'cranks'. Between us we have quite varied interests - there's me with my GWR / WR bias, two others with a penchant for narrow gauge garden railways and continental stuff, two others who regularly go on photographic trips together in Europe while our youngest and newest recruit models '60s steam and more recent modern image stuff. Another of our drivers is obsessed with 37s while our recently departed roster clerk has had a couple of his small 00 layouts appear in modelling magazines. One of our previous guvnors is in the Diesel Traction Group and passed several drivers out on D1015 for mainline jobs, he's also in the video / dvd covering D1015's return to the mainline at St.Blazey way back in 2002. Another member of the DTG passed me out for driving and has a fetish for diesel hydraulics which is probably at least as bad as mine, as he started as a secondman at Exeter in the early '70s.

 

I've lost count of the number of times I've been at a preserved railway and bumped into drivers and groundstaff from other depots, some of whom you'd think had no interest in the job at all. When it comes down to it, the railway gets under your skin in lots of interesting ways, sometimes it stays with you and sometimes it ebbs away, but somehow it always seems to come back.

Which is of course, exactly the opposite of what AndyB said!

[Rivercider]

Back in the late 1970s, early on in my railway career, I was given some generally good natured stick about my trainspotting and railway photography. However on the occasions when I took some of my photos in to work

it was surprising how many of my colleagues took an interest. To be fair most of the old hand supervisors that 

worked in the Bristol Area Freight Centre with us were very supportive and encouraging to me.

 

Towards the end of my railway career in the early 2000s there did seem to be more railway enthusiast railway colleagues that I became aware of.

 

Thinking about my personal views as an (ex) railwayman about other enthusiasts, I think it depends on the specific interest of the enthusiast(s) concerned, and how they carry it out. Railways in general is a huge subject, so the interest may be in numbertaking, photography, haulage or route 'bashing', preservation, railway history etc etc.  I have a lot of time for those who are generally 'enthusiastic' about railways. Occasionally find it tiresome to hear or read some of the repetitive banter about the relative merits of certain loco classes over others, especially when they seem to have no understanding of the practical reason why operationally one class of loco might be preferred over another.

 

cheers 

[The Johnster]

Mate of mine, Chris Worth, became a railway modeller after becoming a driver for ATW.  He worked with me for Royal Mail, and we became drinking buddies, and he took on with ATW after leaving RM.  He rapidly became not so much a railway enthusiast but an enthusiastic railwayman, took to it like a duck to orange sauce.  Retired with the demise of that company, he drove Valley Lines 142/3s and 152s.  Knowing that I'm a modeller, he broached the subject up the pub with me one evening about five years ago, saying he was planning retirement and wanted a layout to represent that part of his life.

 

I told him that everything he needed would be available RTR, and that things had moved on since his Triang Hornby days, explained what DCC was, and drew up some basic trackplans for him.  He has a terminus plank with a bay platform and room for a run around loop should he want to run anything else than the dmus, all Peco setrack and RTP.  He's happy with DC control and RTP signals.  The fy is a fiddlestick, which he thinks is a brilliant idea.  It's a display thing more than anything, representing a basic Valleys BLT but not particularly based on a prototype, but he operates it occasionally.

 

I've suggested to him that, in the spirit of the layout, he could get Alan Modulu to do a print of him carrying his drivers' bag, and possibly 'Our Anne', his missis, as a passenger, but he hasn't gone as far as that yet!