Eurotunnel pricing themselves out of the market

[JeffP]

But tha

14 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

once in 20 years ? Really ?

 

Whats silly is building not one, not two but three an international stations and closing them, leaving them out of use and having all services run non stop past them.

 

Then complaining the only open station is crowded to excess, because a portion of the passengers cannot use the said closed station.

 

Then running trains to part full capacity, and giving up that extra revenue because it cannot handle the volume.

 

 

But that's the current British way.

If it's not affecting YOU personally, its not happening.

And ET or ES don't need to be re-elected in a year, either.

[adb968008]

21 minutes ago, JeffP said:

But tha

But that's the current British way.

If it's not affecting YOU personally, its not happening.

And ET or ES don't need to be re-elected in a year, either.

Depressingly true.

 

I do feel Eurostar should fall under EU aviation rules, when it comes to handling passenger rights, even Ryanair does better in these situations.

 

if punitive passenger rights were in place, it would focus minds away from the “tough luck heres your money back” approach.

 

Maybe if Eurostar gets some competition, and a level playing field against airline they may become more responsible.

 

Ive been stuck in Eurostar meltdowns before, and what strikes me is how helpless the staff become.. its clear they are just resigned to accept it, then start to drift away because there is nothing they can do because there is no plan B.. not even bottles of water to hand out, even my local station has a thousand+ bottles of water stashed in a cage under the footbridge for emergencies.

 

it shouldn't be that hard to count empty seats before departure, and allow some standing, if they wish, to try to make an attempt at clearing the backlog… going business as usual with empty seats shouldn't be happening in a crisis.

Edited January 1 by adb968008

[Ron Ron Ron]

24 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

once in 20 years ? Really ?

HS1 all the way to London and St. Pancras International will have been operational for 17 years, this year.

As far as I’m aware, this is the first time that unplanned disruption has closed the line north of Ebbsfleet.

Once the cause of the flooding in the Thames tunnel has been established, we might find the likelihood of this type of event is even rarer.

 

 

28 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

…..So the whole argument for doing nothing rests on the idea of the toilets (in the international terminal) of an open domestic station dont work ?

 

I’m not claiming any inside knowledge ( I’m only speculating like everyone else here), but if those facilities are closed and put in mothballs, it won’t be a trivial matter to get them up and running within a day …or even two, especially over an extended “ holiday period” like Xmas & NY,  by which time it would be too late.

 

35 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

……Whats silly is building not one, not two but three an international stations and closing them, leaving them out of use and having all services run non stop past them.

 

Then complaining the only open station is crowded to excess, because a portion of the passengers cannot use the said closed stations.

 

Then running trains to part full capacity, and giving up that extra revenue because it cannot handle the volume.

They shouldn’t need to be keeping a station ready for emergencies… they should be open…..

 

That’s an entirely separate argument.

I agree, those facilities should be properly used.

 

37 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

…..This isnt 1953 either, modern social media exists and people can be quite adaptive… if word was out that Ebbsfleet was the end of the line, they would use cars….and make use of the massive car park…..

 

 

Use cars?

Many stranded passengers will have been visitors that have been in London or the wider UK and are trying to get to Paris, Brussels etc, or trying to get back home.

Others will have made their way, or already be on their way to St Pancras International by public transport to find their train has been cancelled on arrival.

They may already be a long way from home.

If they have a car, it would be back there at home, which could be …..anywhere?

 

45 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

….As I said if it was a war, there would be an immediate solution which would be the same solution, so its only will power preventing it.

 

This was not a war situation, or any sort of national emergency.

All it was, was a tunnel suffering some flooding and services being disrupted and cancelled for less than 24 hours.

Hardly comparable.

Get a grip!

Major transport disruption is a common risk worldwide.

It’s a fact of life.

There has been far more disruption and personal travel plans ruined by a year’s worth of never ending rail strikes, than this overblown event.

 

 

.

 

.

[APOLLO]

Said it before, say it again.

 

"They" (Governments (many), EU leaders, WEF, UN, WB, etc etc etc) simply do not want you to travel freely and as we all did (pre covid), especially by 2030, 50 etc. They have targets, lots of them.

 

Barriers are slowly being put in place to slowly enact this.

 

EV's mandatory that most cannot afford, a whole subject in itself (Charging, Elec costs, Insurance, Safety)

This article re the Chanel Tunnel & Ebbsfleet says a lot. Sorry, no trains due to XYZ, Go ""home"" and come again perhaps tomorrow, or perhaps in a few days !!!

15 Minute City & the like (Not a theory anymore, Khan etc are members and are quite open with it).

Mentioning Khan, ULEZ road pricing etc etc (coming to you and me soon in one form or another)

UK (and other) Govs not sorting out our Railways (etc etc) on many counts - they simply are not interested, a part solution to their no travel mandate. Take Avanti trains at Preston last week - Quite simply no one gives a flying **** anymore. Sorry, no service today, go away, we have your money.

 

Call me a tin foil hatter if you wish, I just do a bit of research and join the (very many) dots together. It's all quite alarming as we sleep walk into Dystopia.

 

Another subject is the Nations energy, both supply and dependability etc - but that (although linked to Transport) is a whole subject for another thread.

 

Happy New Year all, off for a walk soon before they put a tax on that !!!!!

 

Brit15

 

 

[adb968008]

51 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

HS1 all the way to London and St. Pancras International will have been operational for 17 years, this year.

As far as I’m aware, this is the first time that unplanned disruption has closed the line north of Ebbsfleet.

Once the cause of the flooding in the Thames tunnel has been established, we might find the likelihood of this type of event is even rarer.

Are you serious ?

Planes never crash in the same place twice either, but airlines have plans for it.

Storms never hit the same spot every year

Tornados dont either.

The whole wibble of it only happens once ever doesnt stack up…

Acts of god are unfortunately unpredictable.

 

Lets be less specific… is it the first time Eurostar has failed enmass to deliver a service in a crisis..

 

no it happens often, as often as it happens on other rail, air transport.

 

Is there any fall back plan ?.. no weve seen it many times before… passengers breaking windows to breathe, stranded for hours, IT meltdowns its all happened.

 

 

 

 

 

51 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

I’m not claiming any inside knowledge ( I’m only speculating like everyone else here), but if those facilities are closed and put in mothballs, it won’t be a trivial matter to get them up and running within a day …or even two, especially over an extended “ holiday period” like Xmas & NY,  by which time it would be too late.

i can buy a ticket to ebbsfleet and ashford intl any day of the week… so they are open.

just not the international platforms…. Theres 10 trains in the next hour at Ebbsfleet… and its new years day.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

That’s an entirely separate argument.

I agree, those facilities should be properly used.

 

no its not a different argument, if it was being used by Eurostar as it used to be, it would have been the contingency on the day… failure of one is failure of the other.

And its not because of lack of demand, theres constant public calls for the service to return.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

Use cars?

Many stranded passengers will have been visitors that have been in London or the wider UK and are trying to get to Paris, Brussels etc, or trying to get back home.

Others will have made their way, or already be on their way to St Pancras International by public transport to find their train has been cancelled on arrival.

They may already be a long way from home.

If they have a car, it would be back there at home, which could be …..anywhere?

 

 

Are you really trying to say that no passengers have cars in the UK ?
That passenger are incapable of reading a web page, tweet ?

or that Eurostar themselves are incapable of sending an email or a text message in bulk in an automated way ?

 

 

51 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

This was not a war situation, or any sort of national emergency.

All it was, was a tunnel suffering some flooding and services being disrupted and cancelled for less than 24 hours.

Hardly comparable.

Get a grip!

 

As long as its not your family ?

Airlines handle it better, and they dont have the benefit of passing built for purpose stations that are open and in use by domestic services… were talking here about opening an immigration facility, that already exists… nothing more.

 

 

 

51 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Major transport disruption is a common risk worldwide.

It’s a fact of life.

There has been far more disruption and personal travel plans ruined by a year’s worth of never ending rail strikes, than this overblown event.

 

 

.

 

.

So tough luck go home  ?

Does that apply if it happens to you too ?

 

ive travelled worldwide and never failed to get home for a peak travel event despite being caught by cancelations, weather delays, strikes, aircraft failures etc etc…

The industry has plans to mitigate.

 

imo Eurostar should have similar, and they neednt be complicated or hard… they dont need to be palatial solutions either… i’m sure getting home, albeit late, in a taxi after a long queue at Ebbsfleet, or being picked up by dad after a few hours is more desirable than sleeping on Gare Du Nord floor for 3 days awaiting a space on a train.

 

 

sorry, the facilities exist, it is a localised emergency, there should be contingencies.

leaving 20k people stranded at a train station either side of the channel absolving themselves of the duty of care and to fend for themselves is no trivial thing.

Sure it wont help everyone, but doing nothing for no one isnt acceptable, and those it helps reduces pressure on resources for others (local hotels, foot passenger on ferries, other rail etc).

 

 

 

 

Edited January 1 by adb968008

[Ron Ron Ron]

6 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I totally agree, the idea of our railways' operators having a contingency plan is just ridiculous.  Which is precisely what is wrong in this situation.

I realise the sarcasm.

I was not suggesting there should be no contingency plan (there probably is and it was being applied on the day), but that any contingency plan that includes running services from closed facilities, further down the line, would be preposterously expensive and a bit of a farce set against the likely risk of needing to use them..

This event lasted for just 1 day.

 

How long would it take from the initial report of flooding, to a temporary halt in operations while engineers were sent down to check out the situation, for the operations team to start evaluating the impact and reporting upstairs?

It would surely have been a sequence of unfolding events over a period of a couple of hours.

Had they been able to resolve the issue within a few more hours, it would have been pointless to consider opening up closed stations down the line, as everything would have been up and running again, before they could start up a fallback operation.

 

There will have been far more people around the world, affected by flight cancellations due to bad weather, over the holiday period.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited January 1 by Ron Ron Ron

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 that a contingency plan that includes running services from closed stations, further down the line, would be preposterously expensive and a bit of a farce set against the likely risks.

 

you better tell south eastern quick then, they have 10 services in the next hour stopping there.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:EBD

 

1.5mn passengers last year, not bad for a closed station.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebbsfleet_International_railway_station

what makes it expensive to stop at Ebbsfleet ? 
is Ebbsfleet a dangerous place, whats the risk ?

Eurostar used to stop there, it was only politics that stopped it.

 

How does that cost stack up if legislation said Eurostar had to provide accommodation or air travel alternatives, on par with the aviation industry ?

 

is it worth the 50p a day standing charge to keep the intl waiting room lights working, that might even make that money back if they stopped there daily again…. I’ll even take a bet that the intl entrance is still live and available for an emergency exit.. afterall KX thameslink is, and that has been properly closed for nearly 2 decades,

 

immigration infrastructure itself is portable kit, scanners, rollers are available on wheels, human scanners can be flat packed and set up in minutes. Passport scanners themselves use secure vpn and can work over 5g, with a scanner attached to an Iphone in a handheld cradle which includes an extending life battery.  This is 2023 not 1923… it can and regularly been done.. just wander down to a cruise ship terminal and see it in action…ive seen a secure perimeter and processing facilities set up and become active on a pier side, including pop up tents, within 30 mins before now…. Though this kit should already be present at Ebbsfleet and Ashford as they were active immigration processing facilities.

 

 

Edited January 1 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I totally agree, the idea of our railways' operators having a contingency plan is just ridiculous.  Which is precisely what is wrong in this situation.

I started off by trying to outline the decision process which would lead to the creation, or not, of a contingency plan and you can read all that below if you wish.   But then, belatedly, i looked at how such a plan would have worked the other day and it's perhaps a more useful starting point because there are contingency plans and there are contingency plans.   You have to start from the simple basis of practicality, i.e. can you actually write a plan that will be  effective;  ability to introduce it at the desired period of notice e.g even one hour doesn't give you much time to open a station which has been closed to handllng international passengers; which will only work if every organisation involved is prepared to take part. e.g will HMRC go along with it in the case of Eurostar; is it going to be cost effective - which can be measured in numerous different ways, and critically, is capable pf being dismantled and back to normal working far more rapidly than it could be introduced.

 

So here's the way the all singing and dancing 'station, and all agencies, ready' contingency plan is likely to work - assuming that 'work' is the correct word

 

So being generous we'll say that Ebbsfleet will be ready to accept a train by 09.30 -10.00 having allowed 3 -4 hours to shift most of the necessary people to there from St Pancras - note that not everything can be moved - Ill mention that,,

 

The first inbound Brussel train will have been cancelled and it then depends on SNCF holding the 08.11 Paris to start at c.10.30 (Paris time) and arrive Ebbsfleet  at c.11.40.  So it won't be able to return, all being well, with little or no cleaning, and with no refreshment re-stocking, until around 12.20ish.  But that assumes Ebbsfleet can handle passengers as quickly as St Pancras and if they had managed to get there it will be looking to clear four trainloads but as that isn't permissible three trainloads will be left behind - if they got to Ebbsfleet.   The booked 10.30 Paris (if there is stock for it?) won't be far behind so assuming it can be platformed and turned round it won't be too far behind the other tra.in - but that still leaves two trainloads.   And then we run out of incoming trains because nothing left London in order to work back from Paris.  The reduced number of trains means there'l be no slack to absorb passengers from what isn't running so you'll simply transfer a crowd, albeit reduced in number, from St Pancras to Ebbsfleet.  And that will go on all day because it will be impossible to catch up as there won't be enough trains because sets are blocked in at the London end which means that 3 sets aren't in traffic.  Note - I haven't made any arrangements to get passengers from St Pancras to Ebbsfleet - which would need c.20 road coaches per trainload

.

In summary shifting out to Ebbsfleet, let alone Ashford will mean that lots of intending passengers would still be left behind because there won't be enough trains to lift them all.  Some people will get where the want to - late, some won't get any further than they did before we introduced the contingency plan.  Of h and in the meanwhile theres a staff shortage at St pancras t deal with the crowds of intending travellers still trying their luck there

 

You're back to where Eurostar began with its approach to contingency planning 30 years ago.   And in this case , as Ron. has noted, where do you get the essential resources from in order to do it/. You have to move dozens of people to wherever in order to set up so how do you do that?  Do you have a standing order for 'buses or whatever road vehicles you will need (that will be an ongoing cost) or do you cross your fingers and hope you can get some (no continuing cost but you take pot luck).  How much do you pay to keep the other station(s) ready for instant reopening - yet another cost.

 

If your head is srewed on you first of all do the necessary risk assessments.  One obvious risk is that for whatevern reason the rail route - your only one - between London and wherever might be closed for some reason.  Quite simple actually because there is ample quantitative evidence to give you two of the most essential pieces of information for such assessment - frequency of such events and their duration.   And the fact is, strike action apart - that such events are rare over the 30 years (this year) that Eurostar has been operating.  And, fires in the Channel Tunnel apart, the duration of such events is limited with in many cases normality being restored within a day or so.    

 

That is the level of risk to not being able to operate.    Against that you obviously have to assess the business risk, i.e. the financial impact on ypur business but that should in any case be measured against the cost of whatever you would have to do to mitigate that impact on your business.   I think I can fairly accurately guess, certainly from my admittedly dated experience, how those numbers will come out.   And equally I wouldn't be the first to arrive at the conclusion that for one or two days loss of service there is no truly effective contingency plan which can be devised at anything approaching a supportable cost.

 

Yes - and sorry if people don't like it - but very often it will come down to juggling numbers on a spreadsheet in order to inform a decision.  The London-Paris part of Eurostar is strapped for cash - it owes money to the UK Govt (i.e. to you and me) and it faces an increase in the level of contributions it make to the Eurostar section of the former BR Pension Fund  (that will not be long term all being well and I admit a very personal reliance on the financing of that fund) plus it no doubt has to find money for other thngs.  The UK Govt will no doubt be much happier to receive repayments from Eurostar than watch that money being laid out to secure a call-off contract for road transport on the basis that it might be needed once or twice a year and whi h even then might not be immediately available when they are needed (BR found that out to its cost a long time ago).

 

My final point is a simple one.  If you have such a contingency plan in place and every agency involved has signed up for it  plus you have, say, Ebbsfleet fully equipped and ready to unlock the door how long would it take to implement the plan?.  Probably a mnimum of three hours more likely 4 hours, see above.  

 

 

[ess1uk]

So if there was no E* service did Eurotunnel have the capacity to provide an extra service in the paths that E* didn’t use?

[The Stationmaster]

4 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

So if there was no E* service did Eurotunnel have the capacity to provide an extra service in the paths that E* didn’t use?

Er yes - but what trains would they run in those paths?   They certainly wouldn't, for example, have been able to accommodate the number of road coaches hired (if they could be found) to cover the missing Eurostar trains.  So they would have had no other way of shifting the Eurostar passengers.

[APOLLO]

I trust our public transport systems so little these days that I (and my family) have our own contingency plans in place. Always have a plan B ( and perhaps a plan C) if and when things go wrong when travelling.  Sods Law states that one day this contingency planning will come into play.

 

My daughter in her new job travels by rail occasionally, London, Coventry, Leeds, York, etc for short meetings. Her company encourages the use of public transport. All Cities mentioned (should) be an easy return journey from Wigan by train in a day. She has a list of hotels / taxis (Uber App) etc  on her phone just in case she gets stranded. Also a bit of pre journey research into alternative routes etc does no harm.

 

The rail operators these days just simply do not care one jot re the passenger.

 

Long distance air passengers (in my personal experience) seem to fare far better than rail passengers when incidents etc happen. Yes my plane has been cancelled / long delayed more than once, we were looked after and not abandoned. (Major airlines, hotels, alternative flights etc organised).

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

[adanapress]

To get those waiting passengers from St Pancras to somewhere helpful,  nobody ever considers  running

some kind of stock from Platform 5 at St Pancras, then Regents Canal Junction and Silo Curve Junction then Camden Road, , Willesden, and the Southern Region to Swanley and Fawkham Junction and thereby get to somewhere helpful.  So its a very long way round,  and some of it slow,  and theres no suitable stock or locos but  some of the all round pain could be less ... Once upon a  time  it might have been possible ..

with the management of a different generation..sigh ..

[ess1uk]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Er yes - but what trains would they run in those paths?   

I actually was thinking about LeShuttle as family used it that day and they were put on an earlier service 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, adanapress said:

To get those waiting passengers from St Pancras to somewhere helpful,  nobody ever considers  running

some kind of stock from Platform 5 at St Pancras, then Regents Canal Junction and Silo Curve Junction then Camden Road, , Willesden, and the Southern Region to Swanley and Fawkham Junction and thereby get to somewhere helpful.  So its a very long way round,  and some of it slow,  and theres no suitable stock or locos but  some of the all round pain could be less ... Once upon a  time  it might have been possible ..

with the management of a different generation..sigh ..

Even back in BR days it would not have been easy.  First you have to find some stock and some traction.  Then , even more difficult - you need to find a crew that know the road.  If the Eurostar depot had remained at North Pole and if Class 373s with 3rd rail capability were still available and if Eurostar Drivers had retained their original Route Knowledge (although very few of them knew both parts of such a route) you could do it if you had a Driver and set plus the the two Train Managers available at the right time and place.  In fact you could even carry on to Paris or Brussel

 

But that would mean several 'ifs' would be needed and they all went by the board in their various ways post opening of St Pancras and Temple Mills depot, plus removal of the 3rd rail capability from the remaining 373s.    The ideal diversionary location of Waterloo ceased t exist and the Road Knowledge and suitably equipped traction went with it.

 

So you don't come anywhere near being able to do it like that.  Nowadays the chances of easily finding an 11 coach set of loco hauled stock anywhere near London, with the possible exception of Southall (and no CDL??) is very remote.   The most likely availabe loco is possinbly a freight company but very difficult to find a driver who knows the road all the way to a suitable transfer location

[jjb1970]

Any contingency plan is ultimately about cost/benefit, how much do you spend holding and maintaining people, assets, operational capabilities etc vs. the costs of disruption. It doesn't help passengers when they end up in one of these meltdowns (and I've been there several times) but how much would it cost to keep locomotives, rolling stock, trained drivers, diversion routes etc in place vs how often they'd be needed? In some scenarios I'm guessing the costs add up, in others it'll be more sensible just to accept the costs of occasional disruption. For airlines I am guessing the cost/benefit equation is slightly different as they're probably more exposed to disruption and in most cases their contingency is re-routing passengers with different airlines or putting up to about 400 people in a hotel for the night (that's what, half a Eurostar). When things go full on wrong such as airports being shut down by storms or massive technical failures they flounder as much as train companies in my experience, but again major meltdowns aren't that common and what are they doing to do if weather conditions stop flights.

[johnofwessex]

Interesting article here

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/01/channel-tunnel-uk-european-30th-anniversary#comment-165919553

 

The idea that it should be treated as crucial national infrastructure and that Eurostar passengers should have the same rights as air passengers in the event of disruption are worth serious consiideration

[The Stationmaster]

29 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

Interesting article here

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/01/channel-tunnel-uk-european-30th-anniversary#comment-165919553

 

The idea that it should be treated as crucial national infrastructure and that Eurostar passengers should have the same rights as air passengers in the event of disruption are worth serious consiideration

Alas spome of it is typical Wolmar - about as informed as asking one of our cats to write an article.  A critical point is that running freight trains during the day would eat its way into Tunnel capacity like nothing else you could think of and would mean cancellin some of the shuttles.  And running at night has massive problems due to the Tunnel maintenance patterns think of day.

 

Some of the sleepers were utterly ridiculous - can you seriously imagine many folk wanting to leave Plymouth at 18.00 ( yes, really) to arrive in Paris at 10.00 the next morning?   And you can forget Brussel as SNCB bowed out of the sleeper plan years before it bit the dust.  The only way the provincial sleepers might have been made to pay was to do what i did and run them via Waterloo where they could have offered a late night start to get to Parid at the time I mentioned - that might have worked.  But if you went very far west of Reading/possibly Swindon or Basingstoke/possibly Salisbury you could forget them as thedeparture times were so early (and arrivals in the opposite direction so late).

 

Because the 'gap tiller' shorter distance London/Ashfoird - Lille trains have never run the big gap in use of the Tunnel is the 'national railways high speed passenger train' paths - aka Eurostar.  So  provided 'Eurostar' are prepared to give up some of those paths they could be sold to other operators.  Great, but Eurostar will never give up any paths which are commercially the most viable, which is of course where their trains run.  So  a newcomer would have to take the unwanted stuff.  That might well work for, say, London - Basel or Bern but not for journeys between the existing capitals served by Eurostar although cheap fares at unattractive times might work.  But where do they run from in London (or Paris come to that)?   The only capacity at St Pancras is in gaps when Eurostars are not about.  We were hard pushed at times with 5 platforms at Waterloo International all of them with suitable access to achieve 35 minute train turnrounds; St Pancras can't get anywhere near that in turnround times which, in turn, messes messes up platform capacity - in the wrong direction

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Instead of full fat sleepers, why weren't reclining seat/couchette coaches considered?

 

Mike.

[adb968008]

Even if Eurostar said “it’ll run to Ebbsfleet” and your on your own..

 

they could have gone one way from Europe with passengers who,would accept being stranded here as cheaper and more options than being stranded there*, and a handful who made it to Ebbsfleet to exit to europe.

 

Uber, black cabs would have a party both directions, as would SE regular rail services. Many would have opted to drive or be dropped off / picked up at Ebbsfleet than trek hopelessly to St Pancras.

Hiring coaches etc neednt come into it, but the domestic rail industry seems capable of doing it, so something is better than nothing… Ensignbus always has short notice hires.

 

Theres too much thought about gold plate solutions, when Dunquerque spirit will do….

 

Don't underestimate the value of modern transport, digital communications and the ability of the passenger to adapt and use it last minute.

 

This would have solved half the problem at least.

It would also mean pressure on alternative air/hotel solutions would have been less, and allow some compassion to be focussed on those who could not be accomodated.

 

if Eurostar was an airline, they would have been presented with 18k hotel bills, meal invoices and 250 Euro compensation as well as ticket refunds or return tickets…

i’m sure they would think differently then stiffing people on the day, if the bill for a lost day was £30mn + there own costs + lost revenue.

 

ive been on plenty of Eurostars where turnaround cleaning never happens in a crisis, its minging, toilets stink, to find the buffet without even a bottle of water was a blow, but when faced with a choice of a train 3 hours late and disgusting… or no train at all, an extra night of hotels and expenses on your own dime, everyone will choose the latter…. Because travel isnt about the journey, its about getting there.

 

if that train from Paris was an 08 on mk1’s… thousands would still have taken it.. because a days disruption costs far more and loses them much more.. 

The problem I see is the rail industry has dragged itself from the 1960’s to its gold plated 2024 on a platform of safety, which has been extremely lucrative, but when it comes to compassion its still in the 1940’s, because caring and empathy doesnt earn contractors money…

 

Social Responsibility should carry a penalty cost, individuals should be able to claim consequential expenses (lost pay, hotels, meals alternative transport).. only then may railways realise giving up and going home, or leaving people stranded on toiletless trains for 3+ hours carries a responsibility culture  that matches safety culture in 2024..

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2 by adb968008

[Bernard Lamb]

My daughter and her partner went to stay with friends in Amsterdam for the New Year. They got the last train out before the cancellations started. They came back this afternoon, again without any delays. I reckon they were very lucky. As the train approached Calais everybodys phone started ringing with a general alert about high winds and floods. This was repeated on arrival in Kent. Alighting at Ashford, if that idea had been put into operation, would have been quite a welcome to England. How are these warning calls triggered?

Bernard

[jjb1970]

I've wondered about those emergency messages, as I've recieved them to my Singaporean number when visiting England so the system notifies all active numbers on the network which is really rather good.

[roythebus1]

Some interesting views there. 

 

Did nobody think of sending people stranded at STP down the Northern Line to Charing Cross or Waterloo then out to Ebbsfleet on local services? Or STP to Victoria? The latter was not possible that day as Victoria Eastern was closed as was a lot of the South Eastern.

 

To expect to find 20 road coaches or buses at short notice at any time would be a major task. the bus and coach industry virtually closes down over the Christmas period as the schools close. And to then find the required number of Euro 6 coaches with drivers who have enough tacho hours would be difficult. Not so bad getting out to Ebbsfleet as tachos wouldn't be required.

 

A good few years back almost every airport in the south was closed due to fog on the day before Christmas eve. I was running a private hire car and bus firm in New Romney at the time. The only airport fog-free was Lydd. That was ok for landing planes up to 737s. ISTR it took 49 planes of varying sizes that evening. I ran 2 private hire cars, there were only 6 other cars in the area at the time and no coaches or buses available at all. I have my contacts at Ensign and I think they sent 3 double deckers along, all they could manage. A few taxis turned u from Ashford. there were no local hotels to talk of, the nearest being in Ashford, Folkestone or Rye, all a 20 mile journey from Lydd. I took 3 lots of aircrew and that was all I could do. I don't know how many people remained at Lydd overnight, but the airport coped along with the help of local people. One of the aircrew I took had come from Switzerland. They wanted Southampton, closed; LHR, closed, Gatwick, closed, Stansted closed, Luton closed. Southend was open, but by then they were too low on fuel. It was then they found Lydd was clear. Quite how the rest of the airline industry coped I don't know.

 

But like every other transport undertaking in the country, the railways have been cut back to the bone with privytisation cutting back on train crew route knowledge, traction knowledge and the like and no rolling stock reserves at all, apart from engineering spares and accident spares. Much the same in the bus industry, very few spare buses and a massive driver shortage. There is little that anybody can do when the poo hits the fan. airlines are more able to cope as it seems to happen more to then and they usually have lots of hotels round airports.

 

In an earlier life I was involved with costing for a London Transport rail replacement bus fleet. 20 buses with staff 24/7/365. It was a horrendous annual cost. The nearest anyone got to that was Connex with their own rail replacement bus fleet in Croydon, and that worked out to be as useful as a handbrake on a canoe.

 

The thing that sticks in my mind was being stuck in Calais about 6 years ago at ET. Cars were queued back onto the motorway, it was night and the only facility was the small snack bar in the terminal, but once we moved into the lans for boarding there was absolutely nothing for about 5 hours, nothing. all I got in comp was the offer of a 50% off a full-price journey within 3 months. Not worth the paper it was written on. The more annoying bit was that when we eventually boarded a train they only loaded it to 50%!! I was told by a crew member that was happening on all the trains that night.there was a lot of very angry people that night, myself included. 

 

 

[jjb1970]

I think Eurotunnel are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

Assuming they were able to implement a truncated service terminating at Ashford, not everyone knows how to use the domestic rail service and alternative transport modes. As well as British normals who have next to zero knowledge of British train services many Eurostar passengers are foreigners with even less knowledge and perhaps limited UK data connectivity. You can imagine the chaos that would result from thousands of passengers being dumped at Ashford. Presumably in such a scenario Eurostar would try to arrange coaches but good luck with organizing anything like enough at such short notice. The predictable result would be a social media and media meltdown with thousands of horror stories about people finding themselves abandoned in the middle of nowhere (let's be honest, to most people that's what Ashford International is) with grossly overloaded staff unable to help. 

[Northmoor]

Since ES have effectively closed the "International" bit of Ashford International, have they had to go through any sort of closure procedure?  As taxpayer who helped pay for it, I'm interested.

[DenysW]

15 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Since ES have effectively closed the "International" bit of Ashford International

I've only used Ashford Domestic once (a day trip to visit Ashford sewage works - I used to get to all the highlights of England, Wales & Scotland) and it was essentially unrelated to Ashford International. Think Birmingham Moor Street and New Street but walking distance not tram distance, or Waterloo and Waterloo East. I therefore 100% agree that re-opening  as an emergency measure would be (a) in need of a long-term de-mothballing strategy (b) the first thing that would get cut when accountants reviewed costs. I note @adb968008's comments about services/hr to Ebbsfleet and/or Ashford, but that's comparing New St and Moor St, when one has been mothballed and the other is still in service.