Eurotunnel pricing themselves out of the market

[roythebus1]

Being a former railwayman and always trying to use the train when I can, I used to go to Europe quite often in the course of my business repairing old London buses. I've also got a holiday chalet in the Ardennes which I used to visit several times a year. So much so that I used to get 2 books of Frequent Traveller tickets which was in effext 10 journeys paid for up front @ £40 a journey. Given that "most' departures were deemed "pek times" there was often a £20 surcharge. that was fine as I live about 15 minutes form the tunnel and the journey time of 35 minutes was excellent when it ran as it should.

 

I still have a few journeys left from the pre-covid era which Eurotunnel honoured until the end of 2022. So this year I needed to go to europe again and found no more Frequent Traveller tickets were on offer. a quick look on their website seemed to have the cheapest fare during the night was £136 and during the day £168 each way. Clearly this was a struggle despite me and boat travel not combining very well!! I took the plunge and looked at ferry fares online. the cheapest on there was P&O at about £58 each way, Irish Ferries @ £68 each way and DFDS @ £78 each way. I plumped for the Irish Ferries fare of £68 eah way plus a £12 add-on to go in the "executive lounge" where I could sit in relative peace and quiet for the crossing with meals and drinks provided. I could have gone cheaper with P&O but my trade union principles wouldn't let me support a firm that treated its staff so abysmally a couple of years ago.

 

Quite how Eurotunnel expect anyone to afford their fares is a mystery. The"Flexible" ticket with priority boarding is now £325 each way! And with their normal fares more than double tht of the ferries I doubt i'll be using the tunnel in the near future.

[jjb1970]

I don't think it's just Eurotunnel. I fly a lot (far too much really) and I find air fares are still way above what they were before the pandemic. Given the carnage wrought by the pandemic on some sectors and the measures used to survive it's not surprising but it doesn't help when faced with some eye popping fares.

[fulton]

I also use Eurotunnel frequently, now rebranded LeShuttle, with two return trips booked in October, prices have gone up, like almost everything, at the moment the speed and convenience still make it the best option for myself, I think the trains are showing their age, I wonder when reliability begins to suffer.

[Bernard Lamb]

We used to use it twice a year for short trips. One day trip and one overnight, mainly for shopping.

The current fares make that a non starter, besides the effect of that other business.

Benard

[adb968008]

A lot of airlines scrapped aircraft, post pandemic the capacity isnt there.

if everyone wants a ticket, but youve shrunk down and dont have the space….up goes the price.

Sadly this is how the UK has been since 2008 and why its lagged so far behind the rest of the world.. there wasnt enough investment in the 2010’s, it dissapeared after Brexit and the extra capacity died in Covid.

 

Now With high interest rates it will be a long time before new capacity is invested in to come to increase it.

 

A lot of people espouse a lifestyle of less, this is what it looks like… at least in the UK.

Other countries face the same, but at least with the advantage of investing through the 2010’s and dodging the impact of 2016… of course Eastern Europe has exploited this to the max and grown such a bubble they are accelerating beyond everyone, outside China & India.

[Foulounoux]

We have been using eurotunnel since 1995 when we got engaged in the Loire valley  (got the date right this time)

 

So have been in pre frequent traveller days, frequent traveller for many years and likewise had to revert to full price travel this year 

 

First observation despite all the  we won't use ET unless you bring back FT posts on social media ET remains busy

Second much more of the traffic is freight

Third published data shows volumes are up

 

Therefore commercially why would they discount fares when demand is still so high 

 

This summer I couldn't even book an outbound leg midweek with a refundable std fare so had to book flexiplus 

Glad we did as even on a Wednesday it was crowded

Coming back French douane escargot mode meant pre security we were queuing so held in the terminal car park .... nudge to shop maybe

 

 

After French douane was empty and straight to boarding 

 

This set me thinking 

With FT I would never have considered upgrading to Flexiplus 

Without FT the incremental cost of Flexiplus makes it more attractive to upgrade 

 

 

 

Btw the navette refurbishment is due to restart was postponed due to covid 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Foulounoux
Clarity

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

A lot of airlines scrapped aircraft, post pandemic the capacity isnt there.

if everyone wants a ticket, but youve shrunk down and dont have the space….up goes the price.

 

 

There hasn't been a reduction in Le shuttle capacity though, unless there are more shuttle vehicles needing maintenance and repair these days, due to age and very high usage.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

.....Sadly this is how the UK has been since 2008 and why its lagged so far behind the rest of the world.. there wasn't enough investment in the 2010’s,....

 

......Other countries face the same, but at least with the advantage of investing through the 2010’s ......

 

Well the German's certainly didn't invest much in their infrastructure during that period, hence the crumbling railway and road infrastructure that has caused so much criticism domestIcally.

 

 

.

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

There hasn't been a reduction in Le shuttle capacity though, unless there are more shuttle vehicles needing maintenance and repair these days, due to age and very high usage.

 

but if your priced off a plane, what is plan B for getting off this rock ?

The tunnel of course.

if the tunnel is hobbled with extra brexit bureacracy, then its less productive.. leads to higher overheads, and hence higher prices… add in extra demand from those cannot afford to fly then your inflation becomes hyper.. which is what we are seeing,

 

4 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

Well the German's certainly didn't invest much in their infrastructure during that period, hence the crumbling railway and road infrastructure that has caused so much criticism domestIcally.

 

France too has hardly been stellar, but both countries whilst not investing as much, have suffered less because of the events of 2008 and 2016, before Covid came and delivered the coup de gras.

 

Britains been winging it for a decade. Unfortunately the frayed old rope is breaking, and we cant afford to replace it.

 

What separates us from Argentina and Zimbabwe isnt very much, just 1 word… confidence. If the market loses it, then its game over. For years weve played a game of tax, inflation and currency, but right now we are playing all the cards at once..

last week the £ lost a cent to the $ because the markets fretted inflation was easing and interest rates wouldn't rise.. what does devaluing the. £ do… raises inflation. We are being played.

 

Thats why we are going to be a high tax, high inflation, high interest rate, low growth economy for a decade until weve inflated enough away and paid enough back to get headroom to manoeuvre ourselves instead by Goldmans et al… in other words 2008-2018 all over again, but back then with the European Unions market to help us, now its a rival against us.

25 years of   Stagnation is going to make us very much a poor relation in the global neighbourhood.

The economy is  only hanging in right now because families are spending their wealth, not because the country is steaming ahead of the pack becoming massively productive.

 

4 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by adb968008

[roythebus1]

Maybe the car traffic on ET because of the bad press Dover has had over the last 2 years with coaches waiting over 12 hours to get through the enhanced customs etc on this side? and the 4 hour wait we endured back in June when we went by Irish Ferries to Calais. We live less than 20 minutes from the tunnel and used to be able to get to Calais in an hour if the timing was just right. Straight into the "customs" check, no French customs, join the last knockings for the train we allegedly missed and away.

 

Yes, there's been times when we've been stuck in Calais for over 8 hours because of ET's incompetence or a train failure. But no way can we afford the fares they demand now. Dover is only another 15 minutes down the road. Looking at it another way, to save an hour on the travel time I'd have to work another 2 and a half hours at my top rate to pay for it. I've already had an extra 24 hours driving in the alst year due to road closures on the M20 for the bloody brexit barriers. the extra 10 minutes each way mounts up to a lot of hours over a year.

[jjb1970]

High transport costs aren't a British phenomenon, it's common to all the destinations I fly to, perhaps except for a couple of the local short haul routes (Singapore - Bangkok, Singapore - KL) where there's so much competition and capacity deployed that flights are pretty cheap. Similarly economic problems aren't a peculiarly British thing. I think events of the last couple of years have acted as a catalyst to accelerate some trends and make others more apparent.

[DY444]

It's simple economics.  If flights, sailings and ET departures were half empty then fares would be lower.  Thing is they're not half empty as most of the post-Covid demand ramp-up predictions have been wrong like many of the things claimed by so-called experts during Covid.  Airlines for example stood down a large number of aircraft and have been caught napping as a result; several have had to do a hasty re-work of their fleet plans and return aircraft to service they thought were surplus to requirements.  Plus I've seen numerous reports of a late surge in bookings following the failure of this year's UK summer weather to get the memo about rising temperatures.

 

Oh and blaming it all on Brexit is a lazy, click-bait trope.  Travel prices are up across the board not just between the UK and EU member states. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

21 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

Oh and blaming it all on Brexit is a lazy, click-bait trope.  Travel prices are up across the board not just between the UK and EU member states. 

 

Quite true.

I was looking to fly from Alicante to Miniature Wunderland for a weekend break pre COVID and the prices weren't too bad, post COVID, forget it, the prices have gone somewhat stratospheric.

 

Mike.

[Oldddudders]

Further along the Channel, we find Brittany Ferries relatively affordable from Portsmouth and other ports. A much longer voyage, and you arrive in Normandie or Bretagne, of course, but the voyage itself can be pleasant, with or without a cabin. Not worth not checking out prices and routes?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Are you sure Eurotunnel are still operating at the same capacity as pre-Covid? They might not have scrapped any trains like the airlines have scrapped planes, but Eurostar have apparently reduced the number of seats they sell to counter the reduced capacity through border controls at St Pancras and Gare du Nord post-Brexit, so has the same thing happened at Folkestone, and are ET now running fewer trains as a result, hence higher prices?

 

Quite clearly, since ET seem to be selling all available capacity (at the moment, at any rate - perhaps things will be different in February), the answer to the OP's question is no, Eurotunnel aren't pricing themselves out of the market. On the contrary, they seem to be exploiting it rather effectively, and unless they are breaking the law, it is hard to see their high prices having any negative repercussions for them. Perhaps Eurotunnel fares should be regulated, but I can't see this government doing that, nor any other likely government for that matter.

 

Personally, I have no wish to travel by ET and have been oblivious to their price increases, but I have looked disappointingly at Eurostar. Fortunately, my only post-Covid trip to Europe, at the start of this month, was to Spain, and I was able to come back by ferry from Santander to Plymouth at a price I was quite happy with (my outward journey was by sailing boat).

[icn]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Are you sure Eurotunnel are still operating at the same capacity as pre-Covid? They might not have scrapped any trains like the airlines have scrapped planes, but Eurostar have apparently reduced the number of seats they sell to counter the reduced capacity through border controls at St Pancras and Gare du Nord post-Brexit, so has the same thing happened at Folkestone, and are ET now running fewer trains as a result, hence higher prices?

 

Planes getting scrapped is mostly a myth even if it sounds plausible (see e.g. https://www.wsj.com/articles/planes-grounded-by-covid-19-largely-avoid-the-junkyardfor-now-11622799001 ) - I do believe many were mothballed but were later brought back, if you leave aside the symbolic scrapping of a few A380s. But there is an issue that would affect both trains and planes: "staff shortages", which is partly down to people having been fired during the early years of the pandemic (and issues with re-hiring now that travel has picked up), but also a seeming rise in sickness amongst staff nowadays.  The number of times in the past year that I've read a news story of "chaos at random airport" that included "short notice sickness" is quite astounding, never mind the rise in long-term sicknesses. This isn't limited to flights of course - there's chaos with railways, buses, logistics in general from time to time.

Edited September 24, 2023 by icn

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, icn said:

 

Planes getting scrapped is mostly a myth even if it sounds plausible (see e.g. https://www.wsj.com/articles/planes-grounded-by-covid-19-largely-avoid-the-junkyardfor-now-11622799001 ) - I do believe many were mothballed but were later brought back, if you leave aside the symbolic scrapping of a few A380s. But there is an issue that would affect both trains and planes: "staff shortages", which is partly down to people having been fired during the early years of the pandemic (and issues with re-hiring now that travel has picked up), but also a seeming rise in sickness amongst staff nowadays.  The number of times in the past year that I've read a news story of "chaos at random airport" that included "short notice sickness" is quite astounding, never mind the rise in long-term sicknesses. This isn't limited to flights of course - there's chaos with railways, buses, logistics in general from time to time.

Perhaps people are placing greater importance to their lifestyle and environment, rather than just work and pay, than they were before covid.

 

The UK before covid was a hamster wheel of many hours and being grateful for work, much more than some other countries
 

 

[roythebus1]

"The UK before covid was a hamster wheel of many hours and being grateful for work, much more than some other countries". Most certainly, my retired DB driver friend retired will full pension from Koeln Deutz at the age of 55. Loco drivers there were classed as "beamte", civil servants and retired at 55. 

 

People I know in the Benelux countries retire between 60 and 67 but value their time off, there's none of this British attitude of being tied to the job 24/7, answering company emails from the beach in Alicante. Despite being retired, I find myself still on the hamster wheel because it's not possible to live on a UK pension and still having a valid bus licence means I'm in much demand.

 

As for going via another route, as I live near Folkestone, it makes no sense to use any other port. Portsmouth is 100 miles round the coast, Harwich much the same and the other end would mean a considerable trek to the Ardennes, my usual destination. The journey used to be possible in under 6 hours pre-covid and pre-the B word.

 

As for the E* passport capacity, that could be solved by stopping trains at Ebbsfleet or Ashford and using the border control facilities at those locations. From whatI can see on the ET website, they are still running 2 car trains per hour both ways. Any reduced capacity is the fault of the border controls being unable to process the numbers of users; that IS the fault of the B word!
 

Edited September 24, 2023 by roythebus1

[KeithMacdonald]

12 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Eurotunnel aren't pricing themselves out of the market. On the contrary, they seem to be exploiting it rather effectively

 

That may be (at least in part) because the French Government has already done its best to ban short-haul flights. Now it is going a step further.

 

Quote

The French government announced that it hopes to bring in a minimum price for airline tickets to eliminate the possibility of low-cost flights. ...  It's a promising start for French environmentalists at the return to work of the French government after the summer holidays—after proposing $110 million of investment in train infrastructure in the upcoming budget from an increase in airline taxes, there are plans to restart the night train from Paris to Berlin, run by ÖBB three times per week from December onwards at a starting cost of just $29. What's more, after introducing a law that bans short-haul flights where a train route of under 2.5 hours already exists, the French government is also looking to replicate a very successful scheme in Germany that allows unlimited travel on any public transport for around $50 per month, including intercity trains.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexledsom/2023/09/07/the-end-of-cheap-europe-flights-france-proposes-eu-wide-minimum-price/

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by KeithMacdonald
typo

[Ron Ron Ron]

The French ban on domestic flights, only affects routes where a train journey of under 2.5 hours already exists.

There is an exemption for flights which provide a connection to international services, which means that flights on the limited number of routes affected by the ban, still operate.

Away from the affected routes, there are lots of domestic flights, criss- crossing France.

In fact there has been an increase in the number of such flights operating, since the “ ban” came in !

 

 

.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[Fat Controller]

13 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

"The UK before covid was a hamster wheel of many hours and being grateful for work, much more than some other countries". Most certainly, my retired DB driver friend retired will full pension from Koeln Deutz at the age of 55. Loco drivers there were classed as "beamte", civil servants and retired at 55. 

 

People I know in the Benelux countries retire between 60 and 67 but value their time off, there's none of this British attitude of being tied to the job 24/7, answering company emails from the beach in Alicante. Despite being retired, I find myself still on the hamster wheel because it's not possible to live on a UK pension and still having a valid bus licence means I'm in much demand.

 

As for going via another route, as I live near Folkestone, it makes no sense to use any other port. Portsmouth is 100 miles round the coast, Harwich much the same and the other end would mean a considerable trek to the Ardennes, my usual destination. The journey used to be possible in under 6 hours pre-covid and pre-the B word.

 

As for the E* passport capacity, that could be solved by stopping trains at Ebbsfleet or Ashford and using the border control facilities at those locations. From whatI can see on the ET website, they are still running 2 car trains per hour both ways. Any reduced capacity is the fault of the border controls being unable to process the numbers of users; that IS the fault of the B word!
 

Two Tourist Shuttles (at xx:21 and 00:51) would be the usual service outside the holiday season., and has been so since 1995. A third service might be run at xx:39, should there be anticipated demand. It is worth moving departure times about; this can lead to discovering cheaper tickets.

[BachelorBoy]

I don't think Eurotunnel/Le Shuttle/Getlink is pricing itself out of the market.

 

The number of users is rising despite the higher prices.

 

 

 

[Ben B]

On 23/09/2023 at 07:05, fulton said:

I also use Eurotunnel frequently, now rebranded LeShuttle, with two return trips booked in October, prices have gone up, like almost everything, at the moment the speed and convenience still make it the best option for myself, I think the trains are showing their age, I wonder when reliability begins to suffer.

 

That thought occurred to me when we used the tunnel in the summer, all the trains were looking bit worn around the edges. Given the age of the locomotives, I wonder if anyone is giving thought to their replacements? Massive tri-bo heavyhaulers. Even little things like all those opening and closing doors in the vehicle carriages, all those motors working away... it's a very intensive service with what is now quite old stock.

[Fat Controller]

29 minutes ago, Ben B said:

 

That thought occurred to me when we used the tunnel in the summer, all the trains were looking bit worn around the edges. Given the age of the locomotives, I wonder if anyone is giving thought to their replacements? Massive tri-bo heavyhaulers. Even little things like all those opening and closing doors in the vehicle carriages, all those motors working away... it's a very intensive service with what is now quite old stock.

Though it might not be obvious, the  original locos received new traction packs a few years ago, rated at 7mW against the 5.5 mW of the originals. The stock is pretty intensively used.

[admiles]

15 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

"The UK before covid was a hamster wheel of many hours and being grateful for work, much more than some other countries". Most certainly, my retired DB driver friend retired will full pension from Koeln Deutz at the age of 55. Loco drivers there were classed as "beamte", civil servants and retired at 55. 

 

People I know in the Benelux countries retire between 60 and 67 but value their time off, there's none of this British attitude of being tied to the job 24/7, answering company emails from the beach in Alicante. Despite being retired, I find myself still on the hamster wheel because it's not possible to live on a UK pension and still having a valid bus licence means I'm in much demand.

 

As for going via another route, as I live near Folkestone, it makes no sense to use any other port. Portsmouth is 100 miles round the coast, Harwich much the same and the other end would mean a considerable trek to the Ardennes, my usual destination. The journey used to be possible in under 6 hours pre-covid and pre-the B word.

 

As for the E* passport capacity, that could be solved by stopping trains at Ebbsfleet or Ashford and using the border control facilities at those locations. From whatI can see on the ET website, they are still running 2 car trains per hour both ways. Any reduced capacity is the fault of the border controls being unable to process the numbers of users; that IS the fault of the B word!
 

 

UK Border Force are chronically short of staff and struggling to recruit so the chances of more border inspection points such as Ebbsfleet or Ashford being (re)opened is I suspect remote. The fact that UKBF were ordered to stop recruiting new staff and lay off existing staff in the run up to "the B word" is another Great British Win......

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by admiles

[adb968008]

5 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

UK Border Force are chronically short of staff and struggling to recruit so the chances of more border inspection points such as Ebbsfleet or Ashford being (re)opened is I suspect remote. The fact that UKBF were ordered to stop recruiting new staff and lay off existing staff in the run up to "the B word" is another Great British Win......

 

Yet immigration and customs officers at the border is one of the few areas of government where it should be self funding.

just add the cost to the price of the ticket and let the passengers pay for it.

in theory this shouldnt be a huge burden, unless government pork is fed into it, especially when the facilities already exist, and are currently unused.

Edited September 25, 2023 by adb968008