RMweb Gold ruggedpeak Posted December 25, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 25, 2023 On 13/11/2023 at 10:07, PaulRhB said: The HST’s aren’t being demonised 😉 They have however been found to be less capable in a crash compared to newer, if less comfy, stock. For its day the HST is superb and at lower speeds still adequate but in an extreme crash like Carmont and Ufton they lost significant structural integrity that contributed to deaths by not containing people inside. Compare that to the performance of the Pendilino at Grayrigg where it stayed structurally intact so lessened the injuries. I don't agree that conclusions can be drawn given the dramatically different incidents and dynamics, particularly at Carmont. Pendo's should in theory be safer than HST's as a more modern design, but unless or until someone crashes one into a landslide that then flings coaches off the side of a bridge down a short almost vertical drop with a sudden stop that swings coaches around we won't know for sure. As for 8xx's, I can only hope they are not involved in a big 'off' as I think the outcome will be horrific, but I may be catastrophising. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted December 25, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 25, 2023 3 hours ago, ruggedpeak said: but unless or until someone crashes one into a landslide that then flings coaches off the side of a bridge down a short almost vertical drop with a sudden stop that swings coaches around we won't know for sure. The points at Grayrigg caused a similar displacement if you look back at the pictures and seven coaches were totally off the track. Only one, the leading powercar separated though and flipped round. The couplings staying intact lessen the violence significantly compared to what we know happened at Carmont and is featured in the report. Similar happened at Ufton and Ladbroke and it’s those that lead to the improvement in drawbox design on modern units. 3 hours ago, ruggedpeak said: As for 8xx's, I can only hope they are not involved in a big 'off' as I think the outcome will be horrific, Based on what evidence though? The low speed crash with the HST wasn’t fast enough to collapse the drawboxes as designed in a higher speed crash. We raised eyebrows when it happened but we got the detail of why it displaced sideways and that’s the same collapsable system as used in cars effectively. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted December 25, 2023 Share Posted December 25, 2023 18 minutes ago, PaulRhB said: The points at Grayrigg caused a similar displacement if you look back at the pictures and seven coaches were totally off the track. Only one, the leading powercar separated though and flipped round. The couplings staying intact lessen the violence significantly compared to what we know happened at Carmont and is featured in the report. Similar happened at Ufton and Ladbroke and it’s those that lead to the improvement in drawbox design on modern units. Based on what evidence though? The low speed crash with the HST wasn’t fast enough to collapse the drawboxes as designed in a higher speed crash. We raised eyebrows when it happened but we got the detail of why it displaced sideways and that’s the same collapsable system as used in cars effectively. Agreed. The Neville Hill crash was in the 'sour spot' if I can call it that. Not quite enough energy to collapse the energy-absorbing devices in the drawbars, but enough to cause a derailment. I did the analysis... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
009 micro modeller Posted December 25, 2023 Share Posted December 25, 2023 9 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said: This was posted on YT yesterday... AAR couplers have now been fitted to the ends of the power cars, though there is a rather pronounced size difference between the loco and the HST set! Is this just to allow rescue by a loco in the event of failure or are they planning to routinely drag them for some reason? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Marsbar Posted December 25, 2023 Share Posted December 25, 2023 25 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said: Is this just to allow rescue by a loco in the event of failure or are they planning to routinely drag them for some reason? Apparently for rescue loco use only. From what I've read elsewhere, the line the HST's are used on seems to have an average scheduled speed of 50 kph (!) so they aren't exactly going to be thrashed to pieces! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hexagon789 Posted December 25, 2023 Share Posted December 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Johann Marsbar said: Apparently for rescue loco use only. From what I've read elsewhere, the line the HST's are used on seems to have an average scheduled speed of 50 kph (!) so they aren't exactly going to be thrashed to pieces! 100km/h linespeed currently reputedly. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
009 micro modeller Posted December 25, 2023 Share Posted December 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, hexagon789 said: 100km/h linespeed currently reputedly. Presumably 50km/h is average including scheduled stops etc.? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted December 25, 2023 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted December 25, 2023 Apparently the intention is/was to run them at speeds up to 160 kph (99mph), still not overstretching them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hexagon789 Posted December 25, 2023 Share Posted December 25, 2023 16 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said: Presumably 50km/h is average including scheduled stops etc.? Seems reasonable for such a maximum speed, though I've no idea of how many stops there are nor the general topography of the route but 30-35 or so mph averages on 60mph lines is about usual here for example, albeit usually on branches or regional lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hexagon789 Posted December 25, 2023 Share Posted December 25, 2023 1 minute ago, PhilJ W said: Apparently the intention is/was to run them at speeds up to 160 kph (99mph), still not overstretching them. I had read that as well, but certainly at the moment the maximum operating speed is only 100km/h. It is my understanding that before the railways were privatised and passenger trains axed, the maximum on Mexican mainlines was apparently only 110km/h (a 'metricated' 70mph dating from the steam era supposedly). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 10 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said: Apparently for rescue loco use only. The No.1 end of the XPT power cars could be fitted with a temporary knuckle coupler for this purpose. But the No.2 end and the trailers had knuckle couplers as standard. The trailers were designed to be loco-hauled if required, although only locos without buffers or buffing plate could couple to them. This never happened in revenue service and only happened on a few occasions for empty stock movements. 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesperus Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 You'd need a few tins of XXXX after lifting a temporary knuckle coupling into place in the outback! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted February 12 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 12 https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/more-british-high-speed-trains-head-to-mexico/ 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taigatrommel Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 On 26/12/2023 at 05:21, DavidB-AU said: But the No.2 end and the trailers had knuckle couplers as standard. The trailers were designed to be loco-hauled if required, although only locos without buffers or buffing plate could couple to them. This never happened in revenue service and only happened on a few occasions for empty stock movements. I'm very pleased then, to have caught this movement back in 2010. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyPenguin Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) On 13/11/2023 at 08:54, adb968008 said: Having seen what happened at c5mph at NL depot, between a HST and an Azuma… i’ll take the HST… Is this not a little bit like comparing a slow speed head on between a current build mediumn sized car (with crumple zones & airbags) and a forty year old Land Rover ? Edited February 12 by chiefpenguin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 11 hours ago, MJI said: https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/more-british-high-speed-trains-head-to-mexico/ Seems our cast-offs are highly valued elsewhere! Good to know we can afford to be charitable! (I know all about the crashworthiness argument - IMHO it's a red herring)! CJI. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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