Eurotunnel pricing themselves out of the market

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Ive been on at least 3 Eurostars that broke the law then.

 

Ive also been on “the next available train, take any seat” on a Eurostar from Paris, and on another occasion, simply arrived early, and walked on board an earlier train, found a seat and got comfy… in Paris its really not a hard thing to do To get an earlier ride home… once beyond security, immigration, no ones checking tickets at the platform except in  “premium” tickets…

 

That said St P is no better, once they call the platform its everyman for themselves, again no one checks at the ramp or the platform.. its just a herd mentality to board… just premium seats at the door get checked.

 

 

 

With respect while you may have just ‘walked up and picked any seat’ you are ignoring the fact that before departure You HAD a seat!
 

IIRC it’s not important which seat you occupy on the train, what matters is you have one.

 

Admittedly this is not so much about passenger safety - but it’s about controlling train numbers so Eurotunnel know EXACTLY how many people will be on each international train in case of emergencies plus make it easier for border forces to prevent anyone evading security procedures. 

 

Thats no different to certain airlines operate where you don’t get to pick your seat in advance and have to fight to be first in line to board to secure the one you want. 
 

In all cases the train won’t leave or the plane won’t leave the stand unless the crew are 100% sure all persons on board have a seat because the rules make it crystal clear standing passengers are not permitted during take off / landing (for planes) or for transit through the Channel tunnel (trains)

 

[phil-b259]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

Sure you will read a story of the dad that drove from Devon to Ashford, but its better than the story of the passenger that died in Gare Du Nord penniless for 3 days waiting the next available seat, with no money for a hotel… .

 

The official answer (back up by the UK governments policy) is that international travel is a luxury purchase and not a life essential. 

 

As such travellers ( be it on Eurostar, international ferries or airlines) are told they should ALLWAYS get travel insurance which provides adequate cover for all eventualities. Failing to do that and getting stranded without money for food / accomadation would be regarded as a self inflicted problem and not the responsibility of the travel operator. 

 

In the case of the water ingress issue that is quite clearly an infrastructure problem (not ‘Force Majure’) so any additional expenses incurred by travellers should be recoverable via their travel insurance.

 

This contrasts with domestic travel where travel insurance is regarded as ‘optional’ by Government and as such there is a grater onus on passenger care  - not least an obligation on the part of train operators to get you to your destination come hell or high water.

 

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

The official answer (back up by the UK governments policy) is that international travel is a luxury purchase and not a life essential. 

 

As such travellers ( be it on Eurostar, international ferries or airlines) are told they should ALLWAYS get travel insurance which provides adequate cover for all eventualities. Failing to do that and getting stranded without money for food / accomadation would be regarded as a self inflicted problem and not the responsibility of the travel operator. 

 

In the case of the water ingress issue that is quite clearly an infrastructure problem (not ‘Force Majure’) so any additional expenses incurred by travellers should be recoverable via their travel insurance.

 

This contrasts with domestic travel where travel insurance is regarded as ‘optional’ by Government and as such there is a grater onus on passenger care  - not least an obligation on the part of train operators to get you to your destination come hell or high water.

 

Agreed, but unfortunately insurance companies dont provide the credit card upfront.

 

And if its your son / daughter travelling they may need your help on your insurance, whilst your over here, and they are over there.

 

What you ignored though, was aviation law of duty to passengers, which is not reliant on travel insurance… All airlines have to provide it… this is an unfair advantage to Eurostar who does not.

 

However youngsters are generally more hardy, its the elderly who need more care… but if the station is chaotic with everyone from everywhere because Eurostar is doing nothing, its a harder stretch for the staff to find the those who need the help the most… if the youngsters find the gruelling path and are able to navigate to it, it reduces pressure on the resources to help those who really need it….

 

80/20 rule.. if 80% have a choice they will find their own path of least resistance and take it… leaving you with 20% to solve…

But if theres no choice, your more likely to have the 80% to resolve whilst the 20% sort themselves.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

16 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Since ES have effectively closed the "International" bit of Ashford International, have they had to go through any sort of closure procedure?  As taxpayer who helped pay for it, I'm interested.

The UK Government is Crystal clear that Eurostar is an open access and a strictly 100% private sector operation with NONE OF ITS FACILITIES being regulated by UK rules as regards passenger provision*.

 

Just as airlines are free to drop airports whenever they wish (even if that leaves the airport with no passenger services) Eurostar have a completely free hand as to which locations they chose to serve.

 

Also its important to note that just as airlines do not own airports, the facilities used by Eurostar in the UK are owned by a completely separate company and Eurostar (which I repeat is a 100% private open access operator) is not going to pay for facilities it doesn’t want.

 

(* IIUC The same would be true if Lumo opened a station which was only served by them - it’s only when franchised TOCs come into play do things become regulated)

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

We need 2 tunnels obviously!

 

Mike.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

With respect while you may have just ‘walked up and picked any seat’ you are ignoring the fact that before departure You HAD a seat!
 

IIRC it’s not important which seat you occupy on the train, what matters is you have one.

 

Admittedly this is not so much about passenger safety - but it’s about controlling train numbers so Eurotunnel know EXACTLY how many people will be on each international train in case of emergencies plus make it easier for border forces to prevent anyone evading security procedures. 

 

Thats no different to certain airlines operate where you don’t get to pick your seat in advance and have to fight to be first in line to board to secure the one you want. 
 

In all cases the train won’t leave or the plane won’t leave the stand unless the crew are 100% sure all persons on board have a seat because the rules make it crystal clear standing passengers are not permitted during take off / landing (for planes) or for transit through the Channel tunnel (trains)

 

I have been on a E* which wasn't allowed the traverse the Tunnel, possibly due to a TVM failure. The driver changed ends, and took the train back to Ashford. Here, we were transferred  to loaded train that had been held for us. As both trains had been well-loaded, there were a lot of standing passengers.; the chef-du-train apologised for the over-crowding, and compensation forms were given out on arrival at GdN

[roythebus1]

The reason airlines book you to a specific seat is in the event of "an incident", you are told to fasten your seat belt. when the rescue services pick up the remains of the passengers, it's easier to identify bodies strapped to numbered seats to put it in a nutshell.

 

Many years back I had a day out from Waterloo to Brux. The chef du trein said we needed to get luggage labels and use them on our luggage. I asked him why and the reason was that they recently had an "incident" in the tunnel and passengers had to be detrained. The problem was the following few days trying to tie up passengers with their luggage. I thanked him and said I'm an ex railwayman, he sent me and the mrs along for a first class upgrade, very nice of him. :)

[jjb1970]

I remember working in the Netherlands offshore sector in the mid-90's. Every four week rotation I'd fly from Newcastle to Amsterdam, to be driven to Den Helder for the helicopter out to the location. Every trip (literally) my bag never arrived, they seemed to take bags only going to Amsterdam first (the Fokker F100 seemed incapable of taking a full load of passengers and their luggage) on the basis the other bags were going on to the four corners and it was simple to deliver a bag within the Netherlands later in the evening or the next day. When I told them they'd need to get space on the next helicopter (or supply vessel) for the bags their faces dropped through the floor. 'Oh, that's a problem', yes and it's your problem, here's the name of the agent in Den Helder who can assist with the arrangements. In fairness they always did send the bags out on the next days helicopter.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

We need 2 tunnels obviously!

 

Mike.

We need a road tunnel.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

6 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I think it makes more sense to implement the airline model for Eurostar. The train company would have to provide accommodation or alternative routing.

They did this on 30th November* when they broke the Amsterdam Eurostar supposed to operate the afternoon departure to StP. We eventually limped to the Belgian border on a very slow train, were denied entry and had to transfer to a scheduled stopping B-train, (the slowest train I have been on since the 1960s) to B-Midi. (I did debate the moment we were told at Amsterdam 'no Eurostar' taking the next train to Schipol and flying - via Australia if those were the only seats available - and having the fun of subsequently arguing about the insurance claim.

 

*Well sort of, those who could were told to book themselves a hotel and come back as near to 7am as possible, while the staff escorting us - uniformly excellent it must be said - sorted out those in difficulty. We got back 'early early' and boarded a Midi-StP service. Of course Eurostar having delayed us a day we had the additional delights of 'reduced timetable' from KX on December 1st.

 

Compared to the wife and I being stranded at night in the bush 18 miles from Bulawayo with lions audibly present; or in an airport with a local unadvertised war going on outside: overall performance 'not so bad'.

[Northmoor]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

As I said, i’m not seeing much empathy or compassion towards people using railways… its just a culture of processing peanuts in a machine thats decades out of date….

I agree and funnily enough it seems to be something that has got worse (contrary to expectations) since the private sector got involved in the industry.  It suggests not enough operational skills but plenty of retailing skills at the top, creating a mindest that if all trains are cancelled, you can just offer people free coffee or a 50% off voucher and all will be well. 

Not being able to get home is NOT the same as the shop running out of your favourite breakfast cereal.

Edited January 3 by Northmoor

[EddieB]

19 hours ago, cessna152towser said:

It would have been a Friday morning in April 2002 , because some lines were closed due to a signalling control centre fault, and after a wait of around 20 to 30 minutes at Kensington Olympia we went via Nunhead and Catford, somewhat slowly and following a stopping service, resulting in a Paris arrival 2 hours late and missing the TGV to Lausanne on which we had reservations.    We travelled on a later TGV which was packed with workers going home for the weekend.    We stood in the vestibule as far as Dijon where a lot of passengers alighted and we were able to find seats for the remainder of the journey.

Thank you for that information.  I can't be sure of the date as I only noted the set number and therefore cannot distinguish from empty moves to and from North Pole - but it would have been in the Summer of 2001.  (18th July seems most likely).

 

At least there was a back up plan available - the inconvenience of a missed connection against a full service cancellation...

[Tom Burnham]

In 2019 we'd booked to go to Brussels from Ashford on one of the few trains that still stopped there.  We caught a very early train from Staplehurst which gave time for a cancellation on Southeastern.  On arrival at the Eurostar reception, we were told the Brussels train wasn't stopping there and we could go by SE high speed to Ebbsfleet and get on the Eurostar there.  We just about made it - us and a few other passengers were whisked through check- in at the last minute.  The train was one of the newer Eurostar sets which at that time weren't able to use the platform tracks at Ashford so presumably it was a late substitution for the rostered original type train.

There was quite a lot of money spent on upgrading the signalling to allow the newer trains to stop at Ashford which has seen almost no use. Kent County Council made a contribution I believe which makes the lack of Eurostar services from anywhere in the county even more galling for a KCC Council tax payer.

Also, just as we were boarding the SE train to Ebbsfleet, there was a ping as a text arrived from Eurostar telling us to go to Ebbsfleet.  We'd have had no chance by car from Ashford to Ebbsfleet, so just as well we decided not to drive and leave the car in the multistorey next to Ashford International!

[Enterprisingwestern]

3 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

or in an airport with a local unadvertised war going on outside: overall performance 'not so bad'.

 

Well, don't use Liverpool or Leeds/Bradford again then!

 

Mike.

[RichardT]

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

It suggests not enough operational skills but plenty of retailing skills at the top,

And too many managers who think in airline terms. Particularly affects Eurostar but the disease is spreading (see LNER floating plans for train “check-in” - an idea inherited from the bearded tax-dodger and which completely ignores that long-distance trains don’t just serve the end points but also provide intermediate journeys.)

 

After awful experiences in 2022 with Eurostar and then Le Shuttle we no longer bother.  We fly/ferry from Newcastle or Teesside to Amsterdam and plug into the continental rail system there.

 

RichardT

Edited January 3 by RichardT
Wrong name

[jjb1970]

The thing is, as others have highlighted, Eurostar is closer to airlines than normal trains in many ways and it'd be better for passengers if Eurostar was treated like airlines in terms of certain statutory rights. Passengers have to go through security and immigration controls and safety requirements are very different.  I have had plenty of cause to whinge about airlines over the years but they've always done what was necessary to get me where I needed to be. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

Well, don't use Liverpool or Leeds/Bradford again then!

There's trains for those!

 

Start singing 'South of the the Border, down Mexico way' keep going and you will be heading in the right direction.

[roythebus1]

The advantage of airline pilots over train drivers is that airline pilots don't have to know the road! LHR closed? We'll follow the maps to LGW. That's fogbound too? Lydd just down the road, we've got the charts for that inout Ian Allan book of European Airports to help us.

 

As for having a road tunnel, one of the crackpot suggestions was for a joint road/rail tunnel, close the road for 10 minutes every hour to let a train through. And have queues back to Maidstone every day along the M20 while people queue at the toll booths just like they do these days when there's a problem.

Edited January 3 by roythebus1

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

10 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

The advantage of airline pilots over train drivers is that airline pilots don't have to know the road...

Actually the whole system is very advantageous. It's only the stations, signalling kit and aircraft that have to be built, 'the road' is in place and requires no maintenance at all. If aviation operation can be made genuinely environment degradation neutral, there's a good case for limiting passenger rail to relatively short journeys mostly within urban areas. Better let the French know...(Much the same 'road comes free' applies to maritime operations.)

[RichardT]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

If aviation operation can be made genuinely environment degradation neutral, there's a good case for limiting passenger rail to relatively short journeys mostly within urban areas.

<checks calendar>
😳

RT

[adb968008]

14 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

There's trains for those!

 

Start singing 'South of the the Border, down Mexico way' keep going and you will be heading in the right direction.

At least in Mexico you will get a HST and mk3’s.

Edited January 4 by adb968008

[Ron Ron Ron]

5 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&amp;D said:

.........It's only the stations, signalling kit and aircraft that have to be built, 'the road' is in place and requires no maintenance at all. ........

 

(my Bold)

Oh how wrong you are.

That road costs a lot of money to maintain, operate and constantly update, adapt and evolve.

 

 

.

[The Stationmaster]

On 03/01/2024 at 01:01, Ron Ron Ron said:

Eurostar are, or rather were, only a customer at Ashford International.

It’s not their station.

The station is under the ownership of HS1 Ltd, who have a 30 year lease to own and operate the HS1 infrastructure.

That includes the HS1 line and the 4 stations along its route, this side of the English Channel.

SouthEastern manage Ashford International, on behalf of HS1 Ltd.

Network Rail (High Speed) manage the other 3 stations (St. Pancras Int., Stratford Int. and Ebbsfleet Int.), as well as the HS1 rail infrastructure, on behalf of HS1 Ltd.

 

 

 

.

Catford was an official diversionary pooute and even had a booked service over it - in one direction only (inbound train) to waterloo) in order to keep SNCF Drivers familiar with the route.  UK and SNCB Drivers went over it on a Roioute Refresher move.

 

There was a booked ECS from Waterloo to Kensington and back on Friday afternoons but that was solely to clear a platform at waterloo to accommodate and turn round a following arrival.

[Ron Ron Ron]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Catford was an official diversionary pooute and even had a booked service over it - in one direction only (inbound train) to waterloo) in order to keep SNCF Drivers familiar with the route.  UK and SNCB Drivers went over it on a Roioute Refresher move.

 

There was a booked ECS from Waterloo to Kensington and back on Friday afternoons but that was solely to clear a platform at waterloo to accommodate and turn round a following arrival.

 

I'm not sure why you've quoted me, on a completely different and unrelated aspect Mike?

Did you quote the wrong post?

 

 

.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

19 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Oh how wrong you are.

That road costs a lot of money to maintain, operate and constantly update, adapt and evolve

I'd love to meet someone that believes they maintain, operate etc. the atmosphere.

 

The traffic control system for aviation, yes that's costly, analogous to the signalling of a railway. But the huge 'missing' expense in aviation compared to terrestrial transport is no physical infrastructure to maintain for the vehicles to mechanically operate in while in flight between airports.