Z21 and Itrain

[Stevio778]

and I need one of these as well YD8116 16-fold Switching Decoder

[melmerby]

21 minutes ago, Stevio778 said:

YD8116 16-fold Switching Decoder

That will control 8 points.

How many points will you have?

 

[Stevio778]

6 minutes ago, melmerby said:

That will control 8 points.

How many points will you have?

 

6 to start.

[WIMorrison]

7 hours ago, Stevio778 said:

This point motor has another 2 switches in it so I'll probly use one for the frog and one for the feedback

 

Personally I wouldn't bother with position feedback for the turnouts, it isn't really required and will just cause you additional complexities and confusion whilst building the layout. If you feel that you want to add it later then you can, however I suspect that you have realised by the time you want to install positional feedback that it isn't needed and you wont bother 😉

[Stevio778]

So are you saying I no longer need YD6016LN-GND for the feedback now?

[WIMorrison]

if you don't do positional feedback, then no, you don't need one

Edited October 18, 2023 by WIMorrison

[Stevio778]

Is positional feedback different than the current sensor I need for track occupancy?

Is that not positional feedback?

Ta

Edited October 18, 2023 by Stevio778

[WIMorrison]

You talked about using one of the switches on the MP5 for the positional feedback of the turnout blades, to do that you need the YD6016LN-GND, for track occupation you need current sensing which is the YD6016LN-CS.

[Stevio778]

Thanks for that Iain so I'll cancel the ground sensor and keep the YD8116 16-fold Switching Decoder

Cheers mate!

[Stevio778]

Does anyone know if I can work a Dapol semaphore signal with one of the spare relay switches on the MP5?

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/products/2l-001-004-n-gauge-junction-signal-gwr-rt-hand-with-two-arms-shorter-post-rt

Edited October 18, 2023 by Stevio778

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Personally I wouldn't bother with position feedback for the turnouts, it isn't really required and will just cause you additional complexities and confusion whilst building the layout. If you feel that you want to add it later then you can, however I suspect that you have realised by the time you want to install positional feedback that it isn't needed and you wont bother 😉

I’ll second that.  I made provision for point position feedback and haven’t done anything with it yet.  I may well do something with it ‘because I can’ when I’m looking for extra things to do with the layout, but I haven’t missed having it thus far.

Paul.

[melmerby]

Thirded

I too haven't bothered and haven't missed it.

 

Maybe if there is some reason why a point hasn't turned when "told" to by the layout software, it would stop the route being set and a train running through it when set incorrectly?

But I haven't had that happen, since I've been using Tortoises (and a few MP-1s)

 

I did experience occasional misfires when using Seeps but quickly abandoned those for something better and also with a couple of the original Cobalts, which had a habit of sticking at one end or other.

[melmerby]

52 minutes ago, Stevio778 said:

Does anyone know if I can work a Dapol semaphore signal with one of the spare relay switches on the MP5?

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/products/2l-001-004-n-gauge-junction-signal-gwr-rt-hand-with-two-arms-shorter-post-rt

Yes.

The signal just uses a basic single changeover switch.

 

EDIT, don't use the output direct from the DCC switch decoder as it has voltage on it, it needs to be a volt free switch.

Edited October 18, 2023 by melmerby

[melmerby]

If you are going to be running the layout with iTrain, why not make the signals operate from the program?

 

I have done that with the two junction signals I have so far installed so that they only operate when the program (in my case Traincontroller) reserves the route  for the train and return to normal as soon as the train enters the block following the signal.

It could be done electrically by using a simple relay connected to one of the spare outputs of a point decoder, although in my case I made a decoder specifically to control 4 signals using an Arduino Nano and a few components.

[Stevio778]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

If you are going to be running the layout with iTrain, why not make the signals operate from the program?

 

I have done that with the two junction signals I have so far installed so that they only operate when the program (in my case Traincontroller) reserves the route  for the train and return to normal as soon as the train enters the block following the signal.

It could be done electrically by using a simple relay connected to one of the spare outputs of a point decoder, although in my case I made a decoder specifically to control 4 signals using an Arduino Nano and a few components.

Hi Keith that is what I'm going to do. That's why I'm getting iTrain. But I thought everything had to go through the Z21 first?

Ta!

[melmerby]

16 minutes ago, Stevio778 said:

Hi Keith that is what I'm going to do. That's why I'm getting iTrain. But I thought everything had to go through the Z21 first?

Ta!

But in that case you wouldn't drive the signals directly off a point motor as all that will do is act as an indication of which way the points are set, nothing to do with trains and occupancy.

 

You said this:

15 hours ago, Stevio778 said:

Does anyone know if I can work a Dapol semaphore signal with one of the spare relay switches on the MP5?

I said yes to that as you can but it is dependent on point setting.

 

For proper automation of signals, each arm needs a DCC address, which you would have if you drive the signal, via small 12v relays from spare outputs on a point decoder.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by melmerby

[WIMorrison]

To echo what Keith says, and perhaps expand.

 

You use iTrain to control all aspects of the layout, trains, turnouts and signals, and you don't need to define anything within the Z21 - all it is doing is providing the power to the layout and passing the instructions provided by iTrain to the layout. Because those instructions are the same as would be provided by the phone app, or a maus, you can also provide those same instructions manually to the layout - again all the Z21 does is pass those instructions over to the layout. If you have told a loco to go faster then the Z21 will take the incoming message, relay it onto the DCC track output and the instruction will be enacted by the loco decoder. The same would happen for a turnout moto, or a signal. 

 

The benefits of letting iTrain control the signalling is that all the signals will be set by the iTrain logic and will be accurate for what you are doing that that time. If the train is stopping it will be red, if the train is being allowed to start, or continue, it will be green and if a caution is being issued it will be yellow. iTrain will also change the turnouts correctly for the route the train is travelling on.

 

Please don't fall into the trap that so many people do and think you have to control the signals or turnouts manually, you don't - iTrain will do a much better job that you can 😉

[Stevio778]

5 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

To echo what Keith says, and perhaps expand.

 

You use iTrain to control all aspects of the layout, trains, turnouts and signals, and you don't need to define anything within the Z21 - all it is doing is providing the power to the layout and passing the instructions provided by iTrain to the layout. Because those instructions are the same as would be provided by the phone app, or a maus, you can also provide those same instructions manually to the layout - again all the Z21 does is pass those instructions over to the layout. If you have told a loco to go faster then the Z21 will take the incoming message, relay it onto the DCC track output and the instruction will be enacted by the loco decoder. The same would happen for a turnout moto, or a signal. 

 

The benefits of letting iTrain control the signalling is that all the signals will be set by the iTrain logic and will be accurate for what you are doing that that time. If the train is stopping it will be red, if the train is being allowed to start, or continue, it will be green and if a caution is being issued it will be yellow. iTrain will also change the turnouts correctly for the route the train is travelling on.

 

Please don't fall into the trap that so many people do and think you have to control the signals or turnouts manually, you don't - iTrain will do a much better job that you can 😉

"You use iTrain to control all aspects of the layout, trains, turnouts and signals, and you don't need to define anything within the Z21 - all it is doing is providing the power to the layout and passing the instructions provided by iTrain to the layout"  Thanks Iain that's become a lot clearer.

[jaym481]

For the Dapol signals I use the Train-Tech decoders specifically designed for them, as all of the other options were either overcomplicated (for me) or wouldn't allow iTrain to change them as Iain described above. I also believe Dapol has the T-T decoders available with their own branding.

[Stevio778]

Thanks Jaym So I'm going to need just one of these

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/train-tech-sc4-dual-Dapol-servo-semaphore-signal-dcc-controller.html?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8YCQ8v-5ggMVgZeDBx3qyggTEAQYASABEgIBfPD_BwE

 

For one of these? 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/Dapol-4l-001-006-gwr-junction-lh-2-arms-lh-short-post-signal?variant=35450504544328&currency=GBP&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google%2Bshopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIo_Tz5IC6ggMVhwaLCh2mXwa3EAQYBiABEgLrFvD_BwE

[melmerby]

IMHO that unit is overpriced for just 2 signal arms.

 

If you any good at electronics you could build your own for a quarter of the cost and drive twice as many arms.

 

 

[melmerby]

This will control 4 arms and is £23.55 (plus post)

 

I think it might be a kit.(?)

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by melmerby

[WIMorrison]

11 minutes ago, melmerby said:

This will control 4 arms and is £23.55 (plus post)

 

I think it might be a kit.(?)

 

 

Sadly he doesn't have the relay kit on his eBay shop

[melmerby]

Another.

This also controls relays

https://chesterfield-models.co.uk/product/prima/

But does not include any relays.

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Sadly he doesn't have the relay kit on his eBay shop

But you can buy direct.

https://www.dcc-decoders.com/cart-page?appSectionParams={"origin"%3A"cart-popup"}&currency=GBP