HS125's to Mexico.

[Reorte]

6 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

I shudder to think of the high-speed dual carriageways I once cycled along when young...

I've cycled along short stretches of dual carriageway, very occasionally, that weren't easy to avoid, but it's definitely something that I really don't want to have to do, and I didn't like it at all. A risk I was prepared to accept for an otherwise pleasant bike ride, but nevertheless a real, concerning one. Not sure I would do it again though. I guess that's some indication of where the border of my risk tolerance lies.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Reorte

[PaulRhB]

1 minute ago, Reorte said:

But "mad" implies you'd be dicing with death.

The people making the decisions would be mad to risk being held to account for not upgrading to safer options. 
On a personal level I don’t mind the IEP seats on a short journey but if I was travelling up the East or West Coast I would take the same seat pad with me that I use for concerts and other events where a cold stone, concrete or soggy grass seat are the other options. 
The HST’s are being retired, the decisions have been made so the comments about the crappy seats are the issue to address rather than trying to turn back the clock. Having rather too close experience of one crash and the detail and quite graphic descriptions of the Carmont one first hand from someone there I’ve made my decision that I’d rather live a bit longer if I have a choice. 

[MarkC]

You may also find that the meeja should take some of the flak for the demise of the HSTs - ranting on about how Joe Public "Is having to suffer using trains that are more than 40 years old". That sort of thing is lapped up by Joe Public, who then, naturally, want to get shiny new trains...

[PaulRhB]

2 minutes ago, MarkC said:

who then, naturally, want to get shiny new trains...

 . . . to moan about. 

[MarkC]

13 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

 . . . to moan about. 

Oh yes - encouraged by, you guessed it, the meeja...

[cctransuk]

45 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

The people making the decisions would be mad to risk being held to account for not upgrading to safer options. 
On a personal level I don’t mind the IEP seats on a short journey but if I was travelling up the East or West Coast I would take the same seat pad with me that I use for concerts and other events where a cold stone, concrete or soggy grass seat are the other options. 
The HST’s are being retired, the decisions have been made so the comments about the crappy seats are the issue to address rather than trying to turn back the clock. Having rather too close experience of one crash and the detail and quite graphic descriptions of the Carmont one first hand from someone there I’ve made my decision that I’d rather live a bit longer if I have a choice. 

 

There is no such thing as absolute safety - you can eliminate  some tiny risks, but there will still be risk, however infinitesimal.

 

I would submit that, here in the UK, we have already arrived at the minimum risk achievable in rail transport - there'll always be another risk coming along that we are not yet aware of.

 

Compared to the risk we accept when going anywhere near road transport, rail risk is tiny. If we persist in throwing out the baby with the bathwater, rail transport will become financially unviable.

 

By trying to eliminate all risk in their profession, rail staff risk the ultimate viability of the rail industry.

 

As I said, sh*t happens everywhere, to everyone!

 

CJI.

[PaulRhB]

18 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

There is no such thing as absolute safety - you can eliminate  some tiny risks, but there will still be risk, however infinitesimal.

Yep but there is an increase in safety between the two trains, no one’s claiming the newer ones will save everyone but in the only major crash the similar type design stayed together better without any loss of passenger or cab space. As I said above the cab, (which broke away at Carmont and was engulfed in stone at Ufton, the coaches at Ladbroke Grove also lost integrity in the passenger cell), vestibules and passenger compartments were all severely compromised at Carmont. 
Compare that to the Pendilino at Grayrigg where there was still a casualty but the coaches and cab maintained survival space much better. 
All I’m saying is the newer designs took those known issues into the design and are simulated and in the case of the Pendilino proved to be safer. That’s progress, fit out the interior with the same spec seating and you’d only have the looks creating moans.  
 

 

[cctransuk]

6 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Yep but there is an increase in safety between the two trains, no one’s claiming the newer ones will save everyone but in the only major crash the similar type design stayed together better without any loss of passenger or cab space. As I said above the cab, (which broke away at Carmont and was engulfed in stone at Ufton, the coaches at Ladbroke Grove also lost integrity in the passenger cell), vestibules and passenger compartments were all severely compromised at Carmont. 
Compare that to the Pendilino at Grayrigg where there was still a casualty but the coaches and cab maintained survival space much better. 
All I’m saying is the newer designs took those known issues into the design and are simulated and in the case of the Pendilino proved to be safer. That’s progress, fit out the interior with the same spec seating and you’d only have the looks creating moans.  
 

 

 

All accepted - but we are, nonetheless, talking about a minimal increase in safety, under specific conditions.

 

Against which, we have to factor the cost of disposing of stock with a viable extended life, offering a degree of customer comfort greater than the expensive replacements.

 

Can the UK rail industry really afford to follow this high-minded pursuit of the unachievable?

 

I don't think so!

 

(I also don't think that I can usefully add more to this debate).

 

CJI.

[Reorte]

30 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

That’s progress

 

I'm with Arthur Dent - I've gone off progress.

[PaulRhB]

12 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I'm with Arthur Dent - I've gone off progress.

Yeah I agree with that regularly 🤣

[johnofwessex]

Can I make a more important point.

 

Irrespective of how good - or otherwise they are HST's are now 45 years old.

 

Yes, they have been updated to meet modern standards - new engines, power doors & retention toilets, BUT clearly issues like fatigue and corrosion will only get worse over time to say nothing of things like the electrical equipment becoming dated and hard to source parts for.

 

Yes, they can be refurbished, but its new wine in old skins. 

[Reorte]

25 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

Can I make a more important point.

 

Irrespective of how good - or otherwise they are HST's are now 45 years old.

 

Yes, they have been updated to meet modern standards - new engines, power doors & retention toilets, BUT clearly issues like fatigue and corrosion will only get worse over time to say nothing of things like the electrical equipment becoming dated and hard to source parts for.

 

Yes, they can be refurbished, but its new wine in old skins. 

Completely agree with this, it's why unfortunately the time has come to say goodbye to them - nothing lasts forever. They've not only done 45 years of work, it's 45 years of high intensity work too.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Reorte

[frobisher]

5 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

The objections largely come from Scotland and are more a case of objecting to being given the castoffs of those nasty Sassenachs..

 

Technically, apart from one route, it's the Sassenachs that have ended up with them... ;)

[david.hill64]

On 09/11/2023 at 19:11, PaulRhB said:

The people making the decisions would be mad to risk being held to account for not upgrading to safer options. 
 

Actually the people making the decisions are protected under English law if they don't upgrade to safer options provided that the safer options are not reasonably practicable (ie cost too much). They would be remiss if they hadn't considered the safer option, but do not need to adopt it.

 

People may well remember the clamour post Ladbroke Grove for widespread adoption of ATP rather than TPWS. The enquiry agreed that TPWS was a reasonably practicable option whilst ATP, as an overlay to the existing signalling system, was not. Since then there has not been a single fatality on UK rail that could have been prevented if ATP were in place. So, pending installation of ETCS, we may very well conclude that not upgrading to the safer option - which would have taken money from the system that has been better used on other safety measures - was the correct decision.

 

HST's were/are a fabulous train, but their time has come.

[johnofwessex]

2 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

...............................

 

HST's were/are a fabulous train, but their time has come.

 

Indeed

[adb968008]

Having seen what happened at c5mph at NL depot, between a HST and an Azuma… i’ll take the HST…

new skirt and off it goes.

The azuma needed nearly a year of rebuilding after it tried to rotate the coaches on its coupling.

 

sorry not convinced on IEP, it already had decades worth of equivalent corrosion issues in a critical place in less than 5.

 

Who’s kidding who ?

 

feels like getting rid of the old, to force in belief and trust the only alternative.

Similar thing happened was spun by the government with  the SA80 rifle.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by adb968008

[Steadfast]

8 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Having seen what happened at c5mph at NL depot, between a HST and an Azuma… i’ll take the HST…

new skirt and off it goes.

The azuma needed nearly a year of rebuilding after it tried to rotate the coaches on its coupling.

Much as I hate IETs, it was a bit more than a new skirt on the HST! It never ran again.

Link from Flickr.

 

 

The HSTs have done us proud, and for me what is a crying shame is that the IET is not a patch on what went before. As a passenger, yes everyone moans about the seats, but the ride is atrocious, they're worse than Voyagers along the sea wall, the catering has been dumbed down, the interior ambience is non existent and the saloon lighting is so bright it's ridiculous.

 

It's interesting hearing complaints from the drivers too when I've been upbthe front on them. General consensus, they have some good features, but lots of problems.

 

Whilst it's not the fault of the IET themselves, but relevant to the discussion they are becoming more and more overcrowded too as the DfT led removal of HSTs before replacement stock is available sees them redeployed on the Cardiff - Penzance corridor. This means as you bang across pointwork at 125 mph you're probably being thrown into another standing passenger, rather than watching your drink sway violently while seated. 

 

It comes to something when the most comfortable trains in the area are 30 year old 158s!

 

Jo

[adb968008]

26 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

Much as I hate IETs, it was a bit more than a new skirt on the HST! It never ran again.

Link from Flickr.

 

 

The HSTs have done us proud, and for me what is a crying shame is that the IET is not a patch on what went before. As a passenger, yes everyone moans about the seats, but the ride is atrocious, they're worse than Voyagers along the sea wall, the catering has been dumbed down, the interior ambience is non existent and the saloon lighting is so bright it's ridiculous.

 

It's interesting hearing complaints from the drivers too when I've been upbthe front on them. General consensus, they have some good features, but lots of problems.

 

Whilst it's not the fault of the IET themselves, but relevant to the discussion they are becoming more and more overcrowded too as the DfT led removal of HSTs before replacement stock is available sees them redeployed on the Cardiff - Penzance corridor. This means as you bang across pointwork at 125 mph you're probably being thrown into another standing passenger, rather than watching your drink sway violently while seated. 

 

It comes to something when the most comfortable trains in the area are 30 year old 158s!

 

Jo

The only reason the HST wasnt coming back is because it was one of the last ones left in service with LNER.

 

that would have totally come back, even a few years earlier.

 

Flagwaving the HST only distracts from this…

 

 

if you were in the HST passengers would have felt a shunt, the Azuma you were quite definitely being rotated off the track at a very low speed.

 

 

There was a rush to hide the front of the 800 from the press, where as the HST they didnt care about..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-50517028

But the 800 came off considerably worse.

I wonder how that will handle an incident at speed, looking at that image above, i’m tending to think concertina and Potters Bar style incident, or a Harrow style pile up… god forbid.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by adb968008

[Steadfast]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

The only reason the HST wasnt coming back is because it was one of the last ones left in service with LNER.

 

that would have totally come back, even a few years earlier.

 

Flagwaving the HST only distracts from this…

I don't disagree in rhe slightest, but that's a new cab at minimum on the HST

 

Jo

[PaulRhB]

34 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Having seen what happened at c5mph at NL depot, between a HST and an Azuma… i’ll take the HST…

new skirt and off it goes.

The azuma needed nearly a year of rebuilding after it tried to rotate the coaches on its coupling.

 

sorry not convinced on IEP, it already had decades worth of equivalent corrosion issues in a critical place in less than 5.

Where did you see it was corrosion? The info we heard at work was Azuma sideways displacement was because the impact wasn’t big enough to crush the drawboxes but did damage them along with the nose crash structure so all the derailed coaches had to have work on the drawboxes. 

[Steadfast]

6 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Where did you see it was corrosion? The info we heard at work was Azuma sideways displacement was because the impact wasn’t big enough to crush the drawboxes but did damage them along with the nose crash structure so all the derailed coaches had to have work on the drawboxes. 

I assuming we're talking about a separate incident, the metal fatigue cracks in the yaw damper mounts at a guess

 

Jo

[adb968008]

13 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

I assuming we're talking about a separate incident, the metal fatigue cracks in the yaw damper mounts at a guess

 

Jo

Yes

 

Separate incidents, plus this…

 

Wasnt it established that the metal grade used in some of these coaches sourced from Kobe steel in Japan was not of the grade specified too ?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41591284

 

so..

corrosion, poor grade steel and an incident rotating on a coupling at low speed.

lots of apologists and defenders… you have to really considering how much money has been sunk into these.

 

yet HSTs are the ones being demonised for safety.

 

Do you reckon we will be riding on an 800 in the year 2060 ?

if HSTs are so bad why are we selling them, knowing they are deficient in a sale makes one complicit to any event ?

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by adb968008

[PaulRhB]

11 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

I assuming we're talking about a separate incident, the metal fatigue cracks in the yaw damper mounts at a guess

 

Jo

Yes that’s not corrosion it’s fatigue cracking across the whole fleet and nothing to do with the collision rebuild quoted 😉

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Having seen what happened at c5mph at NL depot, between a HST and an Azuma… i’ll take the HST…

new skirt and off it goes.

The azuma needed nearly a year of rebuilding after it tried to rotate the coaches on its coupling.

 

[adb968008]

1 minute ago, PaulRhB said:

Yes that’s not corrosion it’s fatigue cracking across the whole fleet and nothing to do with the collision rebuild quoted 😉

 

 

No its both..

 

Quote

Hitachi’s solution to the various fatigue and corrosion cracking problems in the bogie bolster area of the 800 Series vehicles began test evaluation in January. 

Sorry to deflate you.

 

https://www.modernrailways.com/article/800-series-hitachis-remedial-mods-break-cover

 

[david.hill64]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Wasnt it established that the metal grade used in some of these coaches sourced from Kobe steel in Japan was not of the grade specified too ?

 

Yes, but you don't expect reputable Japanese companies to falsify QA documentation. I have a lot of sympathy with Hitachi.