WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I've missed a lot of the preceding pages but irrespective of one's views on risk assessment,  various legislation & regulations, the ORR, the Railway Inspectorate, and downright basic railway safety & common sense, the simple fact is that WCRC have shown over the years a continuing cavalier attitude to such things and have come very close to killing people as a result.  I don't think the leopard is suddenly about to change its spots and its present actions seem to me to confirm that. 

Exactly why I don't support them on this. Irrespective of my views on individual issues they do not give the impression of a responsible company. That's something that would be a concern even if they were apparently doing everything they're told to without complaint (it would just be harder to spot).

 

Whatever equipment and rules and so on you've got safety's still a concern if there's a cavalier attitude at work - no amount of technical answers will get around that. And conversely I'd be quite happy without a lot of them but with a company that's got a responsible attitude - even if that company complains publically about them.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

They know what they need to do in order to comply and they have (or can afford to borrow) the money they need to do it (after a loss of £923 600 in their FY end March 2021 in the following two years the company made total retained profits of just over £3.5 million; WCRC has plenty of cash and the controlling group has even more).  incidentally its book value of its locos and rolling stock is only £2.4 million.

 

 

Incidentally as far as its coaching stock fleet is concerned it is many years since I passed Carnforth but it used to give a very good impression of siding accommodation for withdrawn, deteriorating, coaches with a large number sitting there quietly rusting away.  Are they still there and do they count them in their total fleet to be fitted with CDL?

If they've got a lot of unusable non-compliant rolling stock on the balance sheet, I wonder how accurate their valuations are. 

I suspect their auditors won't have much of a clue as to what such assets are really worth.  Maybe their other stock is in better nick?

[adb968008]

45 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If they've got a lot of unusable non-compliant rolling stock on the balance sheet, I wonder how accurate their valuations are. 

I suspect their auditors won't have much of a clue as to what such assets are really worth.  Maybe their other stock is in better nick?

Careful on the assets ownership.

 

A long time back I looked at this, theres a lot of companies here, I think the rolling stock, locos, steam fleet, engineering company and land are all different companies… even Steamtown as a company still exists, and separate businesses for Northern belle, and WHL ops.

 

for example this company owns Galatea and FTW turntable according to its accounts…

NORTH OF ENGLAND HISTORIC RAILWAY TRUST LIMITED

 

Steamtown did c£2.7mn turnover, not bad for a museum that closed to the public 30 years ago… in the charges section it lists a mortgage for 57313/4/5/6 and another for 57601.

 

Good luck finding who owns what… it all rolls up under 1 name.

WILLIAM SMITH (WAKEFIELD) LIMITED

£25mn turnover last year.

 

 

Edited April 11 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Careful on the assets ownership.

 

A long time back I looked at this, theres a lot of companies here, I think the rolling stock, locos, steam fleet, engineering company and land are all different companies… even Steamtown as a company still exists, and separate businesses for Northern belle, and WHL ops.

 

for example this company owns Galatea and FTW turntable according to its accounts…

NORTH OF ENGLAND HISTORIC RAILWAY TRUST LIMITED

 

Steamtown did c£2.7mn turnover, not bad for a museum that closed to the public 30 years ago… in the charges section it lists a mortgage for 57313/4/5/6 and another for 57601.

 

Good luck finding who owns what… it all rolls up under 1 name.

WILLIAM SMITH (WAKEFIELD) LIMITED

£25mn turnover last year.

 

 

Yes - the latter is well worth a look at Companies House (as I did once again earlier today).  The overall financial arrangements of the various  William Smith companies almost put Richard Branson to shame in their financial complexity and intra-company debts and credits within the group.   Mind you the LSlL associated companies' structuring isn't much different!   Hornby is almost simple compared with this lot.

 

Incidentally I see that WCRC  had only four employees at its FY end in 2023, one person fewer than in the previous year.

Edited April 11 by The Stationmaster

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Incidentally I see that WCRC  had only four employees at its FY end in 2023, one person fewer than in the previous year.

They were shown the (unlocked) door....

 

ba dum Tish, thank you, I am availble for booking, see my agent. 😀

[rodent279]

Does that mean they mainly use 0 hours contract staff?

[Gilbert]

1 minute ago, rodent279 said:

Does that mean they mainly use 0 hours contract staff?

I had heard elsewhere that this applies to most of their train staff including drivers - not sure of the actual situation.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Incidentally I see that WCRC  had only four employees at its FY end in 2023, one person fewer than in the previous year.

Poor chap.  Was he knocked over by somebody opening a Mk I door on a moving train?

 

I always saw that situation as a lot worse than somebody opening the door and injuring himself as he leapt out since that was self-inflicted.

[Oldddudders]

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Poor chap.  Was he knocked over by somebody opening a Mk I door on a moving train?

 

I always saw that situation as a lot worse than somebody opening the door and injuring himself as he leapt out since that was self-inflicted.

"A moment's impatience - a lifetime of regret" was the slogan in SR EMU compartments, with a pic of a lady on the platform felled by a prematurely opened door. 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

Does that mean they mainly use 0 hours contract staff?

 

1 hour ago, Gilbert said:

I had heard elsewhere that this applies to most of their train staff including drivers - not sure of the actual situation.

Carnforth Railway and Restoration engineering services lists 159 staff, in 2022 accounts.

 

In the related party disclosures, it says “they handle all the payroll costs for other group companies”.

 

it also operates a pension scheme (assets are independent of the company).

 

I also note this business registered at Helifield station, has overdue accounts in companies house for this year, due December 31st 2023, and a First Gazette notice for compulsory strike-off has been issued.

 

all this is on companies house.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11 by adb968008

[john new]

19 hours ago, Matt37268 said:

If you’ve ever read ‘Railway Adventure’ you’ll find how Mr Rolt makes a comment on about how much a 2 or 3 minute delay in somewhere like Manchester or Birmingham could have a knock on delay at Twywn when trying to arrange a connection with the Talylln.
More recently the same points been made regarding the NYMR with their services to Whitby, if something cocks up there apparently the ripples can be felt back as far as Leeds and Manchester. 

There is an excellent BR era film on YouTube about accumulating delays. Sadly I can’t remember the name so can’t post a YT link.

[pete_mcfarlane]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Reality is WCRC has a humungous amount of stock… way more than 130, perhaps 200..

But a lot of it is rot.. mk1 sleepers, lnw sleeper from steamtown days, RES PCVs used to be at Helifield, abandoned mk2es in Southall.

Some has been stripped for scrap already in recent years.

I wonder if the scrap value of all that rotting stock would pay for CDL on a few coaches?

[nightstar.train]

45 minutes ago, john new said:

There is an excellent BR era film on YouTube about accumulating delays. Sadly I can’t remember the name so can’t post a YT link.

 

Is it this one?

 

 

[Wheatley]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I've missed a lot of the preceding pages

You didn't miss much, we'd already done most of it in the first two dozen pages. Some of it twice. 

[john new]

20 minutes ago, nightstar.train said:

 

Is it this one?

 

 

Yes that’s the one.

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I wonder if the scrap value of all that rotting stock would pay for CDL on a few coaches?

Last time I surfed the Railway Heritage Register Carriage Survey, it appeared that a lot of the Carnforth scrap line was scrapped late last year (I think like the PCVs, many were retained for their bogies alone).  One outcome of this was that there are now only three Mark 1 sleepers remaining in existence.

[Michael Hodgson]

23 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

One outcome of this was that there are now only three Mark 1 sleepers remaining in existence.

 

I was under the impression that the remaining Mk 1 sleepers were used by preserved lines for volunteers dossing for the night, and I would have thought that by now they must have become unfit even for that.  I can't imagine anybody being able to justify restoring them for service in their original role, even with CDL.

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

 

Is it this one?

 

 

Marvellous film, hopefully something similar is shown to staff today.  Two things I noted right at the end; (i) 86s with yellow ends wrapped round to the cab door and (ii) a toilet flushed as the train speeds over the camera!  That's what lineside staff used to be breathing until much too recently.....

[Northmoor]

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

I was under the impression that the remaining Mk 1 sleepers were used by preserved lines for volunteers dossing for the night, and I would have thought that by now they must have become unfit even for that.  I can't imagine anybody being able to justify restoring them for service in their original role, even with CDL.

I think that Peak Rail's example is (or was) the only one where effort has been made to retain the original features where possible.  No-one was going to retain them as runners, but as historic vehicles some need to be retained.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

I was under the impression that the remaining Mk 1 sleepers were used by preserved lines for volunteers dossing for the night, and I would have thought that by now they must have become unfit even for that.  I can't imagine anybody being able to justify restoring them for service in their original role, even with CDL.

I wonder what ORR would make of the compartment droplights. As I recall, the window slid down to level with the washbasin cover and you could basically sit with your whole body out of the window.

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Does that mean they mainly use 0 hours contract staff?

Yes - but to a certain extent* this is justified because of the nature of the charter train business - which aside from the Jacobite are generally ‘one offs’ scattered throughout the year between a huge variety of places scattered all over the UK.

 

* Note the emphasis on the word ‘certain’ - that doesn’t mean zero hours contracts are a good thing as a whole and the way the Government has let them be abused by their private sector / outsourcing mates to increase shareholder payouts while low paid workers themselves suffer is disgraceful.

[ruggedpeak]

The Telegraph has just regurgutated the WCRC line and headlined it "Steam trains face end of the line in Britain after row over slamming doors",

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/11/steam-trains-face-end-line-britain-row-over-slamming-doors/     paywall

 

The usual WCRC #stuff but concludes:

 

A Department for Transport spokesman said: “The ORR is the independent rail safety regulator, and it would therefore be inappropriate for the department or ministers to intervene in their decision to refuse a further exemption to West Coast Railways, which was upheld by the High Court.”

 

 

Edited April 11 by ruggedpeak

[david.hill64]

I have just been reading the Telegraph article. The view of the Telegraph readers is that the nanny state is getting in the way and that WCRC should be allowed to get on with it.

[BoD]

19 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

I have just been reading the Telegraph article. The view of the Telegraph readers is that the nanny state is getting in the way and that WCRC should be allowed to get on with it.

Well there’s a surprise.

[BoD]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I wonder what ORR would make of the compartment droplights. As I recall, the window slid down to level with the washbasin cover and you could basically sit with your whole body out of the window.

Easier than going down the corridor to the somewhat cramped toilet.