Proposed new competitor for Eurostar

[Michael Hodgson]

10 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

Quite, if structured properly they could pick up in the North and the Midlands on their way to the continent. Obviously it would all be far easier if we were still in the EU and Schengen, or like Switzerland just in Schengen. Save lots of faffing around, red tape, queues and the loss to the economy. Ah well, a chap can dream .....

Anything's possible ..... the chap who lost the EU referendum might come back as Foreign Secretary!

[KingEdwardII]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

if we were still in the EU and Schengen,

We have never been in Schengen, even when we were in the EU. There have always been passport checks when travelling between UK and EU - they have just got a bit more stringent when entering the EU since Brexit.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Michael Hodgson]

19 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

We have never been in Schengen, even when we were in the EU. There have always been passport checks when travelling between UK and EU - they have just got a bit more stringent when entering the EU since Brexit.

 

Yours, Mike.

I never said we were.  It was Neil who said that.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

34 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

Quite, if structured properly they could pick up in the North and the Midlands on their way to the continent. Obviously it would all be far easier if we were still in the EU and Schengen, or like Switzerland just in Schengen. Save lots of faffing around, red tape, queues and the loss to the economy. Ah well, a chap can dream .....

Don't forget security. As has been pointed out several times in this thread already, it is probably security that takes the most time to go through when boarding a Eurostar service, not border control or customs. Security (probably) wouldn't go away even if Britain, France and Belgium became a single country.

 

I expect that a limited service of one or two trains a day from Manchester to Paris, Birmingham to Paris and London to Cologne with no intermediate stops would be viable today, but I find it very difficult to imagine how such a thing would be arranged, whatever the operator, since I can't think that just one or two trains a day would support the necessary infrastructure or staff. Perhaps Curzon Street could become an international gateway for the midlands and north with several trains a day, but Curzon Street doesn't look like it will get the connections to the wider transport network to make it an attractive proposition.

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

As the old adage states "there is no smoke without a fire" , It seem now with Virgin Trains making noises several companies exploring providing services

 

The tunnel owned states with signaling upgrades more trains can use the tunnel both in frequency and type of train

 

Why not use Ebbsfleet and or Ashford. plus more use if the likes of Lille station or other Termini ?

 

There are always the half full brigade who seem to delight in explaining what cannot be done, but where there is a will a way usually is found. There are many good reasons to increase traffic flow through the tunnel, the environment is one of the biggest. As for Eurostar of course they want a monopoly but no doubt the tunnel owners also want to maximize revenue

 

It seems we are moving away from "if" and getting closer to "when"  

 

Just today its being reported that the French look likely to amend the 90 day visa rules for UK nationals, saying time to stop punishing the UK for Brexit as we are now "special" friends. Money talks !! as does votes when chalets and gites remain empty 

The first thing to bear in mind is that we are not talking about a normal passenger train, or even normal international passenger train, operation.  tThere are additional requirements in respect of Channel Tunnel security which will add to costs - for example a manifest for every train has to be supplied to the Tunnel operator before that train enters the Tunnel.  And, of course various security and luggage etc checks need to be carried out before passengers are allowed to travel through the Tunnel - a further addition to operational costs.  

 

I can't really see the British and French Govts changing their legislation to relax those requirememnts especially in current conditions.    But these things are really no more than a need for certain procedures, carried out to a particular level (which I presume is still subject to Govt audit etc) which create an additional operational cost to take into account  

 

Much more complex  is what happens in respect of running trains through the Tunnel.  That depends on -

 

1.  The present Usage Agreement between the owners of Eurostar (basically SNCF) and the Channel Tunnel..  This works in two ways,

a. To what extent are unused higher speed paths still paid for by Eurostar and therefore available to them (through the minimum payment)?

b. The extent to which Eurostar are prepared to give up any such paths which would inevitably mean a change to the Usage Agreement and a reduction in the minimum amount Eurostar pay to the Tunnel (and would new operators be happy to pick up the Tunnel's revenue lost through a change of the Usage Agreement and reduction of the minimum payment?), and 

c.  What paths Eurostar would be prepared to cede to another operator and - probably even more important at peak times - would it be prepared to accept domestication of its Tunnel running times in order to release the 3rd path a flight (of two trains) currently takes up.   Bearing in mind that could mean a major timetable recast for Eurostar to take account of the wider impact of the longer running time through the Tunnel.

 

Thus it isn't just a case of a new operator having a simple access agreement with the Tunnel.   Access agreements with the two rail  networks should be more straightforward except at anye proposed termini.  CTRL is running a good way below its designed capacity although obviously at certain times it will be running at pretty near that figure.  The same can probably still be said of LGV Nord although again at certain times there will be no spare capacity.    St Pancras is already short on international train capacity at various times of day while Gare du Nord is n doubt in a similar position.

 

The significant thing to keep in mind is that any new operator will want to achieve maximum revenue in order to make its operation profitable.  That might imply the need to run their trains at the time of maximum demand - which is when capacity is already likely to be fully used.   The alternative of course is to go for a lower fare offer aiming to make its revenue from very high load factors by targetting the daytime gaps in the Eurostar service which means concentration largely on the leisure market.  The latter might fit better with 'beyond Paris operations

 

Beynd London (and Paris) will introduce lots of headaches because of the security requirements.  Eurostar had. a way of catering for them but it was very expensive.  The big question would inevitably be 'is there a market?' and I think depends very much on passengers' willingness to transfer from air travel and its current low fares.  Overnight Sleeper trains?  Very unlikely I think, creating suitable rolling stock will be very expensive and the pathing through the Tunnel is a nightmare if you are trying to hit marketable UK evening departure/morning arrival times.

[jjb1970]

On Virgin, as much as I dislike the bearded saint and his propensity for self-promotion and asinine whinging about BA and others, I have always had good experiences when flying Virgin Atlantic and the WCML nose dived from a pretty good service under Virgin Trains to utterly awful under Avanti. On the other hand, Virgin Trains was more Stagecoach than Virgin (I didn't have a high opinion of their owners either) and I'm not sure who the majority sharehilder in Virgin Atlantic is now, at one time Delta had a big stake. Either way, it kind of demonstrates that having the right leadership in place and letting them get on with it is what really matters. Get the right leadership and they will lead (who'd have thought it) and get the best out of staff, get the right people in the right positions and see to it that things are done properly regardless of who owns it (providing the owner lets them do their job).

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Neil said:

 

Regional Eurostars back in favour? Leeds, Manchester and/or Birmingham?

No link between HS1 and HS2…

 

so it would be slow down the wcml… which brings us back to Plane vs Train… Ryanair wins everytime.

If looking for a terminal outside of St Pancras, Camden Jn could maybe feed something.. but ive no idea what or where that could be practical… Milton Keynes ?

 

The obvious one for a BudgetStar is Stratford intl… it even offers passengers a HS2 connection via Stratford and the Elizabeth Line in around 45mins inc changes… indeed for Canary Wharf it would be better than St Pancras.

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by adb968008

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

So how is my trip to the continental family's home town going to go? StP-Amsterdam in 12 days time. I am actually more concerned about the quality of the breakfast outbound than anything else.

[adb968008]

6 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

So how is my trip to the continental family's home town going to go? StP-Amsterdam in 12 days time. I am actually more concerned about the quality of the breakfast outbound than anything else.

Eurostar food is minging.

tbh it would be better if they just didnt serve food.

 

The food in the waiting area at St P isnt much better.

Tbh though Amsterdam food is only good if you look very carefully.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by adb968008

[Jeremy Cumberland]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

No link between HS1 and HS2…

 

so it would be slow down the wcml… which brings us back to Plane vs Train… Ryanair wins everytime.

 

 

Birmingham New Street to Paris Nord in under 4 hours would be attractive to many people, I am sure. Not everyone lives in London, and not everyone wants to fly everywhere. Under 4 hours ought to be achievable, but of course there's no prospect of running a Channel Tunnel service from New Street, and there might not be the capacity in Paris either.

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

Eurostar food is minging.

 

 

Largely because from the start Eurostar adopted the airline catering model of having pre-prepared food which was simply heated up on on board microwaves. That minimises the amount of space required for catering facilities on board the train and also simplifies servicing. 

 

Even British rail was moving in that direction towards the end of its exsistence and although some of the newly privatised operators did try and keep standards up, over the past decade the been counters at the DfT have successfully put an end to that.

 

7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

The food in the waiting area at St P isnt much better.

 

 

To be fair their is precious little room for anything better thanks to the cramped nature of the St Pancras terminal

[adb968008]

6 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Birmingham New Street to Paris Nord in under 4 hours would be attractive to many people, I am sure. Not everyone lives in London, and not everyone wants to fly everywhere. Under 4 hours ought to be achievable, but of course there's no prospect of running a Channel Tunnel service from New Street, and there might not be the capacity in Paris either.

Dont think it would be under 4 hours though, unless it was non-stop… but would Birmingham generate enough at that ?

 

BNS, BHX and Coventry might, but your time stacks up.

Maybe a weekly summer Disney train might work ? Thats a convienient one for families, even if its a bit wasteful on customs resources etc.. i’d imagine a Lille style, all off, scan and reboard would be needed.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

I remember the Mk.3 modular buffet refurb in the late 80's, although it didn't look much to most enthusiasts that was a huge change in catering ops, though they still retained a proper dining service.

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I remember the Mk.3 modular buffet refurb in the late 80's, although it didn't look much to most enthusiasts that was a huge change in catering ops, though they still retained a proper dining service.

The business class (or whatever its called this week) offering is airline feeding troughs.

Their next step down (changes to someform of upsell economy) didnt have food last time i tried it,

Ecomomy the buffet will sell you an edible microwaved  croque monsieur.

 

Food is better on Paris runs than the other routes… but thats setting a pretty low bar.

 

However if your on a friday or saturday very late night Paris to London, the wine and champagne happily flows… they dont waste any open bottles and theres not always many on board… ive had a few nights I didnt recall getting off when we got back.

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Birmingham New Street to Paris Nord in under 4 hours would be attractive to many people,

 

But how many exactly?

 

• As has been explained more than once safety considerations (i.e. to ensure that if it becomes immobilised inside the channel tunnel at least one door can be guaranteed to be within 20m of a emergency evacuation cross passage) mean that the train needs to be a very long one (800 odd seats)
• UK border rules mandate that said train can ONLY be filled with passengers bound for Europe and all checks must be done at fixed border installations at stations (on board checks officially being deemed to risky / easy to evade by the Home Office - though I personally suspect it has far more to do with on board checks being a more expensive option to bankroll)
• UK law also specifically prohibits any subsidy being given to international travel so all costs (train leases, track access agreements, the creation of fenced off 'secure' international terminals and platforms, etc) will have to be paid for from fare revenue
• And without a HS1-HS2 connection being built (were anyone to propose it then its going to be decades before it actually became available for traffic) any such service will have to stick to the classic WCML which not only imposes a significant time penalty it means specific custom built trains to fit UK loading gauge - plus there is the consideration of whether stations like Birmingham New Street can handle the very long trains anyway.

 

 

Sorry to burst peoples bubble but the ONLY way through trains from Birmingham etc to Europe will be viable is if

 

(1) The UK relaxes its border rules and allows domestic and international passengers to mix on the same train as far as London (be that St Pancras or Startford)

AND

(2) A dedicated link is built between HS1 and HS2

 

OR

 

(1) The UK Government massively subsides said service plus is willing to give up paths on HS2 which could be used to carry far more domestic passengers than said international services will carry.

AND

(2) A dedicated link is built between HS1 and HS2

 

Therefore reports in the press / media of tycoons or other people claiming they are going to start up international rail services are totally worthless and have zero credibility to anyone who has a brain! Members of  this forum would do well to stop pretending they have any credence based on the current rules / regulations / laws which govern international rail travel in the UK.

Edited November 14, 2023 by phil-b259

[Jeremy Cumberland]

21 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Dont think it would be under 4 hours though, unless it was non-stop… but would Birmingham generate enough at that ?

Anything other than non-stop doesn't make sense to me. Birmingham by itself won't generate the traffic, but the Midlands and North could probably fill four trains a day from Birmingham.

 

Perhaps you don't realise the catchment area of Manchester and Birmingham airports. People are already used to travelling to get to an international boarding point. Paris is a popular destination. Arrival in a well-connected part of the city centre is a definite plus, as would be rail connections at this end so that people can leave their cars at home.

 

But key to it is having all the necessary facilities at the boarding point. Having everyone get off at some security/border post would be enough to put most people off. As I said, there is no chance of having the necessary facilities at New Street, and looking ahead to Curzon Street it seems unlikely to have the necessary connectivity (and there is not the slightest indication of any wish to create an international station there anyway).

 

22 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

But how many exactly?

A few thousand a day, I should think. Just to Paris; I don't think the demand would be there for Brussels or Amsterdam.

 

Like you, I don't how services from outside London can be achieved, and it looks to me that these supposed alternative operators (who don't appear to be looking at anything other than London anyway) are just engaged in a bit of kite flying. It isn't just border controls either: security might well be the bigger problem. But I think the demand would be there, if only someone could work out the how.

[nightstar.train]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

So how is my trip to the continental family's home town going to go? StP-Amsterdam in 12 days time. I am actually more concerned about the quality of the breakfast outbound than anything else.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Eurostar food is minging.

tbh it would be better if they just didnt serve food.

 

The food in the waiting area at St P isnt much better.

Tbh though Amsterdam food is only good if you look very carefully.

 

 

 

Counter point to this. I travelled on Eurostar in Premium Economy back in April. The food I had was a cold offering, but was utterly delicious. 

Didn't try the catering at St P, but it was very very busy, so I'd certainly suggest eating somewhere else first rather than relying on that. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Tbh though Amsterdam food is only good if you look very carefully.

Advantage of family guidance to hand. It's the Indo-Chinees I truly go for, starting with 'Lumpia semarang'. (Alternatively Loenpia, Loempia, Loompia; it's had all these spellings since my first encounter when 4 years old, but all equally yummy when done well.)

 

And Pannekoeken met speck en stroop for breakfast, and I am sure I can fit in Erwtensoep if it is conveniently cold enough for some rib-sticking warmth.  I am coming back so overweight...

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

No link between HS1 and HS2…

 

so it would be slow down the wcml… which brings us back to Plane vs Train… Ryanair wins everytime.

If looking for a terminal outside of St Pancras, Camden Jn could maybe feed something.. but ive no idea what or where that could be practical… Milton Keynes ?

 

The obvious one for a BudgetStar is Stratford intl… it even offers passengers a HS2 connection via Stratford and the Elizabeth Line in around 45mins inc changes… indeed for Canary Wharf it would be better than St Pancras.

 

When considering what might replace Regional Eurostar (with a chance of actually making some money instead of pouring it away) we investigated Watford Jcn as a possible.  It was quite a strong contender and, albeit by re-purposing, an international 'station' could have been fitted in  although the potential market would basically have been WCML plus places with local access to Watford.  In my view anything 'beyond London' mustn't be too far 'beyond' because of the impact on journey times and the time cost of threading London to get to CTRL/HS1

 

I agree that Stratford would be logical place to use from a 'hinterland' viewpoint although there would be some operational challenges to sort.  I don't think the latter would be insoluble but they might be expensive.  Plus there would - as at anywhere other than St Pancras - be the added, unshared, costs of security, Customs, and Border Force.

 

Another, operationally more cost effective, option, would be to include some Lille turnrounds as was the. case in the original. Eurostar trainplan.  Connecting with the various services vis the jonction route would provide a market which might help to smooth the path with SNCF plus wider connections into France and Belgium would be available via the station just down the road.  While teh LGV station isn't much to write home about Lille  - unless it has declined markedly - could also be a destination in itself with plenty of eateries to serve most tastes and fairly good local shopping.

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

.........Sorry to burst peoples bubble but the ONLY way through trains from Birmingham etc to Europe will be viable is if

 

(1) The UK relaxes its border rules and allows domestic and international passengers to mix on the same train as far as London (be that St Pancras or Startford)

AND

(2) A dedicated link is built between HS1 and HS2

 

 

Phil has hit this one right on the head.

 

1. Border controls are not going to be relaxed in the current climate and with mainland Europe also contemplating action to strengthen their own external borders.

 

2. There is no longer any possibility of a HS1 - HS2 link within London. The existing HS2 plans cannot be altered at this late stage. That horse bolted years ago.

 

In addition, as Phil also mentioned, there will be no trains capable of running any service off HS1, onto the NR classic network.

The cost of ordering a tiny fleet of bespoke, "classic compatible" trains, that also meet the CT criteria, would be prohibitively expensive.

It's highly unlikely than any operator would order such trains.

 

 

.

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[The Stationmaster]

41 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

Phil has hit this one right on the head.

 

1. Border controls are not going to be relaxed in the current climate and with mainland Europe also contemplating action to strengthen their own external borders.

 

2. There is no longer any possibility of a HS1 - HS2 link within London. The existing HS2 plans cannot be altered at this late stage. That horse bolted years ago.

 

In addition, as Phil also mentioned, there will be no trains capable of running any service off HS1, onto the NR classic network.

The cost of ordering a tiny fleet of bespoke, "classic compatible" trains, that also meet the CT criteria, would be prohibitively expensive.

It's highly unlikely than any operator would order such trains.

 

 

.

 

Except that border controls have nothing to do with not allowing domestic UK passengers to travel on trains that will pass through the Channel Tunnel.  That is part of the Channel Tunnel security rules which require passengers, and their luggage, on trains which will pass through the Tunnel to be fully security checked.   Therefore it is not permitted to mix domestic passengers with cross-Channel passengers unless the domestic passengers, and any luggage etc, are also security checked.

 

SNCF were able to mix domestic and cross-Channel on some 'beyond Paris' trains because all the passengers, with their luggage, would be detrained at Lille to carry out the checks and the train could be checked at the same time  That wasn't really possible on 'beyond London' trains because of potential difficulty in segregating domestic and cross-Channel passengers with the security checks being carried out on the train.  

 

Transec gave every appearance of being far more 'difficult' that was ever the case with either Customs and excuse or the immigration control people.  For example Transec required security checks even if passengers were to go no further than part way through the Tunnel  and then return without even crossing the border between England and France even if said passengers had full security clearance!

[lmsforever]

5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

On Virgin, as much as I dislike the bearded saint and his propensity for self-promotion and asinine whinging about BA and others, I have always had good experiences when flying Virgin Atlantic and the WCML nose dived from a pretty good service under Virgin Trains to utterly awful under Avanti. On the other hand, Virgin Trains was more Stagecoach than Virgin (I didn't have a high opinion of their owners either) and I'm not sure who the majority sharehilder in Virgin Atlantic is now, at one time Delta had a big stake. Either way, it kind of demonstrates that having the right leadership in place and letting them get on with it is what really matters. Get the right leadership and they will lead (who'd have thought it) and get the best out of staff, get the right people in the right positions and see to it that things are done properly regardless of who owns it (providing the owner lets them do their job).

I agree about Virgin Atlantic, Virgin  Rail enjoyed travelling on both always felt that  Branson had a real effect on the staff in the way they reacted with the public   .Agree about Avanti load of rubbish. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 14/11/2023 at 16:58, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

I can fit in Erwtensoep if it is conveniently cold enough for some rib-sticking warmth.  I am coming back so overweight...

The weather having cheerfully obliged with frostiness, I not only got the Erwtensoep, but also sunny days to get about, joy unbounded.

 

My overweight was fixed by Eurostar, they broke their train, and we had to go in some mk2ish carriages as far as the Belgian border. There we were stopped and then had significant exercise running up and down underpass staircases with much baggage, in oder to board a scheduled local service visiting every town on the way to Bruxelles, where we were ordered* to find ourselves accomodation for the night and to be back at the Eurostar facility bright and early in the morning to get a seat.

 

After this we were thus delivered to St P. to enjoy the limited local train service out of KX, caused by the delay landing us on day 1 of the strike...

 

* By someone tactless at Eurostar Bruxelles. Another of their staff - who were overall above reproach for working hard to try to bring order out of chaos - promptly leapt into the breach (after a brief groan) by suggesting that if all who could do so would try to find accomodation, it would mean that those who could not might be found accomodation in much less than four hours. (Happily I observed that the young mum with a very small baby whom we had helped onto the train at Amsterdam was given immediate priority assistance and swiftly escorted away.)

[roythebus1]

Yes, I heard on BBC Radio Kent that the wires had "fallen down onto" an Amsterdam-bound Eurostar service. The train was delayed over 5 hours before being towed back to St.Pancras.

 

I don't know if it was the train that brought the wires down, bad weather ditto, or "Bladerunner" from the anti-ULEZ group in London had taken umbrage to cameras in the area. It seems to have had repurcussions for the rest of the day..

 

The other thing these "expansionists" are forgetting is drivers' route knowledge, and how long one can be expected to be wide awake driving at TGV speeds. I'd suggest about 4 and a half hours would be the maximum. Presumably the current fleet of train have the facility to change drivers on the move so that wouldn't prove too difficult. I gather lodging in Amsterdam is preferred by the train crew to lodging in Brussels.

Edited December 1, 2023 by roythebus1

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

13 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

...I gather lodging in Amsterdam is preferred by the train crew to lodging in Brussels.

While it is over 20 years aince I was previously in Brussels, (and this time only saw it in the dark!) this is unsurprising as the immediate area in which Midi/Suid station is located looks much like a war zone, and judged solely by the taxi fare and hotel pricing it's monstrously expensive. And there's probably no lovely Indonesian food to enjoy.