Eurotunnel pricing themselves out of the market

[fulton]

2 hours ago, admiles said:

 

UK Border Force are chronically short of staff 

 

Not sure if it would normally be Border Force or Customs, but when I get pulled over for my van to be searched it is often private security, maybe because of the shortage of "proper" staff, at the Tunnel anyway.

Edited September 25, 2023 by fulton
correction

[phil-b259]

17 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

 

As for the E* passport capacity, that could be solved by stopping trains at Ebbsfleet or Ashford and using the border control facilities at those locations. From whatI can see on the ET website, they are still running 2 car trains per hour both ways. Any reduced capacity is the fault of the border controls being unable to process the numbers of users; that IS the fault of the B word!
 

 

(1) Border force personnel are employed by the UK Home office (its not within Eurostars remit to open up extra border processing posts whenever they feel like lie it) and given the tight budgetary restraints all Governments are being subjected to plus the fact that much higher profile places like Heathrow are frequently complaining that the Home office does not provide enough border staff I don't think that Eurostar would be able to make a 'sound business case' to the department to repopulate Ebsfleet and Ashford with border force officers.

 

(2) Re-opening Ebslfeet and Ashford comes with costs - there are terminals to keep clean =heated + cooled,the provision of refreshment facilities, employment of station / platform staff etc. PLUS neither Ebslfeet or Ashford have any provision for duty free shopping (the designers not imagining this nation would ever be stupid enough to commit economic suicide and leave the single market) which is viewed as an important contributor to cross channel operators income these days.

 

(3) Even before the pandemic the travelling public made it abundantly clear that they did not want to use Ashford and Ebsfleet in large numbers! Yes Ashford had a pretty poor service in its later years but when it first opened the service was good - and hardly anyone used it in spite of that! Meanwhile Ebsfleet, although a later addition to Eurostar, was also reported to be disappointing in the numbers choosing to join Eurostar and its rather foolish to imagine that demand will suddenly materialise at either location were Eurostar to resume operations at said stations.

 

[admiles]

39 minutes ago, fulton said:

Not sure if it would normally be Border Force or Customs, but when I get pulled over for my van to be searched it is often private security, maybe because of the shortage of "proper" staff, at the Tunnel anyway.

 

It's UKBF who are responsible for border security. ET also have their own private security staff who also perform searches of vehicles but for other reasons. Presumably checking for prohibited items what might affect safety on the trains etc. 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

(1) Border force personnel are employed by the UK Home office (its not within Eurostars remit to open up extra border processing posts whenever they feel like lie it) and given the tight budgetary restraints all Governments are being subjected to plus the fact that much higher profile places like Heathrow are frequently complaining that the Home office does not provide enough border staff I don't think that Eurostar would be able to make a 'sound business case' to the department to repopulate Ebsfleet and Ashford with border force officers.

 

(2) Re-opening Ebslfeet and Ashford comes with costs - there are terminals to keep clean =heated + cooled,the provision of refreshment facilities, employment of station / platform staff etc. PLUS neither Ebslfeet or Ashford have any provision for duty free shopping (the designers not imagining this nation would ever be stupid enough to commit economic suicide and leave the single market) which is viewed as an important contributor to cross channel operators income these days.

 

(3) Even before the pandemic the travelling public made it abundantly clear that they did not want to use Ashford and Ebsfleet in large numbers! Yes Ashford had a pretty poor service in its later years but when it first opened the service was good - and hardly anyone used it in spite of that! Meanwhile Ebsfleet, although a later addition to Eurostar, was also reported to be disappointing in the numbers choosing to join Eurostar and its rather foolish to imagine that demand will suddenly materialise at either location were Eurostar to resume operations at said stations.

 

your totally missing the point.

 

immigration officials should/ could not be a burden to the tax payer… simply do what other countries do and add a “tax” onto the ticket. Its usually less than a fiver, as at the end of the day its a quick flick of your passport taking less than a minute.. £5*60 mins = £300 per hour per officer… thats surely enough to pay off g4s, a few ministers extra buddies etc.

 

Airport/Port officials should be supply and demand, not a tight constrained budget.

 

it shouldnt be Eurostar needs a business case to the home office, it should be “this is what we want, how much”?”.

 

my guess this is a French thing,  inbound travellers are screened juxtaposed in Europe before boarding to the UK.. all that awaits arrivals in the UK is a relatively board man with a dog.

Why would France want to reduce boarding issues, the passengers a captive market any which way, why do they care for UK delays ?

Edited September 25, 2023 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

22 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

your totally missing the point.

 

immigration officials should/ could not be a burden to the tax payer… simply do what other countries do and add a “tax” onto the ticket. Its usually less than a fiver, as at the end of the day its a quick flick of your passport taking less than a minute.. £5*60 mins = £300 per hour per officer… thats surely enough to pay off g4s, a few ministers extra buddies etc.

 

Airport/Port officials should be supply and demand, not a tight constrained budget.

 

it shouldnt be Eurostar needs a business case to the home office, it should be “this is what we want, how much”?”.

 

my guess this is a French thing,  inbound travellers are screened juxtaposed in Europe before boarding to the UK.. all that awaits arrivals in the UK is a relatively board man with a dog.

Why would France want to reduce boarding issues, the passengers a captive market any which way, why do they care for UK delays ?

 

I'm not missing the point - but you are display a certain amount of nieveity about how this Government is operating.

 

Eurostar (or indeed any private company) can offer all the money it wants but if HM Government are not interested then it won't happen! (particularly as if the Government did you would have a whole heap of 'journalists' going on about 'Government corruption' and bringing up the spectre of 'cash in brown envelopes' which caused the Tories so much trouble in the John Major years)

 

It doesn't matter whether immigration officials should be seen as a burden on the tax payer, the reality is they are simply because their wages are paid for by the Home office and not Eurostar / Heathrow / Dover /etc - and in case you hadn't noticed the Chancellor has been busy implementing departmental budget freezes to take the spiralling costs of financing the nations debt while the Ho is also struggling with the costs of dealing with the huge numbers of migrants arriving in small boats.

 

Pre-Covid It took a hell of a lot of lobbying for Eurostar to get said Home Office to be willing to set up an operation in Amsterdam (the HO were initially insistent that marching everyone off the train at Brussels or Lille was all it would countenance precisely because of the extra costs of setting up yet another border post) so there is pretty much zero chance they will agree to setting up further hubs - particularly when so many of the current hubs are having difficulty recruiting staff (and remember that as with all Government employees, Border Force wages have been going down compared to inflation as the Government caps wage rises removing one of the most effective recruiting tools).

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

22 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I'm not missing the point - but you are display a certain amount of nieveity about how this Government is operating.

 

Eurostar (or indeed any private company) can offer all the money it wants but if HM Government are not interested then it won't happen! (particularly as if the Government did you would have a whole heap of 'journalists' going on about 'Government corruption' and bringing up the spectre of 'cash in brown envelopes' which caused the Tories so much trouble in the John Major years)

 

Walking around with brown envelopes is not what i’m suggesting.

 

 

22 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

It doesn't matter whether immigration officials should be seen as a burden on the tax payer, the reality is they are simply because their wages are paid for by the Home office and not Eurostar / Heathrow / Dover /etc - and in case you hadn't noticed the Chancellor has been busy implementing departmental budget freezes to take the spiralling costs of financing the nations debt while the Ho is also struggling with the costs of dealing with the huge numbers of migrants arriving in small boats.

 

presents oppourtunity…

 

22 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Pre-Covid It took a hell of a lot of lobbying for Eurostar to get said Home Office to be willing to set up an operation in Amsterdam (the HO were initially insistent that marching everyone off the train at Brussels or Lille was all it would countenance precisely because of the extra costs of setting up yet another border post) so there is pretty much zero chance they will agree to setting up further hubs - particularly when so many of the current hubs are having difficulty recruiting staff (and remember that as with all Government employees, Border Force wages have been going down compared to inflation as the Government caps wage rises removing one of the most effective recruiting tools).

 

 

 

 

 

and here you demonstrated the art of the possible.

 

Now let me explain how it could work, with some imagination…

 

The TSA in the US is entirely funded by a tax on air tickets. It was introduced to fund airport security post Sept 11th.

 

Each ticket includes that TSA tax to fund security apparatus at the airport.

More passengers, more resources, less passengers less resources.

it now funds 30% as a revenue stream to the government, in otherwords its so successful its a net contributor to the government.

 

no brown envelopes are required.

The TSA is ready and will to expand wherever demand is required, as it generates revenue.

How much does it cost ?

$5.60 each way… c£4.

 

That isnt going to break anyones bank.

Why does this country have to be so hard ?

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by adb968008

[RANGERS]

The principle of maximizing revenue against capacity is something that airlines have been practicing for decades and Le Shuttle are doing exactly the same, with the crucial difference that Le Shuttle’s capacity isn’t governed by them, it’s governed by the capacity of the terminal’s to process the traffic and at the present moment that’s UK Border Force’s capacity to process border checks.

 

The first sign of this was last year when coach capacity was restricted to two per train on a max of two trains per hour at peak times, this as a result of the time taken to process a coach and the number of UKBF staff available to do it. It did result in additional car capacity, cars take around 2-4 mins as against up to 40 for a coach.

 

Since then, it’s become apparent that trains are leaving with space available and cars booked on those departures are still in the queue at border control, so to ensure that the revenue matches the number of cars that can actually board, the price per car has to rise.

[phil-b259]

40 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

and here you demonstrated the art of the possible.

 

Now let me explain how it could work, with some imagination…

 

The TSA in the US is entirely funded by a tax on air tickets. It was introduced to fund airport security post Sept 11th.

 

Each ticket includes that TSA tax to fund security apparatus at the airport.

More passengers, more resources, less passengers less resources.

it now funds 30% as a revenue stream to the government, in otherwords its so successful its a net contributor to the government.

 

no brown envelopes are required.

The TSA is ready and will to expand wherever demand is required, as it generates revenue.

How much does it cost ?

$5.60 each way… c£4.

 

That isnt going to break anyones bank.

Why does this country have to be so hard ?

 

 

 

 

Whether something could work is not what we are discussing (there is nothing wrong with what you have set down)

 

After all Archimedes said, “Give to me a fulcrum on which to plant my lever, and I will move the world.” - and our understanding of the laws of physics shows that he wasn't wrong.

 

The issue is what you are proposing is NOT how the current business of UK Government works (TSA is simply chucked into the general taxation pot to help fund things like the NHS, paying pensions, etc), plus given the position of the current Government in the polls, expanding Eurostar services is going to be non-exsistent on their political agenda.

 

Moreover what your propose, however good it might be, would no doubt require fresh parliamentary legislation - and there isn't much time for that sort of thing given the current parliamentary agenda / backlog of things the Tories want to push through before they have to face the electorate.

 

Or to put it another way does increasing the number of Eurostar passengers help them get re-elected in 12-18 months time.... - I suspect not.

 

As for brown envelopes, the point is that the press in the country are very quick to condemn what they see as 'Government corruption' One one side you would have the libertarian side 'cash for extra Government services' would be seen as business trampling over democracy while on the capitalist side there would be houls of protest about favouritism / unfair subsides / bias towards certain business activities. Are those really the sort of headlines a Government wants to read when its main focus is on its political survival at the polls?

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by phil-b259

[adb968008]

41 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Whether something could work is not what we are discussing (there is nothing wrong with what you have set down)

 

After all Archimedes said, “Give to me a fulcrum on which to plant my lever, and I will move the world.” - and our understanding of the laws of physics shows that he wasn't wrong.

 

The issue is what you are proposing is NOT how the current business of UK Government works (TSA is simply chucked into the general taxation pot to help fund things like the NHS, paying pensions, etc), plus given the position of the current Government in the polls, expanding Eurostar services is going to be non-exsistent on their political agenda.

 

Moreover what your propose, however good it might be, would no doubt require fresh parliamentary legislation - and there isn't much time for that sort of thing given the current parliamentary agenda / backlog of things the Tories want to push through before they have to face the electorate.

 

Or to put it another way does increasing the number of Eurostar passengers help them get re-elected in 12-18 months time.... - I suspect not.

 

As for brown envelopes, the point is that the press in the country are very quick to condemn what they see as 'Government corruption' One one side you would have the libertarian side 'cash for extra Government services' would be seen as business trampling over democracy while on the capitalist side there would be houls of protest about favouritism / unfair subsides / bias towards certain business activities. Are those really the sort of headlines a Government wants to read when its main focus is on its political survival at the polls?

 

 

i think a lot of them know their survival is at risk. They dont need Polls.

our one grabbed a lib dem seat last time, he’s no chance of keeping it. I actually feel sorry for him, as hes not a bad bloke and has helped a lot of people out.. but people vote for the party not the man, and last time it was an manipulated election that skewed a result.

 

I bet a lot of them have their cv’s polished and ready.

 

On that note it doesnt matter what they do, and things like HS2 are civil servants forcing their hand to cold hard reality of the countries position.. if your train has derailed whatever you do the train will crash…its just a matter of when the impact hits you.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by adb968008

[roythebus1]

The simple answer is to do away with the need for strict border controls, it's called "freedom of movement". It was a good idea a few years ago when I could leave my house and be in Calais in just over an hour.

[Enterprisingwestern]

10 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

The simple answer is to do away with the need for strict border controls, it's called "freedom of movement". It was a good idea a few years ago when I could leave my house and be in Calais in just over an hour.

 

Don't mention the B word!!!!!

 

Mike.

[roythebus1]

I didn't. :)

[admiles]

15 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

The simple answer is to do away with the need for strict border controls, it's called "freedom of movement". It was a good idea a few years ago when I could leave my house and be in Calais in just over an hour.

 

Nah, it would never work........🤔

[The Stationmaster]

For the record - and unless things have changed considerably - unlike airports and seaports Eurostar were at one time paying HMG for the provision of Immigration staff.  The reason why UK Immigration staff were withdrawn from the trains was because of the very high charges levied by HMG for actually putting them on the trains - Eurostar bit the bullet and decided they could no longer afford that luxury .

 

I don't know if Eurostar or HMG pay for the British Immigration Officers at Gare du Nord and that might well now be HMG?

[adb968008]

Splendid isolation.

 

We are a nation of mutineers on the HMS Bounty looking for some remote island in which to hang out, burn our boats, eat coconuts and form a new colony.

Edited September 26, 2023 by adb968008

[roythebus1]

To revive this topic a bit, we've just seen "the tunnel" flooded. the tunnel under the Thames, not under the channel! No E* or Javelin services for a day, 32,000 people stranded in St.Pancras for over a day! STP has very limited passenger capacity compared to the purpose-built emporium at Waterloo,  another waste of public money. Along with high winds in the channel over the holida saw the M20 used as a lorry park, the multi-million brexit barriers that were installed over the last 5 years for use in such instances were not used. why spend so much money on something that is useless. But look on the brightside, no "small boat crossings" reported on Christmas Day!

 

I mentioned earleir  lengthy delay on ET a couple of years ago, over 8 hours at Calais. when we eventually got loaded on the train, it left with about 2/3rds of it space empty, despite Calais terminl being gridlocked.

 

A recent trip by DFDS was about half the price of the cheapest ET ticket, £68 each way. Cheapest ET was about £120 each way at some unearthly hour. an I suspect there were few takers for the ET services even at those prices.

[cessna152towser]

28 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

To revive this topic a bit, we've just seen "the tunnel" flooded. the tunnel under the Thames, not under the channel! No E* or Javelin services for a day, 32,000 people stranded in St.Pancras for over a day!

My thoughts entirely.  People stranded in the run up to Christmas due to a strike of Channel Tunnel staff and again in the run up to New Year due to a tunnel under the Thames being flooded, and with no alternative transport offered by Eurostar to their customers.   I have used Eurostar a few times in the past when it left from Waterloo so it never needed to cross the Thames (although it did so on one trip, via Chelsea Bridge, to do a reversal at Kensington Olympia) and it had a choice of several routes to reach Ashford.      I no longer use Eurostar, it has become unreliable, as have the trains to London from the north, and I prefer to fly nowadays which is cheaper and quicker, with Newcastle Airport just an hour's drive from home.

[Northmoor]

6 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

To revive this topic a bit, we've just seen "the tunnel" flooded. the tunnel under the Thames, not under the channel! No E* or Javelin services for a day, 32,000 people stranded in St.Pancras for over a day! STP has very limited passenger capacity compared to the purpose-built emporium at Waterloo,  another waste of public money. Along with high winds in the channel over the holida saw the M20 used as a lorry park, the multi-million brexit barriers that were installed over the last 5 years for use in such instances were not used. why spend so much money on something that is useless. But look on the brightside, no "small boat crossings" reported on Christmas Day!

 

I mentioned earleir  lengthy delay on ET a couple of years ago, over 8 hours at Calais. when we eventually got loaded on the train, it left with about 2/3rds of it space empty, despite Calais terminl being gridlocked.

 

A recent trip by DFDS was about half the price of the cheapest ET ticket, £68 each way. Cheapest ET was about £120 each way at some unearthly hour. an I suspect there were few takers for the ET services even at those prices.

What I didn't see yesterday was if Eurostar ran trains to France, starting from Ebbsfleet and/or Ashford, with South Eastern honouring tickets to allow people to make the connection.  I assume Eurostar and SET decided instead to wait for the water to be pumped out, blame "operational difficulties" and do nothing? 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Northmoor

[Grovenor]

While an obvious possibility, could you see the various organisations invlved actually being able to set it up in less than a week.

It would take them that long to find the keys to open up and staff the border posts, just sending the staff dow from St P on the train, unthinkable. 🙂

[adb968008]

So many people say things are impossible, yet we can send the navy to the mid east, set up a border post and evac civilians in days by ship,. We can send the army to Afghanistan and evac civilians from a war zone issuing visas on the spot, and if you've got an MPs family stuck in a war then evacuation can be arranged immediately.

 

But  we cant drive 40 miles down the road, turn on the lights at an existing facility built for purpose and terminate Eurostar there instead of London, just as they did in 2012… because apparently its just too hard,… Ebbsfleet is suffering Long Covid apparently, the stations number 6,999,899 on the NHS waiting list before it can be cured.

 

god forbid we ever find our shores close to a war.. our civil service would surrender before war was declared, the unions would side with the enemy from the outset. As for the rest, they just walk round saying “Thats not in my contract, and you cant do it either”.

Edited December 31, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Grovenor said:

While an obvious possibility, could you see the various organisations invlved actually being able to set it up in less than a week.

It would take them that long to find the keys to open up and staff the border posts, just sending the staff dow from St P on the train, unthinkable. 🙂

I bet the owners of Ashford International could find the keys very quickly as it would be very much in their financial inerest to do so .   Iwouldn;t say anything like the dame for the b various Uk and french givt agencies involved.

 

But don't  forget they then have to move back and Eurostar were more or less back to normal working for departures from first thing this morning - several delayed departures but so far no trains cancelled our of what is booked to run today (according to Real Time Trains).  

[Grovenor]

They could move back even quicker since they would be able to jump on the first Eurostar. I was just using the keys as an illustration of the absurdity. All it needs is willpower and a bit of cooperation from those involved.

[Ron Ron Ron]

You have to marvel at the absurdity of suggesting that Eurostar staff at St. Pancras, could all be herded onto coaches  (if you could even get hold of coaches at no notice, 2 days before NY, in the holiday period), or put on trains, rushed down to Ebbsfleet and/or Ashford, to quickly open up mothballed facilities within a few hours of the sort of disruption encountered the other day.

 

Even if you could get them there so quickly, how many could you muster, as St. Pancras Int would still have to be manned to deal with departing passengers turning up there and needing to be dealt with.

Then there’s staff training for the unfamiliar, smaller facilities; the provision of services for staff and passengers which will all be mothballed, out of use or removed; the lack of basics like toilet provision (all the toilets will have been drained down and closed for hygiene and safety reasons), no catering facilities, not even a coffee bar or stall, etc, etc.

 

Of course, all that could be dealt with, but it would need a contingency plan that would require Ebbsfleet and Ashford to be maintained in a state of constant readiness and staff taken there for periodic training, for what?  A once in 20 year occurrence?

 

The whole notion is plain silly.

 

.

[adb968008]

42 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

Of course, all that could be dealt with, but it would need a contingency plan that would require Ebbsfleet and Ashford to be maintained in a state of constant readiness and staff taken there for periodic training, for what?  A once in 20 year occurrence?

 

The whole notion is plain silly.

 

.

once in 20 years ? Really ?

 

So the whole argument for doing nothing rests on the idea of the toilets (in the international terminal) of an open domestic station dont work ?

 

Whats silly is building not one, not two but three an international stations and closing them, leaving them out of use and having all services run non stop past them.

 

Then complaining the only open station is crowded to excess, because a portion of the passengers cannot use the said closed stations.

 

Then running trains to part full capacity, and giving up that extra revenue because it cannot handle the volume.

They shouldnt need to be keeping a station ready for emergencies… they should be open.

This isnt 1953 either, modern social media exists and people can be quite adaptive… if word was out that Ebbsfleet was the end of the line, they would use cars….and make use of the massive car park.

Similarly if informed that its an emergency and the loos dont work, they could use the train loos… afterall its not exactly a rare occurence the loos dont work is it ?

 

As I said if it was a war, there would be an immediate solution which would be the same solution, so its only will power preventing it.

 

Would it help everyone, no, would it help many.. yes.

Edited January 1 by adb968008

[Northmoor]

33 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Of course, all that could be dealt with, but it would need a contingency plan that would require Ebbsfleet and Ashford to be maintained in a state of constant readiness and staff taken there for periodic training, for what?  A once in 20 year occurrence?

 

The whole notion is plain silly.

I totally agree, the idea of our railways' operators having a contingency plan is just ridiculous.  Which is precisely what is wrong in this situation.